Zone Valve Replacement/Wiring?


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Old 04-09-08, 08:23 PM
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Unhappy Zone Valve Replacement/Wiring?

after reading many posts already i realized how inept I am in regards to plumbing systems and the wiring so please bear with my remedial explanation below.

finally finished with all permits and total remodel of my sisters house ......last problem (not even affecting permit though) came to fixing boiler portion. original owner had REWIRED this 2-zone system to be controlled by only upstairs Thermostat. basically it looks like jumper wires were added from 1 zone valve to other z/valve. One z/valve is fine but the other has a broken (no cover and broken motor mounts to acuator) motor assembly and does not appear to function "properly" all the time. cover says WR (assuming Wayne-Rodgers) but inside has Honeywell Synchron.... searched for 2 days online now and cannot find this Zvalve anywhere...

Two questions.
1. Where can i get new "powerhead" Zone valve model info on the equipment currently installed ..... as it seems i have 2 different brands ?? Unless you tell me WR uses Honeywell products...

From reading postings on this forum site it appears i can easily replace the entire powerhead assembly if not more than 20 yrs old so thinking this can be done without having to drain system and resweat..... .yess???

2. there is this BLACK plastic pc underneath each zone valve (mounted vertical with Manual/Open switch on top) and there are about 9 blue wires coming out .... some jump over to connect to other zone valve and others jump down and connect to wires coming from Aquastat (honeywell L8048G ) ..... Can't I just replace BOTH of these powerhead units, and just wire each Therm to ind. zone valves ? Besides previous owner wanting to control BOTH zones with one Therm I really do not understand why the 2 zone valves are wired to each other,..... FULLY understand wiring to AQUASTAT but not to each other....

So far i have replaced old 2-wire therm. (upstairs and downstairs) for HEAT ONLY therms and they seem to somewhat work but cannot find wiring schematics online for rewiring what was done by original owner on the zone valves.... don't want each Therm. to call for heat and have both floors heat up....

I have found wiring schematics for the Aquastat so okay with that... i think... ha....... but really need to find out how to find out what Z/Valve i have, what should i replace and MAINLY how to wire it properly ...... The "broken" one is VERY hot to the touch and i feel dangerous....... did not test voltage but figured if i got the wiring schematics I could rewire and this should help fix many of these issues....

Sorry for so much useless info.... sure it could be better info but this is what I have now..... ANY assistance would be HUGELY appreciated.

Regards
rf
 
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Old 04-09-08, 09:03 PM
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The WR stands for White-Rodgers.

Honeywell makes components that are used in many different products by a variety of manufacturers.

Yes, the power heads are usually replaceable IF the particular zone valve has not been discontinued by the manufacturer.

Many of the connections would be shared by the two zone valves even when properly wired to separate thermostats.
 
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Old 04-10-08, 04:37 AM
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Furd
Noted. Is there a specific place on the current Valve i can see if it is truly WR or Honeywell? Like I said, cover stated WR but inside Synchron was stamped with "honeywell 0510"

Noted wiring "shared but this is totally a mess and never saw something wired like this ever on zone valves.... usually a nice clean cable (ONE) coming down the pipes but this has 9 BLUE wires coming from underneath..... I can assume 2 are for the Microswitch (inside bottom of ZV) and can guess 2 are the power portions (24v as it looks like the inside Aquastat steps the power down with transformer inside)

but really have no clue where to get wiring schematics for this and without getting right article i am running into roadblocks.....
one distinguishing factor i just remember is the back (copper pipe portion) appears to be SCREWED --- almost as if the Actuator/powerhead is screwed into the pipe assembly...

Again, any help in distinguishing WHAT BRAND this is would be appreciated..... if nothing concrete it appears the easiest course would be drain system, cut/replace one zvalve, get wiring schematics with new purchase so i will know how that is wired and then try to test the 4 electric lines to figure the old one out.....cannot go by color since all are BLUE... all 9 of them!! ha.

Please help!
thanks all
robert
 
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Old 04-10-08, 09:30 AM
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I'd almost bet my life it is a White-Rodgers valve. Microswitch is also a Honeywell product, at least at the time that valve was installed; I think they sold off the Microswitch division fairly recently.

As for the wiring it may be easier to tear it all out and start over if you cannot trace the individual wires.

Pictures always help in identifying products and problems. More are better than fewer and they do need to be clear. Close ups and also from a distance so we can view the entire setup.

Pictures need to be uploaded to a photo hosting site like photobucket.com or villagephotos.com first and the URLs posted here.
 
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Old 04-10-08, 10:30 AM
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Furd
Noted and thanks.
will take some digitals tonight and upload this evening.

thank you
rf
 
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Old 04-10-08, 06:48 PM
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uploaded images to photobucket....
attaching link now below

http://s306.photobucket.com/albums/n...bert/Plumbing/

hope this link works as have not used this site before.....

Anyway, also read the back of the WR cover and it says White Rodgers type # 13A02-102, 25v input with 2 amp aux. switch.... appears it has been discontinued if this is accurate.....

Any thoughts once seeing the digitals?

thank you again !!!
robert
 
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Old 04-10-08, 07:24 PM
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Any thoughts once seeing the digitals?
It appears that you've had some very creative spiders working on your wiring !

