Peerless Heating not heating - pump and pilot are on


  #41  
Old 03-16-09, 09:20 PM
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Thanks Grady!

I am OK with modifying wiring, as long as I can put it back together, or do not cause a short somewhere, or just simply make things worse. The only reason I would want to call a local guy is my worry of not tracing wires properly and actually giving you wrong information. In the meantime we will wait for NJ Trooper.

Originally Posted by Grady View Post
Your Taco control is wired to make the boiler stay hot all the time. That is the cause of your high gas bills, not the pilot.
I didn't think wiring could control it, as I said I was looking for a lever or dial where you could set a pre-heat or lowest boiler temp...

Originally Posted by Grady View Post
The second terminal from the left, on the bottom, should be labeled as "P". Would you please tell me where that red wire goes & to what terminal on the aquastat it is connected?
You can see that second terminal's red wire leading to the power switch right above Taco box on this shot: http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/340...connection.jpg So it is NOT connected to aquastat.


Originally Posted by Grady View Post
The same information for the black wire on the third terminal which should be labed as "ZC".
Black wire on the third terminal goes to aquastat, I would have to tug it a little to see where it leads. Looks like there is only one coming out of aquastat, but it doesn't seem to be the same gauge.


PS: When they first wired this, we had a warning from ConEdison stating "Electrical Problems", the thermostats would not control anything. They came back and forth a few times, finally they fixed it (this was their solution)

PS2: At this point, please note that I only have 1 active thermostat. I asked them to disable the second one. This is also why you see thermostat connectors wired together in order to be controlled by a single thermostat (the zones are piped together, defeating the purpose of two thermostats...)
 
  #42  
Old 03-17-09, 02:57 PM
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Grady shook my cage and woke me up!

I looked at the pics... I can't tell what's what inside the aquastat... what's with all them extra wires? Nice and colorful and all, but where do they go, and what do they do?

I'm going back to look at more pics now... try to figure out what is going on...

I don't understand how the thermostats are wired as 'master' / 'slave' ...

On the 24 V accessory block in the Taco panel, above the transformer... where do those wires go?

I need to go all the way back and re-read the whole thread I'm afraid, becuz I'm not totally 'up to speed'...
 
  #43  
Old 03-17-09, 03:16 PM
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I got to the picture of the aquastat with all the pretty color wires scrambled around... trying to follow the wires ya know... anyway, I wondered if I see what I think I see?

Is there a white jumper wire in between terminals T and TV in the top left corner of the aquastat?

If so, it would seem that is the reason the boiler is constantly cycling... I don't know what these guys were thinking... did they mumble among themselves a lot?

There is no wire from the Taco panel to the boiler that controls the boiler firing...

Are you still talking to these guys that installed it?
 
  #44  
Old 03-17-09, 03:27 PM
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I need to know where all them wires are going...

Inside the aquastat, I can see three connections that are taped! up with black electrical tape... (which is WAY wrong... shoulda used small wire nuts... or maybe the tape is covering wire nuts?)

One is the yellow wire... what is that taped to? Or is the end of the wire just taped over?

The others appear to be smaller gauge thermostat type wire, white and red... I need to see what those are connected to.

And there's a red wire coming in from the cable to your vent damper up top... where's that one go?

What is the model # of the vent damper?
 
  #45  
Old 03-17-09, 03:34 PM
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Above the boiler, there is a round thing connected to the pipe leading out of the boiler... I believe that is your Low Water Cut Off (LWCO) switch. Does it say "Guard Dog" on it? What is the model # of that part?

There's one other thing I just noticed that I think is not good practice, and may not even be 'code'... that they jammed the LOW VOLTAGE wiring inside a piece of armored cable along with the 120VAC wiring from the Taco panel to the aquastat.

Those should have been run on their own in a separate piece of armor... or even tied to the outside of the cable would be a better choice.

Nor do I see any GROUND wires to speak of to the circulators, or to the aquastat...

Was this inspected? and passed?

