I asked about the antifreeze because there has been a bit of noise out there lately concerning its compatibility with Pro-Press fittings.

If you're in a somewhat urban area antifreeze shouldn't be needed, and has a few downsides.

 

K thanks for the warning. Sooo how do you tell if there's antifreeze. Would it be the same green stuff as for my car? I am sure he didnt add any of his own, i would have seen the container

I'm assuming since the pipes were in a crawlspace with only 2 openings that they didnt need it when installing but im not positive of course.

so anyone have any idea if the checkvalve (?) is supposed to be heard throughout the system? I hate to be a nit pick but i also hate new stuff /noise introduced that wasnt here before

 

It would NOT be the green stuff like in your car. Boiler antifreeze is usually pink but some automotive is also pink so don't let color be your guide.
Some plumbing supply houses sell a kit to test the freeze protection point and the pH. The pH is very important.

You should not hear the check valve at all, let alone thru the whole system. In fact, you shoudn't hear anything except maybe the burner & possibly heat expansion.

 

"I still like the old boiler system Wendy! Will ya take a look at that damper! and that PIG's TAIL!"

 

Lucky, something you said earlier that you said your installer said made me wonder if that 'extra thing' he wants to install might be a Beckett Heat Manager... don't let him do it if it is. You can't have two controllers wanting to control the same thing... they'll fight...

 

Ok, assuming i'm right and it's the check valve, what can be done? just a straight replacement. You definitely hear a 'rattle' throughout the house. Not earthshattering but isnt the normal water running thru the pipe noise

 

he didnt use that term...and i forget the name of the relay..i just knew he took the cover off the stat and was trying to figure out the wiring..and said he would call someone about it i think....he definitely said it would start the circulator first then if it didnt satisfy demand after X minutes, the burner would fire. Is that that the BHM does?

Also, i was in there as the thing was ready to fire and saw the temp was 125 so of course it was supposed to turn on. When the circulator kicked on the temp shot up to 139 within seconds then settled down to the low 130s and took a little time to get up to the upper limit.

i'm assuming that 14 degree shoot up is the 'efficiency' he's trying to maximize. Thus the delay he wants between circ starting vs burner too.

the way he described the 'delay relay' was that when it called for burner it would just delay it...like a timer..doesnt sound to me (the non electrical person that i am) that it would be fighting

so after my description..what do you think? Would anything be fighting and if so, exactly what? He would listen to me if i came back at him with facts so ill try to gather them before my decision

 

http://www.becketthm.com/pdf/61580%2...ta%20Sheet.pdf

i took a peek at that and am pretty sure thats not what he means. That device in the picture has a sensor for temperature and i'm pretty sure what he was talking about is a tiny relay (he showed me the size of it by way his hand) that's sole purpose is a time delay for the firing. Wish i could remember the darn name.

here, in this pic on the left i made a black circle (hard to see i know) ..this is where i hear the noise..what is that? And how hard is it to replace?

 

You should not hear a check valve or water running thru the pipes. Both are indications of air in the system.

 

wonder why he wouldnt know that? he knew everything else? I see the valve on top there , i guess i can try bleeding that as well as the baseboards i can easily reach

edit: i also have one tiny nitpick. When i first started my search for boilers someone told me about indirect..that the tank wont call for heat unless there's domestic in use. One of the salesguys even went so far as to say if you went away for a month in summer, no hot water call means the boiler would never fire!

well after all this was installed i asked my contractor about this..and would it get cold if i never turned on the water. He said it's less than 1/2 degree a day it loses but if it got colder it would make the boiler fire. I do have the book but off hand does anyone know about how many degrees the triangle 40 has to go down before it kicks on

he said if i go away a few days just turn it off in summer at the emergency switch

 

I really want that temperature sensor that is strapped to the copper pipe insulated. In fact, I would like to see all of the piping insulated.

 

LuckyD...

The Tekmar 260 has what is called an Unoccupied Mode. It can do several things, one of which is setting a lower temperature for the occupied portions of the home when no one is home, and it can also be used to disable the DHW heat calls--that is an option on one of the dip switches, if recall correctly. Unoccupied mode is done by closing two terminals on the Tekmar. I have a switch mounted in my indoor sensor that we flip when going on vacation. That takes care of lowering the house temp and also disables the DHW.