Read this thread. The zone valves appear to be the same as yours. Maybe you can better understand your valves if you look at this first ?

http://forum.doityourself.com/showthread.php?t=340438
 
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Old 04-11-08, 07:33 AM
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NJ Trooper
AWESOME ... exactly what I needed.

THANK YOU !!!

last question..... assuming that I can turn off boiler electric while working on this ZV and remove / replace.... but only concern is this being so old is there a concern i should have about hot water coming out during this change? not really...right? only changing outside assembly and not the ball so i am thinking ok....

Anyway, with wiring schematics you forwarded I think i can get these "spiders" more in line !! thanks again!!

Robert
 
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Old 04-11-08, 03:07 PM
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I'm not sure if you can change the powerhead on those valves without draining... maybe someone else does ?

I can tell you this though...

www.patriot-supply.com has repair parts available.

The complete head is part number F19-0187 and is a little over a hundred bucks.

They also have the motor individually.

Here's a link to a PDF on the White-Rodgers website that lists the repair parts.

http://www.white-rodgers.com/wrdhom/..._06_pg0148.pdf
 
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Old 04-11-08, 03:15 PM
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NJ trooper
thanks again....
one last question..... wiring diagram was exactly my type/model but has 3 zone...... i will revise based on only 2 zone valves.

However, what are the yellow dots for on the zone valve wiring schematics ?? Assuming from Green lines the first yellow dot is just a junction...... but the 2nd yellow dot on the diagram (white wire - from 3rd ZV to 3rd Therm) shows in the middle of the run..... confused me..... and made me think i am missing something

sorry to be a pest but figured ASK rather than GUESS....

rewiring tmo to "clean up" and get ready for new ZV install..... will try to get new ZV @ local Plumbing supply but seems these are really old and not carried locally in a large supply

anyway, will advise how it goes and thanks again for your time and feedback/help!!!!

rf
 
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Old 04-11-08, 03:21 PM
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one more PDF

This PDF is the one for your zone valve and includes wiring examples. Should be very helpful to you. I suggest printing it out and saving it for future reference. It wasn't real easy to find on their website!

13A02 installation PDF
 
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Old 04-11-08, 03:24 PM
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Don't forget that that other thread you are looking at is for reference only! That's the way HIS system is wired, and may not be exactly what you need to do ! Check out that last PDF file before you proceed.

I think the yellow dots in his diagram are WIRE NUTS that are connecting various wires together.

From what I can see in that install PDF, you MUST drain the system before changing the powerhead ...
 
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Old 04-16-08, 07:15 PM
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NJ trooper / others

update...

Tried 6 plumbing supply houses over the last week and NO ONE carries this particular White-rodgers ZV (#13A02-102) OR replacement ...... all told me I had to cut and sweat a new one.....

purchased new HOneywell ZV instead as this had a sticker on the outside of the box that showed it would be a replacement powerhead unit for my White Rodgers old ZV....

Good deal.... it is 4 wire (2 red (microswitch) + Orange and Yellow (for Motor)) which makes sense since i have 3 wires from aquastat relay and the last would be to T/stat....

I have mapped and REMAPPED doing the new wiring for both the good, working White Rodgers (zone 1) and this new Honeywell (zone 2) zone valves but have a couple of questions....

I Want to know WHY i am wiring a certain way.... drives me crazy just to wire something and not know the WHY.... So

1. my aquastat is old (honeywell L8048G) model with temperature well probe....... and I canot find anything online for this model...... it has T, TV and Z screws. cannot see but after looking for over a week online I assume the Z is jumpered with a W terminal somewhere on this ... but not really important. What are the T, TV and Z screws for ?? read one online posting that seem to state the T and TV were to control the circulator pump. is this right?

2. since this aquastat provides transformer power for all thermostats AND i only have two t/stats then there should be no issues for power. Read one posting that said these internals could only handle 3 thermostats without having to have another transformer installed...... If i ever add another zone to the current setup (2zones only) can i add a 3rd thermostat without issues??

3. two red wires coming from each zone valve microswitch.... assuming not important wiring each one specific as both wires SAME color..... pls. just confirm.

4. Orange and Yellow wires from ZV motor ----- same question..... don't want to rely on previous wiring on site as it seemed messed up (one ZV broken AND running HOT to touch -- other is perfectly fine -- seems everything working fine for heat but wiring could be reversed or not done 100
% properly and could be causing this motor to run "hot" ... anyway, is there a specific Wire the Orange and/or Yellow ZV motors SHOULD go to or can they be intermixed as long as they are connected to THERM AND CIRC. ??

5. Aquastat wiring colors seem to be different from what I see online vs. what is coming from my aquastat relay.
currently T=white wire, TZ=green and Z=Red..... from what i saw online this does not appear to be color-coded properly..... any feedback?

Sorry, seems like basic questions, I know, but this old Aquastat is killing me >> online has newer models (not this one) and hard to find out what these do.....

