Wiring an Aquastat

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Old 09-28-08, 10:15 AM
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Wiring an Aquastat

Hi, I really need help wiring an aqustat. I currently have an oil fired water boiler with 2 zone baseboard heat, using taco 571-2 valves. I just installed an indoor wood boiler to it. I purchased a Honeywell L6006c-1018 strap on aquastat, only so when the water temp is too high, it will open a zone valve and turn on the primary circulator pump. The stat has terminals WBR. I believe that the #3 terminal on the zone valve tells the pump to turn on. Any help or additional information will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
 
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Old 09-28-08, 11:24 AM
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You will probably need another control, perhaps a relay, in addition to the aquastast.

You want the zone valve to open, and the circ pump to run, but what you DON'T want is the signal going to the burner to tell it to turn on. That is exactly what will happen if you wire that 6006 to the zone valve.

What model boiler ?

Do you have a diagram of the existing system ?

Need input!
 
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Old 09-28-08, 02:00 PM
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Yes, you are exactly right. I don't want the burner to run. My furnace is an emerald series, by columbia boiler company model em-100. I don't have a manual for it but I was able to determine the controller is a honeywell triple aquastat relay type L8124A, C, L8151A. I was able to get the following schematic off the back of the cover.



thanks
 
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Old 09-28-08, 03:04 PM
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This may get a bit more complicated...

What is the source of domestic hot water in your home ?

(Since you have a 'triple' aquastat, it would appear that it's from a coil in the boiler, correct ?)

How is the wood stove piped in with the boiler ? Does the boiler get heat from the wood stove and heat it up also ?
 
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Old 09-28-08, 03:58 PM
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The source of the domestic hot water is from a from a coil in the burner.

My original boiler, has a feed/drain in the back. The wood boiler is plumbed into that, for a feed. The water returns from a tee at the zone valves, back into the wood boiler. So, the flow is the normal direction of flow that would occur when the heat is called for, done by a secondary circulator pump.

So what should happen, is the water will always circulate through the wood boiler and through the existing boiler, also keeping the coil warm for domestic water. I believe my secondary pump will run when commanded by the wood stove, not continously.

If all goes as planned I will set the temp on the existing furnace way down and the oil burner should never have to kick on.

Sounds good in theory anyway... although I know the system should work because I got the wood boiler from a friend that used it for a few years successfully. Just needed the strap-on aquastat to stop the water from getting to hot and blowing out the relief valve.

Thanks

Oh yeah, something I just remembered. We talked about the zone valve sending the signal to turn on the pump and boiler. But, what I seem to recall is that if the water is up to temp, say 180, and you turn on a t-stat, I am pretty sure the zone valve opens and the pump turns on, and the water will circulate without the burner coming on until the temp lowers. Is it possible there is a seperate control for the burner to work just on temp? and not directly controlled by the valve. That would be good...

Originally Posted by NJ Trooper View Post
This may get a bit more complicated...

What is the source of domestic hot water in your home ?

(Since you have a 'triple' aquastat, it would appear that it's from a coil in the boiler, correct ?)

How is the wood stove piped in with the boiler ? Does the boiler get heat from the wood stove and heat it up also ?
 

Last edited by NJT; 09-28-08 at 05:44 PM.
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Old 09-28-08, 04:00 PM
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Another question... wanna get this right the first time.

Is there a zone valve control panel ?

OR, are the zone valves wired up to the t'stats, and an external 24VAC transformer ?
 
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Old 09-28-08, 04:53 PM
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... I seem to recall is that if the water is up to temp, say 180, and you turn on a t-stat, I am pretty sure the zone valve opens and the pump turns on, and the water will circulate without the burner coming on until the temp lowers. Is it possible there is a seperate control for the burner to work just on temp? and not directly controlled by the valve. That would be good...
Inside the aquastat there is a HIGH LIMIT control. The only time a t'stat call for heat and the burner DOESN'T fire is if the boiler is already above that high limit, typically 180F. So, this won't really solve your problem, because as soon as the boiler drops below a certain temp (the 'differential' of the a'stat, typically 5-8 below the high limit setting), the burner would fire anyway.

I'm thinking that the easiest way to do this without any extra controls, such as a relay, would be to install a switch on the oil boiler to disable the burner manually, when you are burning wood.

In that case, the 6006 "R" and "W" terminals could simply be wired in parallel with the thermostat connections on the zone you wish to activate.

I'm guessing the burner on the oil unit is a Beckett. What PRIMARY CONTROL is on that burner ... it's the gray or black box above the motor on the burner. Is there a jumper across the T T terminals on that primary control ?