Any indirect will try to maintain a minimum and maximum temperature; it is normally set by a thermostat attached to the indirect tank. The water has to be kept warm enough to prevent bacteria from growing in the tank. So yes, the boiler should fire if the indirect temperature falls reaches the low limit.

Furd's comments on the sensor are covered in the Tekmar installation manual--the small strap-on sensor should have a layer of pipe insulation over it.

Pete

 

I have no doubt that someone could describe it that way.

Because noone can know everything... some ppl are savants.

It may be an inline spring loaded flow check valve. Can you get a closer shot? Any words on it?

No disrespect, but for whom do you ask?

My guess is that the reason it's making noise is because it's receiving a turbulent flow coming off that elbow, and just before the pump. The pump might not be all that happy about it either. At least from what I can see, it appears that is the hot supply from the boiler? It's not a great idea to install anything restrictive that close to the suction side of the pump in any case. Did you say the sound gets louder the hotter the water in the system gets?

Just looked at all the pics again... sketched a diagram so I could understand the system. That flow check is on the discharge of the pump. But, even so, the flow coming off that valve and hitting that elbow is probably 'all shook up' ... I wonder if there was a foot of straight pipe after that valve if it would make that noise.

You shouldn't need to do anything with the valves on top as far as bleeding goes... those are automatic... as long as the cap is left loose to let the air escape.

 

When the system is shut down for a while, not everything cools off at the same rate. The pipes that the sensor is on will cool far faster than the innards of the boiler. (INSULATE (at the very least) THAT SENSOR!) So what you see when the circs first kick on is a 'slug' of hot water coming out of the boiler immediately. Once things start flowing, after a few seconds, the temps level out. I doubt that's the 'efficiency' he's talking about, that's just something that happens...

 

Another observation...

You should evaluate the electrical bonding of the domestic water system after all these changes. See where that wire comes out of the electrical box and is clamped to the water pipe? I believe now that you have all that pex tubing, there may be issues with part of your domestic piping being NOT bonded properly. Where those two 1/2" pipes are ... next to the electrical box ... I believe that ground bonding wire needs to at least extend to the hot water pipe next to it. I also think that the boiler piping needs to be bonded... not sure if the indirect needs it or not... but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea...

Any electrician dudes care to comment on this possibility?

 

Trooper is correct, any piping system that has isolation pieces (like PEX tubing) needs to be bonded, preferably with #6 copper wire.

 

Ill get a pic of it later but looked at it now. Only thing on it was 1 1/4 and there were 2 letters between the 1 and 1/4 but i cant tell if it said IN or what. There's an arrow that points to the elbow and as you noted that is the pipe that comes from the boiler and feeds down into my crawl.

last night i bled as many baseboards as i could and no air in any. (side note, the upstairs multi fin radiator was hotter than ever and also the room quite warm) Now did i mess up his bleeder on top of the new setup by tightening it? i opened it and saw water coming out then tightened it. Was it a mistake to tighten it?

I dont know if it's louder when the water is hotter, i will have to try to note that today. It IS sorta annoying when you are laying in bed trying to sleep but i'm sure ill get used to it. But should have to is the issue?

So if you think 1ft of pipe after that would solve it, i guess it would have to be in the vertical part of that black pipe? And is that feasible or wise to do?

and when he came thursday he did insulate the sensor. Ill study the bonding then too.

 

Ok i studied it a bit more and that pipe next to bonded one is the supply to the house domestic. So thats something sounds like i can do..just but new wire and screw it onto the old pipe then the new one?

the indirect setup only has one bit of copper, a 6 inch pipe...is that where you think it needs bonded?

And regarding all the copper on the boiler setup, are you saying i should just do it since no harm can come from it? I dont understand all this electrical stuff but if a few bucks for wiring and a clamp is all it takes to be safe, i can do that easily. I just want to make sure me doing something doesnt do more harm that good.

Also now that i think about it, why must the domestic pipe actually be bonded? Is that in case anything else it attached to it that I dont know about? Since the electric box is definitely bonded to the 'street pipe' i guess i dont get why there has to be more.