Anyway...... last is just a summary of what/how this basic system seems to work.......The way this seems to work to me is >>>
110v line power in to Aquastat... Aquastat steps down power to 24v only out to Therms/ZValves.... however, aquastat feeds Full 110v power to Boiler and circ.pump ......

the 24vpower to zone valve get directed out to each zones Thermostat..... WHEN HEAT IS CALLED FOR the power/circuit closes and power goes back to zone valve and opens normally closed Zone Valve.....

Upon opening zone valve via electronics (45 second full opening) then WHAT tells circulator to start ?? Zone valve END micro-switch?? assuming signal goes from ZV (upon heat call) and then signals Aquastat .... Aquastat then STARTS Circulator AND boiler fire to both begin..... Boiler to heat the water if temperature falls below LOW LIMIT (as set on Aquastat)..... Aquastat also gets signal (close) from thermostats once desired heat is reached.... breaking "series circuit" to them (Circulator pump and boiler) causing them both to STOP .... CANNOT CLOSE Zvalve until Circulator pump stopped ... is this why it takes 45 seconds for ZV to close???

Anyway, sorry to be a pest.... just really want to understand WHY and HOW all these things work together ... helps me understand the flow and electric setup better.....most important is question # 1 about what each screw terminal means.....

any comments would be appreciated.....

Best Regards
rf
 
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Old 04-16-08, 08:57 PM
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You could have ordered the parts from Patriot Supply... there was a link in previous post.

The functional replacement for your aquastat is the L8148J model, and you can get the PDF file for that one here:

L8148J installation PDF

Figure 7 shows the wiring diagram for a maximum of TWO zone valves running on the internal transformer. If you add a third zone, you MUST re-wire and use an external 24VAC transformer.

Figure 3 shows a basic single zone, and a schematic diagram of the aquastat.

The jumpers on TP - Z - W don't need to be changed, leave them the way they are. They would be used only in certain special cases (explained in the PDF file).

Terminals T and TV are the terminals that create the 'BOILER DEMAND' signal, and not only the circulator, but also the burner are controlled here. If you only had one zone, your thermostat would wire there. Since you have two zones, the ENDSWITCHES of you zone valves wire there. When either zone valve opens, it creates a boiler demand signal that would run the boiler.

The polarity of the RED and/or the YELLOW/orange wires doesn't matter. The yellow and orange are the motor, and the reds are the endswitch.

QUESTION: The new Honeywell valve has TWO YELLOW wires for the motor, correct ? When you say Yellow and Orange, you are referring to the wires on the old White-Rodgers valves, correct ?

You said:
currently T=white wire, TZ=green and Z=Red.
Is there a typo there ? There is no TZ terminal on your aquastat, did you mean TV ?

What is important here is not the actual colors used, but that you get the correct terminals connected to the correct places. What color code "on-line" are you referring to ?

110v line power in to Aquastat... Aquastat steps down power to 24v only out to Therms/ZValves.... however, aquastat feeds Full 110v power to Boiler and circ.pump ......
Not exactly. (unless you live in Podunk, you don't have 110VAC ... Let's change that to 120VAC). When you say that 120VAC is going to circ pump from aquastat, the answer is yes. When you say 120VAC goes to Boiler, answer is not really... the gas valve on your system is _probably_ 24VAC.

the 24vpower to zone valve get directed out to each zones Thermostat..... WHEN HEAT IS CALLED FOR the power/circuit closes and power goes back to zone valve and opens normally closed Zone Valve.....
That is correct.

The rest is mostly correct also.

When zone valve OPENS on heat call from thermostat, the ENDSWITCH signals the AQUASTAT to start the circulator, and fire the burner if necessary. When the zone valves close, the 'boiler demand' signal is removed from the T and TV terminals, and shuts down the burner and the circ. Ideally, the circulator will shut down before the zone valve closes completely.

The three wires from your aquastat:

TV = 24VAC COMMON

T = BOILER DEMAND (boiler will fire when connected to TV)

Z = 24VAC HOT power for zone valve motors. NOTE: because there are jumpers on the aquastat, this could also be terminal TP, or W ... they are all connected together.

Before you embark on this project, please tell us what is wired to terminals B1 B2 B3 on your aquastat. I want to make sure I know what gas valve you have. I am assuming so far that you have a 24 V gas valve, and it will be wired to B1 and B3 and there is no wire on B2 . Please confirm.
 
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Old 04-16-08, 10:36 PM
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I think this is what you need to do ... please check carefully before using ! It's late, I'm tired .

 
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Old 04-17-08, 04:47 AM
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For reference, I thought I would put this one up to show how your original valves might/could/should have been wired.

 
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Old 04-17-08, 08:38 AM
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NJ
Thank you!! don't know what you did in your past life but I am sure many people have told you how much a life-savor you are !! ha

quickly, I don't have a digital image to confirm the gas wiring so will go over to my sisters house tonight again and review to confirmB1, B2 and B3 wiring.... truly thought I saw only two but really was just looking for 2 wires per circ and boiler ....

i have in 2 places where I wrote TZ but sure you are correct with TV ....... will check this also....

mentioned "color coding" as online seems to offer many suggestions on wiring certain colors to certain terminals .... mine seemed to differ but again, ...maybe it was late and I was not reviewing it correctly..... see new Aquastat relay wiring your sent (Fig 7) and that makes more sense so will stay that route..... will check and email you on B2 terminal first before proceeding to insure .....

and yes... sorry .. jumped around too much but when I said Yellow/orange motor wires meant for the WR brand.... the new Honeywell are both Yellow (motor).....