It would require manual intervention though. If you were burning wood, and the fire went out, and you forgot to flip the switch on the oil burner... and, on the flip side, if you forgot to switch over to 'wood', the burner might fire at times... when you least want it, when you are trying to dump the excess heat from the wood stove.

But, I'm assuming that you will always be at home when burning wood, and available to throw the switch, correct ?

Using a relay would alleviate having to throw any switches... or forgetting to throw the switches.
 

Last edited by NJT; 09-28-08 at 05:41 PM.
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Old 09-28-08, 06:10 PM
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The zone valves are wired to the t-stats with 24v transformer.

The burner is a beckett. It has a black control panel with the 2 terminals on front jumped with a wire.

I like the idea of just installing a manual switch or relay. Not sure if I could wire the relay...

But what if I just set the low limit on the boiler as low as it goes. just to keep any heat so if the boiler goes out it won't be completely cold? I plan on running it straight through the winter. Hopefully never going out.

Also, does either terminal 1 or 2, on the zone valve, have power, 24v, just in its normally resting state? And when you say to wire the aquastat parallel to the t-stat connections...do you mean I can go right from R W to #1 and #2 on the valve, directly?

Thanks so much... all your help is really appreciated!
 
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Old 09-28-08, 07:58 PM
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I whipped this up for ya ... if you can wire a switch, you can wire a relay. A relay is nothing more than an automatic switch!



It has a black control panel with the 2 terminals on front jumped with a wire.
Those terminals are lableled T T , are they not ?

But what if I just set the low limit on the boiler as low as it goes. just to keep any heat so if the boiler goes out it won't be completely cold? I plan on running it straight through the winter. Hopefully never going out.
With the above setup, the ONLY time the burner will be disabled is when you are dumping excess heat.

Also, does either terminal 1 or 2, on the zone valve, have power, 24v, just in its normally resting state? And when you say to wire the aquastat parallel to the t-stat connections...do you mean I can go right from R W to #1 and #2 on the valve, directly?
You will measure 24VAC across 1 and 2 only when the t'stat is calling for heat. Those are the terminals that energize the 'motor' in the zone valve. Terminals 2 and 3 are the 'end switch'

You do NOT want to wire R W directly to #1 and #2 because you will short out the transformer if you do. ONE of either R OR W can go to terminal #1 on the zone valve, but the OTHER of either R OR W (it really doesn't matter which you use, polarity is not important here) MUST go to the connection that exists between the transformer and the thermostat. I can draw up a diagram if you need details on that part.
 
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Old 09-28-08, 08:01 PM
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More question...

When the wood boiler is operating normally, i.e. NOT dumping excess heat, how is the heat going to be circulated to the zones? Won't you need to control the zone valves somehow under those conditions also ?
 
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Old 09-28-08, 08:11 PM
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One point I forgot to add to the drawing...

The wires from the 6006 to the SR501 relay, the wires from 3 and 4 N/C, and the wires from 5 and 6 N/O, can all be standard 18 gauge thermostat wire. They are all low voltage, 24 VAC. The only 120VAC line voltage wiring is to the H and N terminals.
 
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Old 09-29-08, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by NJ Trooper View Post
More question...

When the wood boiler is operating normally, i.e. NOT dumping excess heat, how is the heat going to be circulated to the zones? Won't you need to control the zone valves somehow under those conditions also ?
Wow. Thanks for that nice diagram. If I can't wire it with that than there is no hope. When the boiler is operating normally the zone valve will be controlled normally by the upstairs t-stats. If the wood boiler water is circulating with the secondary pump or not, the zone valve will open and the primary circulator will turn on, hopefully the water will be directed up and through the open valves.

I found the following manual online for an indoor wood boiler install. Granted my stove is much older, but how I hooked it up is very similar to FIGURE TW-1 PARALLEL PIPING. The only difference in my system is the water returns to the top of my boiler and exits in the back, then to the bottom of my oil furnace.

Please take a look at the link and let me know what you think.
http://www.kerrheating.com/TechInfo/...000_manual.pdf

Thanks.
 
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Old 09-29-08, 04:48 PM
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I don't think you will need that relay.

In that installation book, looking at the wiring, there is a note there that mentions the TT on the burner. They say connecting it to a regular room thermostat inside the home, and setting that thermostat to a LOWER temp than the other t'stats will disable the burner while the wood boiler is heating the home.

If the fire were to go out, and the temp in the home dropped below that setting, it would allow the oiler to fire up and run.

