Hi
I am in NJ. I am having some estimates on a underground tank removal + new above gound install. Are there any questions I should be asking. Also I am limited to getting a pure white tank, wife thing. Someone is coming in a few hours to give an estimate. By law are they able to repump old oil into new tank. I most likely have at least $800 dollares worth of oil in underground tank. One company told me over the phone they are not allowed to give oil from old tank anymore because of insurance reasons.
Any ideas or suggestions about this would be appreciated.
Thanks

 

OK I can get my oil from old tank pumped into new. Anyway to save the oil safely that wont fit in new tank? Any suggestions or tips on install or any thing else still appreciated.

 

Do you have tank insurance on the buried tank ? Does the tank leak ? If you have tank insurance you should notify your ins. co in writing that you are going to remove the tank. They may want to have the tank tested BEFORE any dirt is moved to ensure that they are not paying out on a claim of a leaking tank that was caused by the contractor removing the tank. You will definately need permits for this type of work. Good luck.

 

After you get the old oil into the new tank, be prepared to change the filter several times over the course of the next heating season. I had my old oil pumped into the new tank and went through 4 filters last winter. Install a vacuum gauge on the supply line downstream of the filter so you know when the filter needs to be changed.

I hope you have insurance!

The cleanup on my leaking tank is gonna run around $150,000 !

 

Hi



I do have pro guard tank insurance. I think they cover up to 100,000. Everything would be official permits and all. I am not aware of any leaks.

NJ Trooper wow! You said "The cleanup on my leaking tank is gonna run around $150,000 !"

EEKS that's what I fear. I am assuming you are in NJ. Is the state going to help you with any grant money or is any insurance covering it?

Did you know you had a leak or you found out when it was pulled?

When they pumped your oil into new tank were they careful not to go to low not to get the sludge on bottom. Do they ever use any kind of filtering when they do this?

I was going to rush to get this done before my tank insurance expires Aug 1ST! I am thinking maybe I should hold off pay $300 for another year of insurance. Then take my time and burn most of my oil up in old tank and scrap whats left in old tank?

Any suggestions on a tanks. It will be outside. Will the cold be concern now?

Thanks in advance

 

Questions placed in new topic: New Home... Heating advice.

 

Protect yourself. Like I said earlier, notify Pro guard of your intent to remove the tank. They or your city may require you to have a soil test done first to determine if the tank is in fact leaking. I'm in Sussex County, NJ and had my buried 550 abandoned in 2003 and a soil test was required.

 

Mike, I am covered by insurance, but there are grants in NJ that will cover a major portion, if not all the expense for the cleanup. You would need to qualify though... i.e. 'net worth less than $xxx, etc' ... detail can be found on NJ gov website. Don't have the exact URL, but google will turn it up.

There is also grant money available ($3000 I believe) as an initiative for homeowners to voluntarily remove NON LEAKING USTs ... so, if you meet the net worth and income guidelines (very liberal BTW), most of the expense of removal and replacement may be covered !

I wasn't certain the tank was leaking, but had a hunch. I was present when it came out and lemmee tellya, it was pretty gut-wrenching when I saw (and smelled) the oil leaking. Seriously... thought I was gonna puke (or cry! ). The bottom of the tank was like swiss cheese. I believe that many of the leaking tanks are caused by electrolysis. My electric service enters the home right next to where the tank was buried, and the ground rod was within 4' of the tank. This tank was probably 40-45 years old.

My tank was located very close to the foundation (or lack thereof) of my garage. Luckily, groundwater flows AWAY from the garage, so the contamination does not go UNDER the garage, but is immediately adjacent to it, and 13' deep. Since there is no real footing or foundation under that portion of the garage, they will have to build one first, before they can install the helical piers to support the structure. That's one of the reasons the cost will be so high. Additionally, there are trees that need to be removed, and the electric service to the home needs to be re-located. This tank was leaking (forensic testing revealed) for about 20 years or so). The contractors will be removing appx 320 tons of contaminated soil.

The contractors that removed the tank didn't do any prior soil testing, so I don't believe _my_ borough required it. My insurance company did not. I'm not sure they did everything by the book... , but nobody slapped my wrists for any infractions of the rules...

I didn't have Proguard... my neighbor did though, and had his (non-leaking) tank removed last month ... you should be aware that a rep from Proguard has to be there when they remove the tank, and there are costs that you need to pay for the rep's presence... read the fine print on your policy. I think it's like $100 bucks or something. As Joe stated, make sure you contact Proguard first!

more...

 

The guys that transferred the oil into the new tank didn't have any filters on the pump rig, but they should have. There was probably 25 gall of sludge in the bottom of the tank, and I'm glad there was ! I'm sure it slowed the leaking considerably.