Thank you again!!
rf
 
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Old 04-17-08, 09:32 AM
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quick update

** Yes, TV is the right Terminal screw... NOT TZ as I typed... sorry.

could not get answer on boiler part over phone as too much confusion with my wife there... so i will check this myself tonight...

wiring colors.... here is what generated that question

Current wiring from this aquastat
Z=Red
T==Green
TV = White

Online I read someone say
Z=common=Black
TV=HOT = Red
T=White
*** don't even have BLACK in this equation PLUS black tells me regular voltage so don't like this option if it is NOT CODE


Your suggestion is
TV=24vCommon=Green
T=White
Z=24vhot=Red

so my question was really IS there standards that say this is what each SHOULD be --- to help eliminate confusion for next poor soul that looks at this ..haha.....
Thinking of just changing to your email post as that makes sense

also, will do a diagram tonight from home on the current wiring as it differs GREATLY from what wiring schematics are here..... maybe this is why other WR-ZV is HOT to TOUCH ??? Will do the diagram but digesting what you are telling me in your email first.... makes sense when I just read your explanation and wiring your sent.... but then i look at MY CURRENT WIRING it truly gets me wondering how the heck this setup at my sisters house is working... too many differences in the wiring !! haha

anyway, more later tonight...
rf
 
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Old 04-17-08, 11:27 AM
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quick here too...

I thought I used the colors that were in your post regarding what was hooked to what.

Don't worry too much about the colors though... just use what's there, as long as both ends of the wire go where they should. Then, when you are done, put the diagram in a plastic bag, and staple it to a ceiling joist or somewhere that it won't get lost, near the boiler.

more later...
 
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Old 04-17-08, 03:01 PM
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I swapped the colors on my drawings around to match what you say is the current scheme. As long as the current wire is in good shape, go ahead and use it, don't worry about codes. If you leave a copy of diagram, future service ppl will be covered.

I think you will find that when you trace out the actual wiring that it's really not so different from what I've shown.

It may LOOK different at first, but when you start diagraming it, I'm hoping that it's the same. It can't really be any different and work at all. There is a possibility that the wiring to terms 1 and 2 on is reversed from what I've drawn. In practice, it makes not much difference, since it is AC after all. Wiring the way I've shown minimizes the use of jumpers and wire nuts, utilizing the extra terminals that are on the zone valve instead.. (for example, 6-2-2 are internally connected together, as are 3-3, and 4-4) ... and this is the reason W-R saw fit to put those terminals there I think!

The motor in the broken valve may be hot because it's defective ...

I'm anxious to see how it is actually wired. With all those blue wires, yer gonna be pulling out your hair trying to keep it all straight. You might look like me by the time yer done!
 
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Old 04-17-08, 07:24 PM
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haha.... Already pulling my hair out as everytime i drop by there is another item "on the list" ..... and I thought my wife's "honey do" list was never ending !! haha.

1. anyway, here is what I found out tonight...... this must be a REALLY OLD aquastat as it only has B1 and B2 terminals... does not even have a B3. Wired to a Robertshaw millivolt gas valve... sorry, didn't realize this was going to be involved in this but now it is.... .at least for wiring.
** Assume this is NON issue ... only that i need to remove link from TP to Z terminals.... well... there is NO TP terminal on this aquastat..... so no change for me.... right??

2. ref. to color coding/wiring... Noted and very clear ..... I was going to leave box ends, instructions AND receipts stapled together in sleeve on side of boiler now.... this way next person has a better idea.... along with Wiring diagrams you have sent....

3. makes since then to use Figure 7 wiring scheme but only question is the "end Switch" wiring...... nothing listed on these boxes on Fig.7 multizone wiring schematic so assume TOP TWO circles are for the END switches (2 RED Wires on Honeywell).
Assume then the bottom 3 circles (still in the "end switch" box diagram) would be for the motor -- especially since one of these come from T/stat directly.... but since I only have 2 wires (2yellow on the HWELL ZV and the Orange/yellow on teh WRodgers ZV) what is the 3rd post for?? does not appear to be used but curious why it is even in the diagram here......
*** finally, wiring shows a footnote saying to add jumper .... makes sense as #3 is one end of the end switch connector wires and # 4 is the other..... #4 seems to be jumped with # 2 position is one of the Honeywell end switch connectors also.... assume that is what it is meaning....

4. current wiring is almost the same as your 7:47am diagram you sent today --- except >
a. Thermostat wirings are different on each ..... one time the Red goes to #5 position.... .the other one the Red T/stat wire goes to # 6 position...... but as you said the polarity is not important so will just make sure , for mine, they are all going to the same position.....
b. my problem area seems to be in the "Bad" Zv --- it has the RED lead from upstairs T/stat pigtailed ---- one lead to position 5 on the ZV relay and one lead to the ORANGE of the ZV motor. actually , since you said polarity does not matter then i assume OK since #5 position usually has one motor wire soldered inside anyway.... they just pigtailed since solder connection inside broke I assume.......
other difference is the 2nd pigtail they added on BAD ZV .... other motor lead (yellow) pigtailed to wires coming to other zv (#1 position) AND to its own ZV position #1 too..... Again, since # 1 sockets both connected and usually soldered inside to other motor lead these seem perfectly fine .... just additional due to broken solder connections inside relay......