So, if you set that extra stat to say 65 and the other stats to 70 (or whatever you are comfortable with) then the extra stat will cut the burner off. All the other stats will still operate their respective zone valves, and the circ on the oiler will operate when there is a call for heat.

When you aren't burning wood, you would simply set the extra stat ABOVE (say 75) the temp of the other t'stats... and they would operate the oiler normally.

It doesn't have to be a fancy t'stat either, any old el cheapo stat would work just fine.

I like that idea much more than the relay.

It's basically the same idea that I had with using a switch on the TT but you would have some 'backup' in that the oil burner would automatically re-enable itself if the home dropped below the setting on the extra t'stat.

In that case, R and W on the 6006 would wire directly in parallel with the zone you want to use to dump heat.
(not 1 and 2 on the valve as mentioned above, but across the t'stat wires)
 
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Old 09-29-08, 05:18 PM
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This is what I was describing above. I added a 'typical' zone valve wiring to show where the 6006 gets wired.

 
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Old 09-29-08, 05:35 PM
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Cool. That looks much simpler. I can't wait to get started wiring it all. Thanks to your help I have a really good understanding of how the system works. What did you think of the way the water will flow through the zone valves when they open?
 
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Old 09-29-08, 05:56 PM
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It appears that the system will operate just like if the oil burner was providing the heat. The wood boiler circulates heat into the oil boiler, and those controls should take over and push the heat into the zones...

Ya owe me an oil change !
 
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Old 09-30-08, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by NJ Trooper View Post
Ya owe me an oil change !
Yeah you aint kidding. Any vehicle related questions throw 'em at me.
 
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Old 10-17-08, 07:41 PM
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Post Help with controls on oil/wood boiler combo

Originally Posted by NJ Trooper View Post
This is what I was describing above. I added a 'typical' zone valve wiring to show where the 6006 gets wired.

Hello!
I have almost the same situation as described in this thread, except: my oil burner is a RIELLO and I don't see that jumper across the T-T terminals in this type of burner. (there's a gray plastic control box that is powered by line voltage and the rest appears to be all internal connections)

I have 2 boilers wired and piped in parallell. One is an oil boiler and burner and the other is an HS Tarm wood boiler model 402.

I can heat the house no problem with the wood boiler, but: 1) the limit on the oil boiler is too high (180) and when the wood boiler reaches the low limit of 160 degrees AND there is a call for heat, the wood circulator kicks on and the zone valve opens. However, if the temp on the oil boiler is still below 180, the oil burner fires until the temp on the oil boiler reaches 180, wasting oil while I'm burning wood!

Also, the high limit aquastat on the wood boiler (210 degrees) does not open a zone valve and start the oil circulator in order to dissipate heat even when there is no call for heat by the Tstat. Couldn't I have that relay just open a zone valve and use the circulator pump on the wood boiler (which runs constantly)? I can accomplish that heat dissipation task manually by opening a zone valve by hand on the TACO zone valve using the manual open lever.

I should also say that all the electrical power comes from the oil burner switch. If that is turned off, nothing (including the wood boiler's circulator pump) works.

It appears that at some point in time the wood boiler was taken off line (valves shut) and any new control wiring was dedicated to the operation of the oil furnace only. But the wood furnace works great--just some automatic control issues to fix. Can you help?
 

Last edited by NJT; 10-18-08 at 08:32 AM.
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Old 10-17-08, 08:46 PM
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What make/model is the oil boiler ?
 
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Old 10-18-08, 05:34 AM
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Burnham Oil Boiler

Originally Posted by NJ Trooper View Post
What make/model is the oil boiler ?
The Oil furnace is a BURNHAM V-7 series unit.

Low Pressure Boiler 03/1999
Model No. PV74WC-TLWN1
Serial No. 64098837

The burner is RIELLO 40 F5

Is it just a matter of purchasing the optional series 60 low limit circulator control for the Honeywell L8148A Aquastat Relay mounted on this oil furnace to keep it from wasting oil when I'm burning wood and I am at the wood boiler's (TARM) low limit of 160 degrees?

It occurred to me that a separate power line running to the TARM relay might give it some independent use?

In case you are wondering, the DHW is heated by the oil furnace (or the wood boiler if it's burning) since both units are piped to share the heated water.

Should I be concerned that the wood boiler's circulator pump (big green TACO) runs all the time? I suppose it does that to keep the the hot water running through the oil furnace and not let it fire due to low temperature?
(According to the manual for the wood unit, it does this to prevent thermal shock by using a 4-way mixing valve where the return water comes in but I don't see any such piping to allow for more or less hot return water from the heating zones coming back into the heating system) Maybe I should do this?