Are the 'two hot water tanks' that you mentioned a long time ago the domestic water heaters for the building? And you said that they are totally independent of the heating system, correct?
 
  #46  
Old 03-17-09, 03:59 PM
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Wiring

I'm sure NJ Trooper will be along this evening & I'd like to get his input but here's how I would wire things:

Red from switch---To terminal "H"
Black from "H"---To Aquastat terminal L1
Whites on "N"---Appear to be OK if one goes to L2 on Aquastat

Low Voltage Wires:
Disconnect everything from the terminal block in the upper left corner & separate the pair going down (to aquastat?) from the pair coming from the t-stat.
On the thermostat block remove the jumpers.
Connect the pair from the thermostat to the first & second terminals of the thermostats terminal strip.
The remaing low voltage wire pair (going to the aquastat?), should be connected to terminals X1 & X2. From there they should connect to T & TV on the aquastat.

Once this much is done, we can tackle the aquastat & vent damper wiring.

What think Troop?
 
  #47  
Old 03-17-09, 04:19 PM
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Here's what I think I can see...

The LWCO is being powered from the 24VAC out of the Taco... that's what that RW pair is taped together in the lower left on the a'stat... so if that pair is disconnected, there's no power to the LWCO...

IMHO, the LWCO should be wired per manf instructions, and they show the 24VAC coming from the aquastat, not jumped in from an external source... not that it won't work, but why even do it that way? Waste of wire...

So, in order to move them wires to X1 and X2, you would first need to rewire the LWCO red and white to inside the aquastat.

Both circs are being switched by the one thermostat, so I think you still need the jumpers on the t'stat connections...
 
  #48  
Old 03-17-09, 04:22 PM
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Something weird ... there's 2 pairs of t'stat wires coming in to the top of the Taco panel... presumably that's one from each 'zone' ...

OK, so the upstairs zone was 'abandoned' and slaved to the downstairs thermostat... I get that...

but why does it appear that 24VAC is being sent back UP those wires via a connection to the 24V source in the Taco panel?
 
  #49  
Old 03-17-09, 04:46 PM
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Lwco

I agree about wiring the LWCO per manufacturer's instructions.

It's beyond me why they are sending 24v back up to an abandoned t-stat. That's why I said to connect to the "thermostats" terminal strip as it should be.
 
  #50  
Old 03-17-09, 06:16 PM
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Ricardo, you've got yer work cut out for ya...

You may need to borrow or buy a 'lugger' that you can crimp terminals onto the wires.

How short are the RED and WHITE wires coming from the LWCO? Those need to be disconnected from where they are and the RED wire from the LWCO put on the W and Z terminals (those two should be jumpered together), and the WHITE wire from the LWCO put on the TV terminal. [option: aquastat terminal B2 and TV are the same point electrically. If the WHITE wire from the LWCO is long enough, wire it to B2 instead of TV] If they are real short, you need to extend them. Use wire nuts, not electrical tape.

I would like to see that ball of green wire removed and the wire cut to the correct length.

I don't see the wires going to the gas valve?
 

Last edited by NJT; 03-17-09 at 07:24 PM.
  #51  
Old 03-18-09, 07:31 AM
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Wow, first of all, sorry to suck you guys into this maze of wires, but it sounds like you guys enjoy solving this type of puzzles!

Trooper, there are no wires going to the gas valve.

To answer your questions if I talked to these people and their answer / explanation is that boiler needs to stay warm in relationship to temperature that thermostat is set, so that when the temperature goes down to that level, the boiler does not have to heat the water from a cold state, which would spend much more gas/calorie in order to bring it to that level. Therefore, the boiler keeps the internal temperature at certain degree.

It is like if I keep my thermostat at 68, even though it is not tripped yet, the boiler knows what is set upstairs, and keeps internal temperature at slightly below what it needs to warm the house to 68. When it trips, it is ready.

If I keep it at 60, it should keep the boiler at lower temperature.

Is this logical? I mean is there anyway for Taco box to know what I set my temperature? I honestly DON'T THINK that the honeywell thermostats I have upstairs are that smart.. Isn't it just On/Off based on temp?
 