Please just confirm I can use Figure 7 wiring without changing due to the millivolt gas valve....

Thank you!!
rf
 
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Old 04-18-08, 03:10 PM
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OK, I might be a little confused again.

I was working with the premise that you would only be replacing ONE of the W-R valves, and that's why I drew the diagram with the W-R and the Honey...

Are you going to replace BOTH valves with the 8043s ?

I'll knock out a new drawing if you are.

** Assume this is NON issue ... so no change for me.... right??
Correct, leave the aquastat wiring just the way it is.

what is the 3rd post for?? does not appear to be used but curious why it is even in the diagram here......
The valves in Fig 7 are not the exact ones that you are using. Those have terminal screws on them. That 3rd terminal in the bottom row is not connected to anything internally in the ZV. It is a 'tie point' that can be used instead of a wire nut. If you are curious enough about this, and want to see how it would be used, let me know and I'll point you to some info. Otherwise, just pretend you don't see it. The two top terminals are the red wires, the two bottom right are the yellow.

Yes, the jumper from 4 to 2 on the W-R valve in my drawing _IS_ that jumper in Fig 7. If you trace out the wiring, you will see that one YELLOW on the Honey is connected to one RED via the jumper from 4 to 2. That jumper connects one side of the motor, and one side of the endswitch to 24VAC COMMON. (The W-R valve is a little different in this, because the thermostat switches the COMMON side of the power to the motor... but the end result is the same)

more later...
 
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Old 04-18-08, 03:52 PM
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no.. rest easy!! haha.... only one WR ZV to be replaced....

the wiring you gave me yest. seems to work and no changes, as confirmed, will be needed due to Gas Valve millivolt setup.

think I am finally ready to begin this 5 minute ordeal !! haha.... all this front-end work for seriously 30minutes worth of work...(pending Old ZV cooperating) hahah.... We should be lawyers so we could charge for all the upfront work too !!! haha.

Thanks again
rf
 
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Old 04-18-08, 04:37 PM
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OK then! I updated my 1:36AM drawing with a little more info...

Took out the TP terminal...

moved one of the yellows to show alternate wiring...

There are dotted lines added to show other locations that yellow could be connected; all electrically the same point (24VAC common)...

Added wire nutz...

Added some lines to the W-R valve to show which terminals are internally connected...

Added some wire colors...

moved stuff around...

I think that's it.

Oh yeah, and just wait till you get _MY_ bill ! ha ha ha ...
 

Last edited by NJT; 04-19-08 at 07:54 AM.
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Old 04-19-08, 10:21 PM
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Unhappy

NJ
i jinx'd myself !! haha 30 min turned into 5 hrs and still not up/running!!!

first, here are the issues.

1. old WR Zv could not be removed entirely as the back plate is soldered to the opening/twist screw --- taking this off would have meant opening the system ... might as well just cut the lines and soldered in new ZV .... so took off the power head to the new Honeywell ZV and the new end switch..... put those on old mounting plate of the White rodgers......obviously not using the bottom relay part so kind of made it interesting on HOW to wire..... followed what we discussed and then made some mod's.... see diagram on attached link

2.boiler now fires but circ. pump does not kick in --- assuming wiring but not sure how to check.... once boiler was on I tested and was getting full power from the aquastat board to the C1/c2 connections..... did not think this could be Trapped Air issue as i did not OPEN any part of the system....


3. do hear "click" at therms when asking for heat higher than current setting.... do hear a little "gurgling" of water from the pipes once this starts but figured this was normal.... again, how would air get into system if i did not open anything.???

4. when boiler fires it, obviously starts heating the water.... assuming water is inside the boiler..... the circ. pump never kicks in but even tested the leads on the TACO brand pump and they are also getting power. Now, the BAD part is that the pressure raises.... i turned off when it hit 30lbs.....normally is 15 lbs if i remembered correctly.....

Yes, Aquastat AND both ZV's are set to Auto.....


Please click on here and let me know what I messed up...... assuming I wired properly then would could be causing the pump NOT to kick on.....

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/n...wiring-jpg.jpg

let me know your thoughts as i am clueless why this will not function properly.... even took off the thermostat to insure IT was set up right..... 2 wires so hard to mess that up..... maybe the jumpers never set right on them but don't think t/stat jumper settings would cause circ. pump to not function....

Thank you!!!
rf
 
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Old 04-19-08, 10:42 PM
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one more thng..... used 18gg wiring to REDO everything .... from aquastat and after.....
assume this size wire is not a issue either.....
rf
 
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Old 04-20-08, 08:16 AM
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Now I'm _REALLY_ confused!

I don't understand what you mean about the replacement of the zone valve. I thought you were going to cut out the old W-R ZV and solder in the new Honeywell ZV ?