 

does a target temp of 172 make sense for a domestic call. Today was the 1st time someone else was showering and i noticed the boiler kick on so i went to check and it was only a DHW call, not heat call. Then i noticed it said target temp 172 and was at 135 when i went in the room. The shower water was running less than 5 min when it kicked on so i guess that would be 10ish gallons used and i guess the 40 gallon tank said hey, i need to be warmed up.

just want to make sure this is how things are supposed to work. I have to read the book i guess but i dont get why the DHW needs to go to 172 when just to heat up the house it doesnt go nearly that high.

edit just noticed that the boiler came on again when the temp dropped to 143..said DHW demand. And while the temp was above 160 i turned the boiler demand on for just a bit figuring maybe some of that heat would go to the baseboard but then i remembered he told me DHW has priority for about 30 min.

Also i couldnt hear the check valve rattling i guess because with DHW water wasnt going that way. But i still heard 'a type of 'rattling in the system but i couldnt localize it. So the check valve isnt totally to blame. I had turned up the heat thermostat so it was calling for both boiler and DHW. I did put my ear next to the taco and it was plain to hear there. I turned down the DHW temp and then of course the noise was heard in the check valve but when i turned the water temp back up, the check valve became quiet and the rattle noise was elsewhere but just couldnt isolate it. I did notice there is one vent on top where i didnt see before but water just came out of there too so i dont think there is any air

 

The 260 should have a DHW boil target of 180. Says so in the manual.

You want hot water for a DHW call so that all the cold water coming in to the indirect will get heated in a timely fashion. The tekmar views DHW calls as a 'stop everything and get it done, now' kind of thing. Which is nice. It keeps the differential tight and targets 180F.

Following the DHW call, the 260 will do a post-purge of some sort (straight purge, mixing purge) to mix down the hot boiler water to a temperature more suitable for the space heating.

On the piping. As other have observed, it's kinda tight and that might explain some of the chattering. For example, the standard air scoop he's using should have a straight approach of 18". And generally you want about 8-9 pipe diameters (i.e., 8-9 inches if 1" pipe) of straight pipe before and after a circulator.

It should work ok.

 

I guess it would be asking too much that even if there was no call for heat that the 172 degree DHW target would pump that nice hot water into the baseboards?

I do realize it's a tight squeeze and he probably did everything to prevent the spaghetti i had before. But if adding just a few feet of pipe would have prevented this noise, i would have paid for it.

what's an air scoop? the damper thing in the stack pipe? I ask because sometimes when the thing turns off it's a loud clank and i assumed it's that shutting quickly or something or closing. And i still do have the occasional 'boom' on startup but i guess i cant do anything about it.

and one thing i never asked him about is that it does appear the burner turns on but doesnt fire for a few seconds.

 

what should work? i got all turned around lol

 

hate to pile on but i think something is wrong.

It runs like 3 min then stops then 2 min later it runs (all while calling for heat).

I watched the following:

target temp was 141 so low would be 133 and high would be 149. Watched it heat up to the high then watched it cool down...it got to about the 141 then fired up again. It should wait until it gets to 133 right?

Then watched it another time and it was dropping down to the 133 then the burner indicator came on the tekmar but it doesnt ignite right away. It takes about 5 seconds and in those 5 seconds the boiler temp shoots up to 149 but then it fires and then it dropped down to the low 140s. Also thats when i hear the boom sometime. That really annoys and even scares me sometimes.

I'm upped the differential to +- 9 since it seems to cool down pretty quickly and while i know i'll have to get used to the new more frequent on and offs, i just think it shouldnt be 2-3 min between turn off and refire should it? He did tell me part of the reason for the boom was that it did turn on and off so much but i dont know if thats true or not.

(someone before asked about noise and now that ive lived with it i can say it IS louder than my old setup. Of course i have a utility room next to my living space so i'm gonna hear every little thing. )

edit: it's been over 1/2 hour since the boiler was on and i had a call for DHW and it did the loud boom when it started. so i guess the 'shorter' cycling isnt the only possible cause for it since it had all that time to rest.