I know I'm close to having this wood unit (TARM--still in business!) heating my 4-zone house.

Simple objectives: 1) don't burn any oil unless I'm away or at work and have to keep the house at a minimum oil-fired temp.
2) prevent the wood unit from overheating by overriding the the Tstats and dumping heat into the large upstairs zone.

Thanks for responding so promptly.
Maybe I can get this straightened out this weekend!
 

Last edited by NJT; 10-18-08 at 08:32 AM.
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Old 10-18-08, 07:22 AM
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Red face TARM 402 Circulator

NJTrooper: FYI:

The "Big Green" TACO circulator pump for the Wood unit (TARM 402) is a TACO Red Baron Model 110. It is activated by a Relay on the side of the TARM when the low limit aquastat on the supply pipe to the TARM reaches 160 degrees AND 1 of 4 Tstats calls for heat AND the oil furnace switch is on (power to both oil and wood furnace controls).

Oh, the control for the DHW is just a Tstat at the base of a blue AMTROL hot water maker storage tank which receives hot water from the oil furnace/wood furnace piping. A circulator pump at the base of the AMTROL tank brings the hot water in.

ALL 4 zone valves (TACO 517?)--the gold ones with removable heads--are wired together and input onto the T-T terminals of the Honeywell L8148A Aquastat Relay mounted on the front of the Burnham V-7 oil furnace.

I think that's everything. The Tstats in the house are programmable LUX 500 models which I used to program for low temps during the weekdays and nights but I don't think it saved much on oil because of the long firings required on the oil burner to bring the temp back up. I noticed the setting was about 190 degrees on the oil furnace which was maybe a little high and causing me to burn more oil. Thieves?$ I moved the dial down to 180 degrees which is the lowest possible setting.

Well, that's the entire heating system. I've tried to give you more information rather than less--sorry if it is more than you need.
 

Last edited by NJT; 10-18-08 at 08:35 AM.
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Old 10-18-08, 08:36 AM
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The more info the better... excellent description! ...

Maybe I can get this straightened out this weekend!
Probably optimistic!

lemmee think on it for a bit ...

(oh, btw, I fixed the 'smilies' in your messages... don't know why they are showing up as URL ? you don't need to add the URL if you are doing that, just click on the smilie...)
 

Last edited by NJT; 10-18-08 at 09:12 AM. Reason: I'm the eternal pessimist!
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Old 10-18-08, 08:13 PM
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Is it just a matter of purchasing the optional series 60 low limit circulator control for the Honeywell L8148A Aquastat Relay
No, you don't want to do that... what that will do is keep the boiler warm/hot ALL THE TIME, by firing the burner whenever it cools below a point. That control is used for running a boiler as a warm start, when a tankless domestic water coil is installed in the boiler.

a separate power line running to the TARM relay might give it some independent use?
I don't think you want to do that either, as when a zone calls for heat, you need the power to the oil boiler ON in order to open a zone valve and run the circulator.

Should I be concerned that the wood boiler's circulator pump (big green TACO) runs all the time?
It is activated by a Relay on the side of the TARM when the low limit aquastat on the supply pipe to the TARM reaches 160 degrees AND 1 of 4 Tstats calls for heat AND the oil furnace switch is on
These two statements _seem_ to contradict each other... please clarify.

a 4-way mixing valve where the return water comes in but I don't see any such piping to allow for more or less hot return water from the heating zones coming back into the heating system) Maybe I should do this?
Maybe... I need to look at the install manual for your boiler, do you know if it's on-line in PDF somewhere ?

190 degrees on the oil furnace which was maybe a little high and causing me to burn more oil. Thieves?$ I moved the dial down to 180 degrees
Nah, 10 won't make a big enough diff to notice I don't believe.

Since the Riello doesn't have the TT terminals, I believe you will need to somehow control the signal coming from B1 and B2 on the V7's aquastat... What you are looking to do is disable the oil burner only, not the zone valves or the system circulator. I have a few ideas but need to sleep on them before I open my yap ...
 
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Old 10-19-08, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by NJ Trooper View Post
These two statements _seem_ to contradict each other... please clarify.

Maybe... I need to look at the install manual for your boiler, do you know if it's on-line in PDF somewhere ?
About the 2 statements that seem to contradict:

If I build a fire in the wood boiler (which has its own circulator pump--the TACO Red Baron model 110) and bring the water in the wood boiler (TARM) to the low limit of 160 degrees, I expected the relay (Honeywell RA89A) controlling this pump (mounted on the side of the wood unit) to turn it on independent of the oil boiler and even if there was no call for heat but it only does this if the water temp in the TARM is 160 AND a Tstat calls for heat. This is because this RA89A relay gets its line voltage from the L8148A control on the oil boiler, and therefore is only powered when a Tstat calls for heat.