How did you manage to get the powerhead from the Honey attached to the body of the W-R ?

Did you remove only the MOTOR from the Honeywell valve ? and put that in the W-R ?

I'm lost... please explain further!

You wiring looks OK... all you've done is reversed the relative position of the t'stat and the motor on zone 2 ... I had common going to the motor and the endswitch, hot going to the t'stat. You've got common going to the t'stat and the endswitch, hot to the motor. Bottom line is that it will work.

If you've got 120VAC at the circulator, it should run. If it doesn't, that's a totally separate issue from the work that you've done on the ZVs .

The pressure increase is also probably a separate issue. Likely due to waterlogged expansion tank.

The wire size you used is fine.

I'm going to look at your original pics again and see if I can spot anything.

Before you did anything on this system, there was no pressure problem ? It is kinda weird that this started only after what you did, but my opinion is that you are caught in one of those "Coincidental Black Holes" ...
 
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Old 04-20-08, 08:31 AM
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more pics...

Robert, I need more pics... I want to see the expansion tank and the circulator. If there is a pressure relief valve, take one or two of that. Also, the pressure reducing valve (water feed), and the pressure gauge itself. Take a few that show the whole system for reference.

Let's back up a bit...

I asked if the system was functioning OK before the wiring / zone valve work... do you know what the cold and hot pressures actually were previously ? Or perhaps it wasn't noticed because you were focused on the valve wiring ? Is it possible that this condition existed prior ?

How do you know that the circulator isn't running ? The Taco pumps are very quiet when running.
 
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Old 04-20-08, 08:31 AM
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thought from reading and seeing "replacement for...." that i could just use the entire Honeywell BOX without having to cut/resweat..... that always causes air problems and having to spend a lot of time bleeding the system..... thought easier to keep system "closed" and have this done for her quickly so she would not be without heat........ plus besides the heating of the broken ZV and creative wiring the valve itself seemed to work ok.....

so basically just took the motor and endswitch of new Honeywell and put that into the WR ZV ... basically replacing what was there.....
** footnote... the new Endswitch has a small button switch on it.... what is that do?? pressed it accidentally once and it seemed to flip the aquastat manually.... pressed it again and nothing.....

anyway, when i feel the taco circ. it hums quietly but i really dont hear it turn on..... again, has power coming FROM aquastat AND gets to head of circ. pump...... thought i remembered from before that this was really LOUD...... however, after about 5 minutes the zones heat up and even the radiators seemed to be getting hot.... maybe it is much quieter than i remembered..... if 30-40 ft from boiler is getting hot then I assume maybe the Circ motor is working... good assumption or not???

how do i reduce the pressure ?? really want to keep around 15-20 lbs......

One last question..... how can i test to see if ZV is CLOSING !!!??

thank you
rf
 
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Old 04-20-08, 08:39 AM
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will take digitals in a few hours.....

pressure relief valve comes directly out of boiler and down...

cold and/or hot pressure never got much past 20lbs.... 30 lbs seemed way too high..... never saw this get this high BEFORE ... cold or hot.....

focus last night was getting the wiring right.... based on the REVISION to the ZV i had to do once I realized i could not replace old WR spring assemblies, etc......

Anyway, previous post and yours seem to say Taco MIGHT be working .... i'm just imagining something louder.... but if radiotors 40 ft from boiler is hot then I am wondering , again, if this is truly working and I just don't notice.....

old green expansion tank is floor level from boiler and sounded "hard" if that makes sense.... did not sound empty ..... when i tapped it last night......

will take other digitals later when i go over.....

what happens if pressure builds past 30lbs?? seems top of this pressure valve states 60lbs.... assume if it hits 50 lbs or so then the boiler will automatically blow open from the pressure relief valve..... yes? just dont want to be surprised.... haha

thanks again
 
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Old 04-21-08, 06:51 AM
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good news / bad news .... FOR ME !!! haha

** Tested tire valve on exp tank last night and ONLY WATER came out.... no such thing as AIR ...haha....
going to replace this today but concerned on other issues... see below.


** ZV 1 (1st flr - old WR type - not broken before) -- works like a charm !! ... see the open/close function happening , boiler goes on properly once calling for heat, etc.....

** ZV 2 (2nd flr - new version -- WR ballvalve/new Honeywell motor/switch) -- seemed to work ok the other day but now the motor just wants to keep spinning -- do not see normal OPEN/CLOSE for this valve. also, therm upstairs is digital model so hard to see if functioning properly.... never makes boiler fire even when i make request 90degrees and room is at 70... should be making boiler demand ...but does not.... took a wire and held to two wires on t/stat (Red/Wht) .... slight spark so think power is getting up here.... but still does not call for boiler.... Solution??>> since I have to drain full system to change the Exotrol Exp. tank then i might as well CUT/sweat the new honeywell ZV fully now.... no use playing with mixed parts that might not be compatible...

*** noticed sign on the boiler relief valve shows 30psi.... however, boiler pressure gauge was up to 45lbs last night (during firing ) but this valve DID NOT OPEN !! that's a bad thing ... right??? I did not open this myself as thought i heard many years ago that older models open once and then you need to replace.... maybe a wife's tale or i just did not understand it --- but shouldn't this relief valve have opend IF the pressure inside was truly 45 lbs??