It couldn't have been leaking much... just seeping, year after year after year, because honestly, I don't see ANY difference in my oil useage for the past two winters (tank was removed in '06, cleanup just now starting this summer).

I went for the Roth tank, and it's installed in the unheated garage. Yes, I did find that the cold oil made a difference in the combustion. When the oil was still warm near the beginning of the season, the burner ran nicely. After about a week of the first real cold weather and I started to get delayed ignition, and VERY rough starts. I ended up having to switch back to a constant ignition to get through the winter.

If you've got an older burner that is running at 100 PSI oil pressure, I highly recommend having a tech push the pressure up to 140 or 150 PSI and downsizing the nozzle appropriately to achieve the same firing rate. The higher pressure will atomize the cold oil better and the burner will thank you for it. When the oil is real cold, the droplets in the spray get bigger, and contrary to logic, there is actually MORE oil pumped into the spray. This could cause the fire to get smoky and burn rich, and this is the primary reason that techs add 'insurance air' when tuning up a burner in the fall. By leaning out the mixture when the oil is warm, there's a better chance to make it through the winter without a problem.

In retrospect, I probably would have saved the extra bucks I spent on the Roth and just gotten a plain steel tank (roughly half the price). The Roth can be installed outdoors, but it requires a special cover over it. The new tank should be installed in an area protected from the north wind ... and personally, I would not paint it white. If I had no room in the basement or garage, I would install it on a southern exposure and paint it black... or dark green ... let old Sol warm the oil a bit. Spouse will get used to it... maybe paint some pretty flowers on it or something ...

Give strong consideration to converting to a single pipe, and installing a Tiger Loop at the burner.

 

The reason more oil is pumped into the flame is the cold oil is more dense. Trooper has a very good point about the single pipe/Tigerloop. This gives the oil a chance to warm a good bit before being intoduced into the burner. Another help would be a small (<5 gallon) day tank installed in a conditioned space.

A standard steel 275 is what I have (painted aluminum) installed on the south side of the house & have no problems with cold oil. I do have a large (General 2A-700A) & a spin-on filter ahead of the burner. Between the two filters there is probably between a quart & a half gallon of capacity. This capacity seems to give the oil enough time to warm in my application. I do suggest some kind of secondary containment.

 

For cold oil I think Beckett now offers an inexpensive nozzle line heater. Might be worth looking into.

Al.

 

From personal experience I can tell Beckett what they can do with their oil line heater. The damned thing causes FAR more problems than it cures.

 

Lots of info to think about. Since no company gave me a definite answer on removal being done before tank insurance expires. I am thinking I might not rush into this. Still would like to get it out before fall.

Joe like you mentioned. I would be notifying Progaurd insurance. I basically notify my oil company and they contact Progaurd. Yes progaurd adjuster will be present for a nice little donation of a none refundable $500.





To put the oil tank in my garage I would have to run oil lines under my living room floor. My basement does not go under the living room. There is no crawl space either. Not sure if this would be wise. Originally we were going to this and then run feed lines through the garage and come out the side of our house. Tank would not be visible there. That would be north side of house and would be a longer run going through cold spaces.



Now we are thinking about the west side. That is the backyard and is closest to boiler. I am starting to worry about that location now. But I really think I do not have much of a choice.

Basement has a narrow doorway. I think I read that Roth has smaller tanks that you connect together but I would think that would be $$$$.



How far does tank have to be from boiler if inside the basement?

Grady mentioned "Another help would be a small (<5 gallon) day tank installed in a conditioned space."
Is that something my oil company should be familiar with. They are coming in a few days to give an estimate on a install. I will mention it.

I was going to ask here about the Beckett heater. What kind of problems do they give?

I saw some posts on tiger-loop. Not surewhat that is. I will try to go back and read them.


Also none of the companies I spoke to is suggesting abandonment of tank. Two different companies told me that they had to go back and remove some abandoned tanks. Problems when selling house even if it was abandoned correctly. I actually would like to abandon my tank to save my bushes. But I am thinking I should go with complete removal.

Thanks

 

The heaters bake the oil which is standing in the nozzle tube. This causes frequent nozzle clogging. Every one I come across gets disconnected & a cold flow improver is added to the tank.

Your oil company should be familiar with day tanks. BTW, how "narrow" is the doorway? Tanks have to be 6 feet from the burner.

 

Hi
It seems like the more answers I get, the more questions I have. What is a cold flow improver? The name says what it does but what is it? Is it a simple and not to costly of a device?

I think I will have about 15 ft of fuel line on the inside of my basement before reaching boiler. If I put the tank outside. Any simple things that might help. Like the electric heaters you put on water pipes to keeping them from freezing?

The width of my basement door opening is 24" wide. Half way down the stairs is an overhead clearance a little short of 6 FT.

Thanks a bunch

 

Cold flow improver is a chemical fuel oil treatment added to the tank at each fill-up.