So anyway just to be sure about the controls for these 2 boilers which are wired and piped together:

BURNHAM OIL UNIT: Honeywell aquastat L8148A is on front of boiler and controls the in-line TACO 007-F5 cartridge circulator, the RIELLO 40F5 burner, the 4 TACO 571 zone valves, the guard dog RB-122 low water cut-off, AND power to the RA89A relay on the wood furnace. Of course, my line voltage comes into the oil furnace with a switch mounted on front to turn the unit off as well as a hefty (don't know the specs) 24V transformer to power the Tstats and zone valves. Oh, almost forgot, the circulator pump for the AMTROL hot water tank gets power from the L8148A and there must be a wire from the hot water tank to the burner control to make Domestic Hot Water when that cools down--I didn't trace that one.

TARM 402 Wood Furnace: Shares piping and power with the oil furnace.

It has its own:

TACO Red BAron model 110 circulator pump which is turned on by the RA89A relay mounted on the side. This relay is actuated by a Honeywell 6006? aquastat set to 160 degrees which is wired to the T-T terminals of the RA89A relay.

2 Honewell 6006? aquastats
Low limit (160) wired to the T-T terminals of the RA89A relay to turn on the RED BARON circulator.
High Limit (210) which goes back to the oil boiler to dump excess heat--Sorry, I haven't traced that wire yet.

Nothing else except a FLOW CHEK next to the wood units circulator to prevent gravitation of cold water into the oil furnace when the wood burner isn't being used (and therefore the circulator isn't moving the water).

Hope this helps with some questions you had.
I never knew anything about this stuff before so pardon any "newbie-like" statements.

What do you think about this:
How about replacing the high limit only L8148A control on the oil furnace with a
L8124 high/low limit control?

Oh, the .pdf manual--not on line--but I can scan the appropriate pages for you and send them to from the original manual although it is not very technically specific--just some very generic wiring schematics.
 
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Old 10-19-08, 07:39 PM
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Thanks to that great description, I was able to draw a block diagram... and have a pretty good idea of how it's wired... but some specific questions:

The line voltage you said was going from the 8148 to the 89; that's C1 and C2 on the 8148 going to L1 and L2 on the 89 ?

the circulator pump for the AMTROL hot water tank gets power from the L8148A and there must be a wire from the hot water tank to the burner control
When you say 'gets power from', how so exactly ? I'm going to assume that you mean that the L1 and L2 jump 120 VAC from the 8148 to the Amtrol White and Black, and other control wiring between them. Do you know if the Amtrol is wired for priority ? (this shouldn't affect what we're doing, but just so I know what's there...)

High Limit (210) which goes back to the oil boiler to dump excess heat--Sorry, I haven't traced that wire yet.
Let's call this the "Wild Zone" ... Do trace that one out and let me know where it goes. I believe it should wire in parallel with one of the zone t'stats.

How about replacing the high limit only L8148A control on the oil furnace with a L8124 high/low limit control?
That would achieve the same result as adding the 6006 to the 8148 ... not what you want/need.

=================

Here's the issues as I currently understand them:

1. Until I can see the Tarm installation recommendations (check your PMs ...) I'm thinking that the Tarm circ should fire up whenever the 160 6006 'makes', in order to keep the oiler hot. If it only fires up when there is a call for heat from the home, the oiler could be cooled off, and that cool slug of water will cool the Tarm, and possibly shock it. This may be what the Tarm manual is referring to when they talk about the mixing valve you mentioned earlier. (I'd like to see that section of the manual, in addition to any wiring details they show)

2. In order to prevent the Riello from firing up, you may need an additional 6006 (or maybe a 4006) to disable the Riello when the Tarm is hot. You may be able to swap out the RA89 with an SR501 which has two poles, and both NO and NC contacts on both, and use the existing 6006 for this purpose. One pole would still control the Tarm circ, while the other could be used to disable the Riello. I'm assuming that as long as there's a fire in the Tarm that the temp will remain above 160.

3. We need to determine how the wild zone is wired, and verify that it works... safety issues ...

We're getting there...
 
  #26  
Old 10-19-08, 09:19 PM
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Here's what I'm thinking, but don't commit to this until we de-bug it on paper first... need to consider all scenarios.

The 'wild zone' 6006 which is set at 210 could be wired as in previously posted drawing, across thermostat as shown.