Worried that if this is NOT fixed by replacing the expanision tank that this boiler will , literally, blow up!! how can i check the Boilers pressure relief valve? or should i just change when I am changing everything else??


digitals on attached link below for "setup" .....

http://s306.photobucket.com/albums/n...t/NewPlumbing/


Thanks!!!
rf
 
  #32  
Old 04-21-08, 08:24 AM
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The thermostat does NOT control the boiler or circulator, the thermostat controls the zone valve and the zone valve end switch controls the circulator via the circulator relay which, through the aquastat, controls the boiler.

If the zone valve is NOT stopping in the open position then the end switch for the valve motor is not working properly. It could be a mechanical problem or an electrical problem.

Absolutely change the safety valve.


Do not listen to anyone that tries to tell you to not test the safety valve at least once a year by pulling the test handle. You cannot know if is in working condition unless you test it. Replace the safety valve every five years.

Replace the pressure and temperature gauge if you have the slightest doubt as to its operation.
 
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Old 04-21-08, 08:55 AM
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Furd
Noted and thanks

assuming the "frankenstein" setup i made (WR housing with Honeywell motor/endswitch) just caused mechanics not to work together properly.... will find out later today as I will just replace this ZV totally

re: boiler safety valve... noted and clear... even if i tested this current valve and it works then I think i should still replace while I am working on all this ... i see the pressure go up so high and this is rated @ 30lbs.... if it did not go off then assuming something is not right...... will replace this too.....

Pressure gauge.... worked before AND showed me that i had a problem with the expansion tank (as per previous postings with NJ trooper) ... .so really feel ok with this valve....... temp seems correct (based on settings made on Aquastat ) .... so going to leave this one alone....

think outstanding questions are:
1. due to setup (as seen in todays image postings) I think the ENTIRE system has to be drained.... thinking of using spicket located under the circ. pump but not sure if there is a valve that keeps water from flowing if power not connected..... this seems like the LOWEST valve point i can find..... any other suggestions? since replacing the expansion tank, boiler pressure valve AND 1 ZV think I need entire system empty.....

2. any places where I should add cut-off valves for easier replacements later on??

3. upstairs and downstairs zones.... .once all work is done and ready to turn system back on how do i do that ??? Fill Water system first by holding down pressure reducing valve ?? or does the boiler automatically fill based on settings? then, assuming i will have AIR pockets in the system I then was thinking of closing off "shutoff valve" for upstairs zone, attaching hose to spicket and then opening valve for 10-20 minutes until no Air comes out... only good water flow....
then repeating this process for basement area ....

sound right???

thanks
rf
 
  #34  
Old 04-21-08, 09:17 AM
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When replacing the safety valve please install a nipple and elbow first so that the safety valve will be installed with its stem vertical.

Yes, you may drain the system through the drain valve below the circulator pump. Be sure to first turn off the the make-up water. You won't get much water to drain if you can't let air into the system somewhere.

Do you have air vents on the baseboard heaters or radiators?
 
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Old 04-21-08, 09:25 AM
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Furd

>> noted.

"makeup water" ? assuming that is the water lead from city water that comes INTO boiler?

No bleeder type air valves/nipples on any baseboards here.... just pipes and fins....

rf
 
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Old 04-21-08, 09:34 AM
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"makeup water" ? assuming that is the water lead from city water that comes INTO boiler?
Yes, the city water to the boiler.

I can't help you as far as the purging question goes. No air vents on the baseboards is going to make it more difficult to get the air out.
 
  #37  
Old 04-21-08, 05:01 PM
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I think there's gonna be another troublesome area...

That expansion tank appears to be connected to valve of some sort... I'm wondering if this is a "FILL-TROL" valve.

Fill-Trol Info

If it IS, then something is rotten in ... because there shouldn't ALSO be a pressure reducing valve installed.

IF that is what I think it is, that tank can't be replaced by just any old garden variety tank. It MUST be replaced with a FILL-TROL tank else you won't get any water into the boiler through that valve.

But then, it CAN'T be working if someone installed a separate reducing valve ... IF that's what I think it is.

[looking at pics again]

No... I don't know what the heck that thing is that the tank is screwed into . Robert, is there any nomenclature on that thing ? furd, you have any idea ? Grady ? you watching this thread ?

When you reinstall that tank, get a brick, or a hunk of wood or something to support the end of it. I don't like the way that's installed.

Also, when you reinstall, we talked about adding a valve between the system and the tank... you can do something like this, and add another tee and a valve, and makes checking/setting tank pressure, and changing tank a breeze in the future. Don't need to use copper, or the gauge (but might be cheaper/easier than changing the one on the boiler?)... use black iron fittings and nipples, cheaper, and no soldering involved:



Agree with furd 100% about replacing the relief valve, and his suggestion of elbowing up so the valve is vertical, then elbow down again to the floor.

I'd be skeptical of the gauge, but until proven otherwise, assume that it's correct!