  #52  
Old 03-18-09, 09:38 AM
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Ricardo, in order for me to be able to help, you need to answer all my questions about the system.

Sorry to ask so many, but I need to know exactly how it's wired first... then suggest the changes... in the correct order.

The main question I had is in RED in post above...
 
  #53  
Old 03-18-09, 09:42 AM
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Trooper, there are no wires going to the gas valve.
How will the system operate with no wires going to the gas valve?
 
  #54  
Old 03-18-09, 10:00 AM
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I will check the wires, start tracing tomorrow, I need to get back home.
Regarding wires to gas valve, is it supposed to control gas flow? It doesn't control gas flow, gas valve is always open. Maybe I should go down there and take more pictures while I am checking for where each wires go.
 
  #55  
Old 03-18-09, 02:37 PM
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Maybe one question at a time is better idea?

#1 : What wires are on T and TV in the upper left corner of the aquastat?
 
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Old 03-18-09, 02:40 PM
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#2 : There are two yellow wires coming into the bottom of the aquastat, along with a RED and a WHITE. These are coming from your "Guard Dog".

One YELLOW goes to the BLACK wire in the cable going to the vent damper.

Where does the other YELLOW wire from the guard dog go?
 
  #57  
Old 05-01-09, 07:06 AM
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Gu NJ Trooper and Grady,
I apologize for not responding earlier. We had some electrical work done (it is in the other topic) and I was busy with my garage door for a while (finally fixed) and since the temps got much warmer, the switch of the boiler was flicked off for over a few weeks now. I could not get back to this topic. Now I may have some time on my hands, but what I will be doing is calling in a boiler service not just for this job but for them to actually fix the piping and route them correctly. During that period I will ask them to check the boiler programming/wiring and I will post back with their findings. Since I will be paying them for the pipe work, they might as well check out the boiler wiring too.

Unless you have any recommendations on who I should contact for this job.
 
  #58  
Old 05-01-09, 03:55 PM
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Ricardo

Check with friends, neighbors, relatives, co-workers, etc. to see if they've had similar work done & if so, by whom & how well satisfied they were. Word of mouth is the best/worst advertising a contractor can get.
 
  #59  
Old 10-06-09, 09:56 PM
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Hello, winter is almost here, and I finally got around to getting some work done on my boiler.

Here are two snaps:




Always Hot issue (wasting gas... keeping boiler flaming hot at +200F) :
Electrician realized that the previous electrician set this up as hot water tank to supply our hot water for the house, while we actually already had two hot water tanks for 2 floors. He said "they bypassed this thing" and pointed to something, and said that boiler kept the water always hot "thinking that" you get your hot water from the same boiler...

Zones:
Now that piping has been corrected (in the other Topic Here (Link)) we could now revert back to two zones (previously, I had somone simply hook both zones to my thermostat). Let's call them PRIMARY and Secondary zones. I asked the electrician if it would be possible for PRIMARY thermostat to have control of the boiler ON/OFF and max temperature, and the Secondary thermostat to simply have ability to turn off their zone but not turn on the boiler , i.e. (A) if it gets too hot and they don't want it (B) if their zone heats up faster than PRIMARY zone, and thermostat trips it OFF their zone when it reaches desired temp (C) or when they are not home for a long period of time, and they can just turn the thermostat to OFF.
He said there were two ways, A) we can get a 2nd aquastat and hook up both zones independently, and also we needed to some work on the control box, or B) He could hook up my thermostat DIRECTLY to aquastat, (I think with a parallel wire to my pump as pump would need to turn on as well..), and wire the Secondary zone's thermostat to control ONLY their pump. So what happens is, the Secondary zone can actually turn off their pump, therefore stopping heat from rising the temperature in their unit, when PRIMARY thermostat can simply turn off the aquastat, and turning off the boiler alltogether. The only problem I could see with this is the Secondary thermostat turning on the pump even when the boiler is off.. I need to test this last part only, but otherwise it seems to work fine as I ran a test yesterday, heating control is like what we asked for.
 