 

The 260 takes a couple weeks to gather enough data to start tuning things. Short-cycling during 'break-in' is tolerable.

I would leave the differential at "Ad" (Auto, or whatever) for a couple weeks. Or if you just can't bring yourself to do that, set it for 20 (+10, -10).

Try to avoid playing with stuff and let it learn.

 

well he's the one that took it off auto and put in the plus minus 8. (i since upped it to 9). So since he did that, is it safe to assume how it acts now is how it will always act? I have to assume he took it off auto based on his experience.

and that boom upon startup simply is not acceptable to me. Do you think he can do anything about it? I know it's only about 20% of the time but still, i dont like it.

 

I did mention previously that the boom on startup is most likely being caused by delayed ignition. And I even recommended that the system be shut down until the installer was able to correct this issue.

It should not be this way and is dangerous. If one time the ignition delay gets a little longer you will find pieces of that system scattered about your utility room.

IOW: it has to be fixed, there is no other choice.

Al.

 

I saw that but dont understand why the same delay doesn't produce the same result every single time if it's always the same parameters and i'm trying to gather info for when i call him. I guess I have to get on him to adjust things better but let me ask you, when he said the most he can adjust the CO is 11.6%, is that what has to do with the delay you are talking about?

Or put another way, what is the proper way to fix this? is it the fuel air mixture or something in the tekmar that needs adjusted?

 

Delayed ignition can be caused by a number of items. Basically it is an issue with the way the burner is set up. The CO2 level doesn't have anything to do with this problem.

The burner works by spraying a fine mist of fuel oil out of the nozzle, while at the same time spraying air into this cloud of oil. The ignition system ignites the oil & air mixture to produce the flame.

The ignition system has to light-off the oil/air mix the instant it starts to spray. To do this there are two rods with sharp points on the tips that are about 1/8" apart from each other. The ignition transformer produces between 10-thousand and 20-thousand volts that is applied to the ignition rods.

This voltage then jumps or sparks across the 1/8" gap between the rods. As the oil spray begins (the air is already being sprayed) it should be instantly ignited by this spark.

If the ignition rods (commonly called the ignitors) are not properly adjusted there can be a delay in igniting the oil/air mix. With a delay this oil/air mix starts to fill the combustion chamber, then moves to filling the heat exchanger area, and then on to filling the flue followed by the chimney. If the oil/air mix gets this far before being ignited it gets ugly real fast (Google "fuel air bomb", with the quotes).

With your system it isn't getting that far. It has some oil/air mix in the chamber and maybe not much further. Still enough to produce a good boom. A shorter delay can cause a woof to occur during ignition. Even this is bad and is not correct.

As far as adjustment of the ignitors, when out of adjustment the spark can jump from an ignitor tip to the flame retention head. The tips may be too far above the nozzle line. Too far back, or the gap could be too wide or too small. A too wide of a gap can cause the spark to arc to the oil feed tube or a support brace.

The transformer output (the 10-20KV) may not be properly connected to the ignitors. A wire to the transformer may be loose.

The nozzle angle may be incorrect. Which puts the fuel spray in a location where the ignitors can't light it right away.

All in all, the burner isn't correctly set up.

Al.

 

ty for the excellent explanation. I called him on my way home from work and left a msg that this is unacceptable and i cant be scared by all these booms and i was worried about safety issues.

just now i heard the burner ( i assume that's what it is) turn on...whirring noise..then counted out 10 seconds until i heard a boom..wasnt the loudest i ever heard but was still disconcerting. I just wonder how long after the burner starts that it's supposed to ignite. Would that be in all my literature?

 

It has 15 second prepurge to allow the motor to get the speed and for pump pressure. Much cleaner startup for the flame. Shouldn't go Boom! however. I bet the damper is flying open

Is that a spring check valve I see in the photos? They can be noisy!!

Pedro

 

ah ok so the delay on startup like that is normal. Thanks for telling me that. I never asked him about that.

Yes i hear the damper open and that's loud..i can deal with it..also SLAMS shut too (i guess thats what the LOUD noise is when it turns off?)