Granby makes a 240 gallon "narrow" tank which sounds like it would go down your basement. The dimensions are: 47" High x 23" wide x 60" long. Their part # is 202201.

 

Hi

I kind of ran into a dead end. So I paid for another year of tank insurance. I did not feel confident with having the oil tank installed outside. My oil company pretty much agreed with me that putting the tank outside will open the door for problems. They also did not offer any solutions for overcoming the cold. They never heard of a secondary or day tank. They did not feel there was much you could do to overcome the elements of the tank being outdoors.



The Granby 240 gallon tank would not make the turn to get it into basement stairs. I will have to expand my basement door opening and rip out a closet in the basement to put a tank indoors. That is what I am leaning towards. They also mentioned the Roth would be easier to get in after expanding doorway.



I guess if I did put it outdoors I would have to do some work myself. Tigerloop and or secondary tank and what ever else.



Can you really overcome the outdoor elements or is it always kind of a gamble.

One interesting thing I was told is that you are better off with a white tank (if outdoors) to avoid condensation from forming inside the tank. This will help prevent freezing in winter. Could be true.



Thanks Again

 

My own tank is outdoors as are those of many of my customers. Very rarely do we encounter any problems with them. Your oil company must not do any commercial work. Day tanks are quite common in commercial applications. Even without a day tank, staying with a one pipe fuel system with a couple of good sized filters in the basement will give the oil time to warm. By "good sized" I mean something like a General 2A-700A followed by a spin-on (Garber or similar). The light colored tank does help reduce condensation. Mine is painted with Rustolem aluminum. Pitch the tank 1/4" per foot of length toward the outlet & install an empty filter can
(General 1A-25A or similar) at the tank outlet as a water trap.
The only time I've had a problem in the aprox. 15 years the boiler has been in was last year when I salvaged some oil & didn't filter it well before putting in my own tank. I attribute the problem to not following my own advice by having the tank level.

 

Thanks Grady. I even mentioned the use of big filters like you told me back a few posts. They didn't think it would help. It sure seems like it will help to me. Where would you place the large general close to the boiler or closer to the entry point of the basement. Thanks for the great tips. At least I feel like I have more options.

I don't know if you remember but I finally checked pump pressure (it was 100 psi) and ordered Co2 fluid today. Slowly getting there.

Thanks

 

I think you need to find an oil company with a clue about what they are selling & how it works.

I like to see filters as close to the burner as is practical. If you put the filters just ahead of the Tiger Loop (presuming you are coming off the top of the tank), I'll guarantee that oil will be warm by the time it is burned.
If you come off the bottom, the configuration you want is: Filter can (with no element) as close to the tank outlet as possible, line into the house & near the burner (with appropriate valves), 2A-700A, Garber, & to the burner. A braided stainless line between the last filter & the burner makes service much easier since no lines need be disconnected to change the pump screen or even remove the whole burner if needed.

 

Its scary but I would say they are one of the largest oil companies by me. My tank insurance is through them so I think I am kinda stuck with them for a little while.

Is coming out of the top of the tank and using a tigerloop a much better way to go or will I be just as safe with other set up.

Thanks again for great info.

 

I don't understand your question. Please explain "safe".

 

Maybe Safe was not the best choice of words. Is set up 1 a much better way to go for preventing problems or are they about equal. Safety was not the concern just preventing problems.

1) "I like to see filters as close to the burner as is practical. If you put the filters just ahead of the Tiger Loop (presuming you are coming off the top of the tank), I'll guarantee that oil will be warm by the time it is burned. "

2) "If you come off the bottom, the configuration you want is: Filter can (with no element) as close to the tank outlet as possible, line into the house & near the burner (with appropriate valves), 2A-700A, Garber, & to the burner"

I like the suggestion of braided line. I actually have to make my copper line shorter from my filter to the burner. I would like to use the braided line now. Do you happen to have a part # or brand name for me to search on. Are there any fittings I will need.

You should charge for all this info
Thanks

 

I & tank manufacturers prefer to come off the bottom of the tank. Some local codes specify off the top. If you come off the top, you should have a Tiger Loop & there is no need for the empty filter can at the tank outlet. If you decide to come off the top, make sure you install a drain valve with a cap on the bottom outlet. This is to drain the water which is certain to accumulate in the tank. In either case pitch the tank toward the bottom outlet. The easiest way to do this is to put legs 1" shorter on that end.

I don't remember if those ends swivel or not but I don't think they do. In that case, I suggest the flare adaptor shown on the same page on one end of the line. Here's a link to the flex line: http://patriot-supply.com/search.cfm...line&search=Go

 

OK. Sounds good. I will take your suggestions.