One last thing... in the event of power failure, does Tarm have a gravity flow zone recommended ? Using a normally open zone valve ? Allowing excess heat to dissipate during no power condition ?

 
  #27  
Old 10-19-08, 09:23 PM
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TARM 402 manual

I don't have permission for attachments.
Do you want me to email the .pdf file to you?
(I'll scan the pages of the TARM manual about setup and wiring)
In the meantime, I'll trace that high limit aquastat wire back to the oil burner to see where it is wired and get answers to your other questions.

Using that double relay as a kill switch to the oil burner makes sense to me.
I'm glad you knew not to switch out the 8149 control--that seemed to make sense--shows how much I know!
 
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Old 10-19-08, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by NJ Trooper View Post
Here's what I'm thinking, but don't commit to this until we de-bug it on paper first... need to consider all scenarios.
If I understand your diagram correctly, I would simply replace the single 89 relay with the double 501 relay and you simply took the B1 wire for the Riello and wired it to the relay first and then on to the burner so that you make and break that hot wire depending on whether the wood boiler is at 160 degrees or below 160 degrees.

So, let's say I am starting up a wood fire and waiting for the wood boiler to warm up to 160 and it's cold in the house and the Tstats are calling for heat--then the oil burner would fire until my wood fire has warmed the TARM's water to 160 degrees at which point the burner's power would be cut off and I would be using wood-fired heat only. At this point, I would warm the house with wood-fired heat whenever the Tstats called for it and the zone valves would open as necessary. (I've already tried this part and it works) If the wood fire would then be left to die out, the oil burner would operate when the water in the wood boiler dropped below 160 and I would be in oil-burner mode per usual.

Hope I have that right--next up for me is the specific wiring that is present for the wild zone.
Get back to you on this.

Thank you for helping--yes, I think we're almost there.
 

Last edited by NJT; 10-20-08 at 02:47 PM.
  #29  
Old 10-20-08, 02:55 PM
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Exactly...

You've got it right as far as how that setup will work, but I'm still not 100% convinced that it's the 'right' thing to do.

The Tarm circulator will run whenever there's a fire, and I think this is OK ... in fact probably desirable, at least I can't think of any drawbacks. Hopefully, if there are, someone will read this and point them out.

I might also suggest that you consult Tarm ... call them on phone perhaps... and see what they say.

Does the manual show a gravity flow heat dump circuit in the event of a power failure? using a normally open zone valve ?
 
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Old 10-20-08, 03:59 PM
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Gravity Flow Heat Dump

Originally Posted by NJ Trooper View Post
Does the manual show a gravity flow heat dump circuit in the event of a power failure? using a normally open zone valve ?
No, I don't see anything about a gravity flow heat dump in the event of a power failure.

Do you want me to scan some of the manual and send you a .pdf file of it?

How do you do that multi-boxed quote thing in your posts?

Sending you another post after this about the "wild zone" wiring.
 
  #31  
Old 10-24-08, 06:04 AM
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TARM wood boiler relay

I purchased the TACO 501 relay and will install that this weekend. This way my oil burner won't fire when I'm burning wood and I will only have to achieve 160 degrees in the TARM before turning up my Tstats for heat.

Speaking of Tstats, are there models that have a single programmed set temperature for all the time which can then be overriden manually when I have a wood fire going? Have to do this for 3 zones: kitchen, downstairs, upstairs.
The LUX model I have now is a programmable one for temps 4 times a day (morn,day,aft,eve) which means if I am burning wood and override the low temp (don't want to burn oil), I will be all set until the next programmed time comes along and the stat will revert back to the low temp. I would then have to go all over the house to override the stats again.

By the way, I traced the wild zone wiring and the Honeywell 4006A is wired correctly to open a zone valve, allowing excess heat in the wood boiler to be dissipated. I tested this by manually dialing down the hi temp control and it worked by opening the zone valve for the basement zone. I might change it to the upstairs zone though because it is the largest heating zone in the house. The basement zone was probably wired as the wild zone because it is not one of the living areas.

One more question: I am wondering what is the lowest house temp I should use when I'm not home and not burning a wood fire but don't want to burn any oil.

The DHW tank will cause the oil burner to warm the water anyway, unless I put that on DHW tank on standby during the day while at work---that's a pain! Can the DHW tank be timed to make things more automated and save on oil?
 