I dont know what kind of check valve it is but i will ask him since i can put my ear right there and hear it and i'm tired of resonating thru the baseboards. Is there some other type of check valve i can have him put in or is there another ez remedy.

 

Show us a better picture of the valve and we can tell you what it is. It looks like a brass cylinder in line with the piping between the circulators from what I can make out.

Most systems use what are called gravity flow check valves, or circulators with internal flow check valves. Spring loaded ones can be noisy.

 

I also imagine i smell a bit of oil...no leaks though...and if i put my nose near the tigerloop i imagine i smell it but it may be just residue off the old filter assembly..he reused my old one

took pics of the pump right next to the check valve..any chance it's 'too powerful' and that's causing the issue with the rattling? the baseboards sure do give off nice heat now though..even the cold room i had before and the radiator upstairs is hotter than ever.

if you need more pics let me know. Id love some other kind of valve in there if possible

 

Spring check valve.

Pedro

 

so is it reasonable of me (and is it a prudent application) to change the type of valve there? He's the one that said he put in all the shut offs so if he had to work on one part of the system it would be easy

 

It has nothing to do with shutoff valves, which do help isolate the system when work is needed!

A gravity flow check valve instead of that spring check might reduce the valve noise... If that is where it is coming from....

This has nothing to do with the BOOM to make sure we are on the same page...

 

A quick & easy test to see if the noise is from the valve, replace it with a piece of regular pipe. If the noise goes away then you & the installer will know it is from the valve. If so then a plan can be put together for a different type of valve. Gravity operated flow checks rarely make noise.

Al.

 

You may not like this list, but....

No isolation valves at the circulator pumps.

No valves and drain to "power purge" air from the zones.

There should be several feet of straight pipe before the air scoop - they work best with NON turbulent flow, air has risen to the top of the pipe.

A more modern device such as a Spirovent or B&G EASB is better than the old cast iron log air scoop at eliminating entrained air.

Crimped copper fittings may look nice but any future changes or repairs will be much more difficult/expensive - cut & replace vs unsolder and change. Any plumber who showed up at my door with that stuff they would be asked to leave since it says they're more concerned with finishing the job fast as possible.

Circulators with built-in check valves are available to eliminate external checks (and less joints).

 

If it is the current valve, will a gravity one fit right in that tight space in place of the current one?

I dont mind hearing the truth My guess is he was trying to eliminate spaghetti and the mess i had before and shorten everything up. But now from what everyone is saying, a few more feet of pipe likely would have solved my 'valve' noise and apparently you are saying the scoop wont work right. I dont understand what a scoop does but per your description above, it appears to have to do with air in the system. If thats the case, and i bled everything a few times myself, why would air get into the system now? ie is this something i should complain about, will air continue to get in this system now, and is maybe this scoop contributing to my other noise?

Understood about the crimped fittings but since my 60 yr old system never leaked, i darn well expect this new one never to either! and regarding the shut offs, i commented how many ball valves i saw and he said that's to make it easier if repairs are needed but apparently you are saying even more were needed! Unfortunately i doubt that will change now.

thanks for the suggestion on the circ with built in valve..maybe ill ask him about that since it seems the easiest to me..but what do i know My guess is though that if another value can be replaced in my current 'space' he would do that. cheaper.

 

I dont understand this nozzle type stuff but here goes:

good news...he called the manufacturer about my problem and he said the boiler comes with a B nozzle but he didnt like that it did and didnt think it was right for the burner. But didnt want to change it unless they said it was OK because down the road didnt want them saying it's the wrong one and there be issues. So they told him it was OK to put the W in that he wanted

then he told me even for his own NY boiler he went thru 6 nozzles before finding the right one.

he's also going to try to install that relay on the aquastat tomorrow to prevent any short cycling. Rest assured i'm going to ask how that is supposed to work and how to adjust it after he's gone in case i want to

no way will he have time to do anything about the check valve but i will discuss it with him of course. My main concern is to stop the booming. I also want to revisit why he said it's better for him to have done a manual differential instead of letting the 260 do it.

any last minute questions you want me to ask before tomorrows visit? I did offer to put it off until next week but he wanted to get in here and fix it so 2 points for the effort!