THANKS FOR LINK


Mike

 

I've stumbled upon this thread and thought I'd jump in - I'm in Morris Co. and planning on having an underground tank removed in the next 2-3 months. I have progurd insurance and P@tro is doing the removal. My sense is that it'll cost $7K+ when all is said and done.

I apparently have to replace with two smaller tanks (~138 gal) in the corner of my basement (town doesn't allow exterior tank and my basement is too tight to navigate a big one).

Is the Roth worth the ~5% increase in cost over a steel tank?

The suggestions and fine print details noted in this thread have been very helpful.

Patrick

 

I think maybe around half that amount would be more reasonable Patrick... but if you need two tanks versus one, perhaps slightly more. Unless your tank is currently in a very inaccessible area for digging/removal... then there might be a bit more cost to remove.

Is the Roth worth the extra cost ? I dunno ... in retrospect, I probably would have gone for a plain steel tank myself, if only to afford a few more cases of lager... but seriously, the tank just sits there... it holds oil... no real bells and whistles ... it might LOOK prettier ... perhaps takes a smaller footprint ... and they do tout that $10K insurance if it ever does leak ... but a steel tank should be installed with a pan underneath it, and a quick inspection every now and then will let you know if it's leaking ... and being indoors, you sure would probably smell it first anyway ... I dunno ... it's a judgement call ... yours to make, just my opinion. I think the price difference is more than 5% though. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it was closer to 50%, but I don't know that for a fact.

I think that if they are quoting only 5% more for the Roth, they are heavily inflating the cost of the steel tank. There's probably a higher mark-up on the Roth, meaning more net profit for the installers. The guys who sold me mine sure did use the hard sell to get me to go with the Roth.

I'm sure you noted the 'money back' from the state for voluntary removal of a non-leaking tank. Praying that yours isn't (leaking) !

 

Just FYI, the last time I priced a Roth, about 6 months ago, they were actually cheaper than steel. It has been quite a while since I looked at the install manual for a Roth but I don't think they can be twinned for filling & venting.

 

Hmmm thanks for the info. I wouldn't be surprised if they're inflating the cost of the steel- the hard sell for the Roth was intense. A fast and smooth talking salesman that shows up in a $60K Mercedes doesn't give me a lot of confidence.

I've been quoted $5700 for two twinned 165 gal. Roths and $5400 for two twinned 138 gal steel. That covers removal, back fill, and installation of the tanks. The rest I was figuring from the misc. fees ($500 for progard to watch, ~$50+ for removal of sludge at the bottom of the tank, $300 to buyback the oil in our existing tank that won't fit in the new tanks, ~150 permit fees, $250 fee to apply for the NJ grant, and cost to re-do the grass/driveway/landscaping that the tank is under).

Fankly, we already have our stove, dryer & hot water heater running off gas. If the boiler weren't ~8 years old and P@tro didn't have us by the balls with tank insurance I'd just go right to gas.

Thanks again for the suggestions!
Patrick

 

Roth has kits to inter-connect up to 5 tanks. All fill and vent pipes between the tanks are pre-cut and the fittings are compression type. Use their base rails and everything theoretically goes right together with no issues. Their leak insurance is $100K for 10 years. The tanks have builtin leak detectors, which pops up if the plastic tank should develop a leak.

 

Hi Patrick



I was also told if they strike oil I would have to pay progaurd $2500 before any work is done. Then hopefully I can re-coupe that from the state. Still waiting for my estimate that included the Roth tank inside and a Granby for outside. I am very close to Morris Co. Luckily I can install outside so I do have a choice. The one estimate I did get was $1300 removal $1700 install of a Granby Protec (I think that model).

Good Luck

 

Is the $2500 a deductible on the policy ?

Keep in mind that the money from the state is for removal of a NON-LEAKING tank, BUT... there are state grants available that cover cleanups of leakers, it's a different program, but do look into it. Info is all on the NJ website. You might have to dig (pun?) for it a bit, but it's there (along with downloadable forms for application)

The 275 Roth seems to be around $650, and the Granby steel around $800 ... so as Grady said, it _IS_ cheaper. That's why they wanna sell them so bad. These are prices I was able to find on the web, so they may not even be the contractor pricing, probably deeply discounted from list though.

My removal install was around $3200 ... with the Roth ... not including costs to restore the landscape and walkways.

 

Hi NJ

Yes it is or just like a deductible you have to pay if a leak is found. Then I think you can get some or most of it back if you apply through the state for a leaking tank grant.

I really think in some ways the tank insurance ends up costing you more. I only have a choice of 4 companies to do a removal. You have to pay $500 for their rep. to come and watch and then there is the $2500 fee for a leaking tank clean-up. I guess it is only worth it if you have a bad leak-er and clean-up costs run higher than the grant coverage.

Those tank prices seem pretty good if you have a link handy and have some time can you post it. I am not sure if the policy will Iet me buy the tank myself but I am going to look into.

Thanks