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Old 10-24-08, 02:53 PM
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Good... let us know how that works for ya ... keep in mind that the way I've shown the wiring that the circ on the Tarm will run whenever the temp is over 160 (or whatever you set the 6006 to). You might want to experiment with that setting a bit. There is in addition to the high limit, an adjustable differential, which is SUBTRACTIVE. This means that if you set to 160, and the diff is at 20 as an example, the R/W contacts will 'make' at 160, and 'break' at 160 - 20 = 140 ... If the diff is set too low, the circ on the Tarm may cycle a few times as it's warming up... which could be OK ... ya know what might be the 'cat's meow' on that Tarm circ ? a VARIABLE SPEED control for that circ. Dial in a setpoint and the circ would speed up or slow down based on the temp in the Tarm...

I'm not sure I'm following your t'stat question. If you've got the stats programmed the way you want them for the oil boiler, would they not provide the same temps when the wood boiler is running ? Why can't you just leave them set to do their own thing ? Don't the LUX models have a 'HOLD' feature ?

You _could_ actually wire up another relay box to activate more than one zone as wild. If you're careful with the fire though, you may never need to dump ...

The lowest temp ? You would want to set that high enough so that you won't suffer from long recovery times... and that your plumbing pipes don't freeze. I personally wouldn't go more than 5 , and reality is that I only set back 3 on mine. I'm not a big believer in the so-called 'savings' that setback t'stats supposedly offer, but that's another thread.

The 'standby' loss on an indirect water heater is very low. I'd be surprised if it even fired once while you were away at work. I don't think that's necessary... have you observed it calling for heat often when no hot water is being used ? If so, you may want to plumb 'heat trap' piping if it is not already piped that way. This would prevent the hot water from 'migrating' by convection (or 'gravity') when not in use, and reduce standby losses.
 
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Old 10-24-08, 03:25 PM
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Yes, there is a HOLD feature on the LUX Tstat--never needed it before and never used it---I'm all set there--that will work.

The setback: remember the recovery from a cold house is now building a fire in the TARM and not firing the oil burner. So I think I can setback a lot and get more energy from my wood fuel than from the oil--at least it will cost me less. I'll have to experiment I guess.

The wiring for the Amtrol indirect hot water maker has been traced and I need to prevent the oil burner from firing when I am burning wood for that too. The control wire from the Amtrol DHW comes back to the oil boiler 8148 control box and is connected the BLUE wire lug in front of the temp dials. There is a blue wire lug that goes into the circuit board on the top and a red wire lug that goes into the circuit board on the bottom.

Can I wire this connection through the TACO 501 relay on the same contact as the oil burner wire or do I need a different relay with another connection?

I like the idea of the variable circulator for the TARM. It wouldn't be much of a hassle to put in because the TARM can be valved out of the system prior to draining and re-plumbing.

Maybe you can get back to me on using that 501 relay for the DHW zone disable before I open the box up?

Thanks for the help--everything making sense and working well so far--might need to cut some more wood though!
 
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Old 10-24-08, 04:52 PM
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One other behaviour that I want to mention that could happen with this setup... IF you have a wood fire going, and it gets REALLY cold out... and the Tarm can't maintain the 160 setting, the oil burner will come back on-line automatically to heat the home. The Tarm circ will stop, which will allow it to heat back up. Once it does, it will automatically come back on-line.

The wiring for the Amtrol indirect hot water maker
You shouldn't need to change that wiring at all. When the 501 opens the B1 line to the burner, the burner is disabled... it won't fire up on a heat call OR a DHW call ... as long as the Tarm is hot.

Take a look at this PDF. I believe that yours is wired as shown in the last diagram on page 13. If so, then your water heater does NOT have priority over the heating zones.

You _could_ rewire as shown in the first diagram on page 16 if you discover that the water heater is struggling to recover temperature when the wood boiler is firing. What that setup would do is cut off the system circulator and allow the Amtrol to get all the heat until it's recovered, and then transfer back to the space heating. But run it as it is for a while and see how it performs... it may be just fine.

Amtrol Indirect Install Manual PDF

I like the idea of the variable [speed] circulator for the TARM.
I'll take a look and see if I can come up with an appropriate controller. It would use a standard wet-rotor circ... not sure if the existing circ can be set up for variable speed, but maybe. We're probably talking a few $$$ for that controller, so it might just be best to K.I.S.S. if it performs well enough.
 
  #35  
Old 10-25-08, 05:40 PM
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TARM setup

THat's right--once I disable the burner, how would the DHW turn it on? Duh!

Interesting scenario about the really cold weather that I didn't think about but a little bit of "helper" oil firing is no problem.

I think this set up will work pretty well and save lots of $$$ on oil, though it won't save the back-breaking work of cutting and splitting wood--gotta get the exercise in somehow!

Thank you for helping. I've learned a lot and you have saved me a lot of time trying things that wouldn't work.Beer 4U2

I'll take a look at that file you sent me shortly.
 