  #60  
Old 10-24-09, 09:16 AM
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Did anyone get a chance to look this over? I just want to make sure pump running all the time with cold water (considering Secondary Zone thermostat is triggered) will not damage anything. Plumber said there should not be any problem other than some water noises here and there, or as long as there is water circulating.
 
  #61  
Old 10-24-09, 05:09 PM
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Circ running

Why is the circulator running all the time? You have a 2 zone board, why not have separate stats for each zone?
 
  #62  
Old 10-24-09, 05:59 PM
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Did anyone get a chance to look this over?
Didn't your electrician do that?

What did he change?

Are these the same pictures you posted months back when you first asked? or are these new ones that show the way it's wired now, after the electrician did something?

seems to work fine as I ran a test yesterday, heating control is like what we asked for.
If it works fine, and is what you wanted, why would we still need to look it over?
 
  #63  
Old 10-24-09, 06:35 PM
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Grady,
I needed a master and slave zones. Even though my relay is two zone, if it was wired that way both zones could turn on the boiler anytime they needed. I did not want my tenant to be able to turn on the boiler whenever they wanted, since it is now 55-60's and laws don't require heat to be on until it is below 40 at night.

With the way it is wired now, I can turn on the boiler and and my zone's pump. Only when my thermostat is set to pump heat to 2nd floor, 1st floor can get heat from their thermostat.

If 1st floor's thermostat is set to 80, and if inside is 75, boiler will not run, only their pump will run.
If 2nd floor's thermostat is set to 80, and if inside is 75, boiler will turn on and my pump will also work. At this stage, 1st floor can also get heat too.

Trooper, I just posted pictures for everyone to see what he did in case if anyone was curious. These are the new pictures, if you can compare to the old ones. Working fine doesn't mean it is done correctly. Electricial just followed my instruction and said this is the only way it can work the way I want unless we buy another box or something.
 
  #64  
Old 10-24-09, 07:08 PM
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OK then, so you are happy with the way it is, and the only remaining question is will it hurt the pump to run 24/7 if your tenant leaves the thermostat turned up... no, it won't hurt the pump a bit...

laws don't require heat to be on until it is below 40 at night.
Boy, I'd be a mighty pi55ed off tenant if my landlord didn't let me have any heat until it was below 40 at night! Do your tenants get to deduct the price of the wooly socks and sweaters and hats they have to wear to keep warm from the rent? I guess you must know the laws though. I always heard that the heat had to be on by October 15th...
 
  #65  
Old 10-25-09, 10:39 AM
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No of course I wouldn't wait until it was 40 to turn on the heat. That was just a way to give an example. The tenants are not paying for heating gas, and believe me when I was back in my co-op, we used to feel very cold during OCT/NOV months since the temps were always 50's and the boiler never turned off. Even when we were paying $700/month maintanence. Oh my tenants got nothing to worry about heating, last year we had single zone in the whole house they complained it was too hot and they wanted a way to turn off the heat. which wasn't possible for them. Since my floor (2nd floor) has almost 5 degree variance in temp (colder) I will end up keeping the heat on long time, so if they feel it is too hot, instead of cracking windows, they can simply turn off their pump.

Thanks for your answer on the pump.
 
  #66  
Old 10-25-09, 11:04 AM
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I know yer not gonna 'freeze them out' !

I did look at the laws though, and they actually are quite confusing in a way.

And yes we are getting off the subject... just for a bit, then back to the regularly scheduled programming.

It says: from Oct 1 to May 15, if daytime temps drop below 55 the apartments must be maintained at least 68, if night time drops below 40, temps inside must be at least 55.

The way it's worded makes it sound as though it's on a 'day by day' basis though, which would mean that say in January there was a warm day that the temp didn't go below 55 the LL could turn off the heat for that day.

I _think_ it means that AFTER the first day it drops below 55 or night 40, that the heat must be maintained at those temps, right?
 
 

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