You can make something like this to check pressure against a known good gauge. An old washing machine hose and a few fittings and a gauge. Or, you can buy a fitting at HD or Lowes ... there is one that's made for the purpose of checking pressures in lawn sprinkler systems that screws onto a hose bib, but it's a 200 PSI gauge and the resolution won't be good down low. It is good enough to verify the existing gauge though. Those are around $10 or so. Mine cost nothing, but your junque boxe might not be as well stocked as mine!



What sort of valving is there between the boiler and the heating zones ? You mentioned a 'shut off valve' on one of the zones ? Are there any other drain valves to be seen ?

Can you step back far enough to get a pic of everything ? Do you have a regular digital camera ? or only the cell phone ?
 
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Old 04-21-08, 05:11 PM
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As far as the "wife's tale" about testing the pressure relief valves... furd is correct, they should be operated occasionally. Where your 'tale' comes from is probably because if you DON't operate them occasionally the rubber/neoprene sealing washers dry out, and 'glue' to the seat. When you DO open them, they often crack... and won't shut off again. But, if this DOES happen, it's only because the valve probably should have been replaced 20 years ago ANYWAY. At this point in time, don't open it. Wait until you have a replacement in hand, and are ready to drain and replace.

RED TAG that boiler, and don't operate it again until it's repaired. In the meantime, drain some of that pressure ! As I said in previous post, assume that the gauge is correct until proven otherwise.

You might think about replacing that drain valve... for the same reasons... when you close it, chances are pretty good that it won't close. Replace it with a quarter turn ball type boiler valve.
 
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Old 04-21-08, 05:14 PM
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The less water you HAVE to drain, the better. If there are valves that you can close to isolate the heating zones, then do so. Fresh water contains oxygen, if you don't have to drain the zones, and that old nasty oxygen starved water stays in the system, so much the better.

That's why I would like to see the whole she-bang... every valve and every drain ... and an overall picture that will relate the close-ups...
 
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Old 04-21-08, 08:52 PM
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*** UPDATE ***
tired but DONE !! haha

ran into issues but with all your emails , tips, wiring and suggestions I was able to get everything done today/tonight.

First, drain boiler.... thought of all what you said and decided to drain boiler fully as baseboards on first floor were beneath this level so only 2nd floor would be my issue with Air....

once "dry" i took out the old Exotrol exp. tank..... then the boiler pressure valve, the cut out the old broken WR zone valve.....

Sweated in the new Honeywell 8043 ZV, rewired (but kept wiring as my previous posting), then added the boiler pressure relief valve with new nipple/elbow...... then TRIED to finish off the easiest part of the day with the expansion tank.....
problem # 1... after 1 hour of trying it seemed the connection of new Exp. Tank (T15) was slightly different sizing than brass fitting i was putting it back in.....but next size up/down would not work...... took out this brass fitting (underneath Circ.pump) and it is just a old Ameritrol (sp?) diverter it appears..... no valves or anything and the only removeable part is a screen on the cold water supply side..... no replacement at hardware store or HDpt so found a brass fitting (1/2" Flanged to 1/2" FIP) that seemed to fit perfectly into this old diverter AND 1/2" FIP is just what I needed to screw in the new Exotrol Exp. tank. ended up working and no leaking.....

**NJ Trooper >>> thanks for the heads up on checking the charge on the new expansion tank..... slightly down so added more to get to 15lbs.

** note//// power off to boiler this entire time.....

anyway, after all seemed complete and i rechecked everything i opened the supply line valve and water started filling boiler and then the new boiler relief valve sprang about 15 leaks all over the place..... after turning water off, redraining and reviewing i realized I am such an IDIOT sometimes.... put it in backwards!!! even with the darn arrows i missed it !! haha...

reversed it, changed piping config to keep vertical once changed and all set again.....
supply back on.......boiler power still off.....
temp. gauge was reading low so know this was accurate... pressure held around 22lbs all night from this point on ... running also..... LOVELY sight !! haha

started with 2nd floor zone..... and without turning on boiler (just using pressure in system) tried to purge upstairs section first...... ran 10min until no more "burping" ... then same thing for downstairs....

all valves closed...... boiler power on...... cycled downstairs and old WR ZV opened... waited 5 min and entire downstairs baseboards got hot......

turned off request for heat on downstairs Therm.

turned on upstairs therm ( old unit that came with house) and nothing happened ....... replaced that upstairs t/stat with new Heat Only Honeywell Therm, changed pins to hot water setting and rewired upstairs t/stat...... then called for heat again.... BINGO.....opened new Honeywell ZV .....

only issue after that was air still in lines upstairs so had to purge upstairs again when running circ. pump ...... ran about 15min and then turned off valve.... seemed to work well.....

rechecked 2 more times... each zone.... opening and closing separately until I was convinced each zone/t-stat was functioning properly and still no leaks.... AND boiler temp/pressure readings were in line....

ALL PERFECT ....

YOU GUYS ARE AWESOME..... i really could not have done this without NJ TROOPERS guidance and FURD ......

Thanks again..... really appreciate all the time and effort you spent in helping ....... See you all in the next round of jobs !! haha....

Best Regards
Robert
 
 

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