  #36  
Old 10-29-08, 11:46 PM
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Question Awesome site _ me too, I have a question for NJ Trooper

Hello NJ Trooper,
The questions and your answers are right on track for me too. Here's my question and situation. I'm hooking up an Atmos 40s coal/oil boiler though my V14. I've got the diagram, wiring and everything figured out but your informative answers has me question one assumption I've made. My Beckett control allows me to set my boiler down to a high of 130* and a low of 120*. Instead of the separate thermostats, and rewiring of controls I was planning on using this as the high limit for the V14. I figured that if my temperature from the Atmos dropped down while I was gone to work, the furnace would kick on and provide the heat until Atmos was stoked and brought up to temperature. I've isolated and controlled the flow from the Atmos to the V14 by relays, zone valves and circulators. When the Atmos is coming up to temperate it's dumping directly into the boiler and to my manifold, in case heat is called for. When the cold output from the V14 reaches 160* then the bypass valve, aquastat controlled switches the flow to the tempering storage tank and proceeds to heat that stored water flow into the V14 boiler, heating both the storage tank and the boiler. Because It's pretty cold all the time I only need a 150 gallon storage tank inside between the Atmos and V14, at -20 below, most of the heat from the Atmos will go directly into the V14 boiler directly and feed the storage tank when the V14 tem rises to 160*. So it seems to me that setting the oil burner control to 130* or even 140* should cover me should the temp of the Atmos drop. Lastly the relays, backflow preventers and valves ensure that when the V14 is running off oil I'm only heating the oil boiler and not the Atmos or storage tank. What do you think? I can do a diagram of this setup and send it to you for your review and opinion. I believe this setup will work for our extreme climate, where the cold is here to stay (by Nov 1st -30* possible) until probably April when it warms up to above 0* every day and less heat needed. My house is super insulated, lots of windows, 3400 sq ft and I have used on avg 1500 gallons of oile each year for last 10 years, hoping to drop it down to 200 gallons (use oil for heating hotwater for our 3 months of summer) by burning soft Bitimunous coal which only costs $115 a ton delivered, at an equivalant cost of $1.08 a gallon.
 
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Old 10-30-08, 01:13 AM
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Brad, if you have a LOW setting on the existing oil unit aquastat, is it safe to assume that your domestic hot water is provided by a tankless coil in the oil unit ?

If you turn the HIGH setting down, it will prevent the boiler from firing when you are burning coal, but here's the problem:

Running the HIGH setting that low is gonna open you up to issues of flue gas condensation, and 140 water coming out of the boiler may not be hot enough to heat the home when it's really cold out. It MAY, but it also may not ... even if it IS hot enough, you may start condensing ... you don't want that.

In your case, I think the idea of the el-cheapo thermostat inside the home and wired to the TT terminals on the primary control of the oil burner makes sense.

Setting that extra t'stat a few degrees below the room t'stat would allow you to burn coal with the oil burner disabled as long as the room temp was above the aux setting. You wouldn't have to mess with the settings in the oil aquastat. When you want to burn oil, set the aux t'stat a few degrees ABOVE the room t'stat.

But I would like to see a diagram. You can probably put the diagram up on photobucket and provide a link here...
 
  #38  
Old 11-30-08, 02:08 PM
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Question Domestic Hot Water from Jenson water boiler

Looking for help from you guys,

I just bought a used Jenson wood Boiler and hooked it up to my existing oil boiler, having polblems with Hot domestic water.

Should I expect the wood boiler to have the same abilty to heat hot water for my domestic needs as the oil fired unit.

In the past the oil boiler had endless amounts of hot water for my domestic needs ,(from a coil inside the oil fired unit) with only the wood boiler running i get 10 minutes of hot water and then takes 20 minutes to get hot water?

currently the stove is working very well to heat the house, will I need to hook up a indirect Hot water heater tank for my hot water needs?
 
  #39  
Old 11-30-08, 03:17 PM
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Did you get a manual with that boiler, and did you follow the manf recommendations for installation ?

I have a scan of a manual here, but it is so messed up it's just not deciperhable ... so can't really help a lot without it ...

Generally though, wood boilers are piped in parallel with the existing boiler. There's a pump between the two boilers. Whenever the wood boiler is hot, it turns on that pump and circulates hot water between the two boilers, keeping them BOTH hot. Check valves are installed so that the existing boiler only keeps itself hot, and not the wood boiler also ...

If you have a fire in the wood boiler and both boilers are hot, you should still have hot water from your DHW coil ...
 
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