Help, can't keep warm!


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Old 12-27-08, 12:35 PM
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Help, can't keep warm!

We live in Iowa - so it gets below zero during the winter. We retrofitted a new boiler with baseboards to a 1918 home. We moved the house so we were able to pour a new foundation and put radiant floor heat in the basement. Boiler is in the basement. The basement stays warm always, often above the thermostat temp. The upstairs does OK also, but the main level sometimes can't make it to even 64 degrees. Each floor has its own thermostat and I have them programmed separately. My husband and I cannot agree on which is best or most efficient. Knowing that cold air goes down, I have the upstairs set at 64 during the day and 60 at night. The main level is set at the same as is the basement. We aren't upstairs during the day, the bedrooms are up there, but I thought it would be best to keep it at 64 up there because if lower than the main level, the cold air would travel down and make it harder to maintain the main level temp. The basement and upstairs can easily go from 60 to 64 in the morning, but the main level sometimes takes 3-4 hours to move up 4 degrees. My husband wants to leave the whole house at 64 all the time so we don't have this problem. I want to leave it set to lower at night to save money. It already cost us close to $600 to heat the month of December. We put in new windows and new insulation in the attic. Insulation was blown into the walls at some point in time - before we bought the house. Is this a boiler problem, do we need to blow in more insulation? I've never lived in a 2 storey before and don't know if that makes a difference. We're just cold and spending a huge amount of money on heating.
 
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Old 12-27-08, 02:58 PM
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Hi Steph, and welcome to the forum. The answer is most definitely more insulation or better said, more weatherization, because just adding insulation isn't always the right answer. A very good place to start would be an energy audit, infrared camera, blower door, and a full inspection of your home. The results would tell you where your energy dollars are going and what to do to stop the loss. Once your house is tightened up, then the response of your heating system will be much better and you and the wife can go back to discussing comfort levels.

As for setting back the temp at night, the slow response of the radiant heat makes it difficult to save a lot and maintain the desired temps. And once you tighten up the house, when you turn the temp down, it will take hours to respond because the house will hold the heat.

If you would like to DIY the audit, there are many on-line sites to walk you through the basics, and of course this board will be glad to help.

HH Bud
 
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Old 12-27-08, 03:36 PM
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Sometimes your local utility will recommend the people they use for energy audits. Even though free ones are usually for low income people, you may get lucky and them tell you who the use so you can hire them.

I had a blower test done and it was an eye opener! So far i've pulled off the wood from most of my window sills and foamed that up. Just that 2 days of labor paid a huge dividend in not feeling wind on my face anymore

good luck

PS I may not have the exact heating system as you but on my new boiler it took over 2 hours to get up 2 degrees and that was on a 30-40 degree day. (your days are much colder) No way would i ever set back more than 2-3 degrees and my installer reinforced that as well. I'm not a pro but this is my real life experience.
 
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Old 12-27-08, 04:09 PM
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how is the HI-LIMIT temp.setting on the boiler for water into the spaces?do you have cathedral ceilings in the living space?you would benefit from the purchase of a laser thermometer to see those leakage points when the wind is blowing out there.
 
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Old 12-27-08, 05:54 PM
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Thanks

for the input. Sounds like the first thing I should do is reset the thermostats to just stay at 64 degrees 24 hours a day? Then get an energy audit scheduled.
 
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Old 12-27-08, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by stephhassler
for the input. Sounds like the first thing I should do is reset the thermostats to just stay at 64 degrees 24 hours a day? Then get an energy audit scheduled.
I agree with this. For some reason setback never made sense to me. When the thermostat is setback everything cools off. Then we bump the temperature to make it comfortable and it takes a lot of time/fuel for this.

Sorta' of like the Tortoise and the Hare. Slow and steady wins the race. The other side of this is to become a little more familiar with the system. Get a feel for when it runs and for how long. Put your hand on the inside walls that are to the exterior. How cold do they feel?

Are there drafts when the wind blows? If so, where are they coming from. It is amazing how easy it is to feel cold intruding to the inside.

Al.
 
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Old 12-28-08, 04:35 AM
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I agree with the energy audit and how many local utilities offer them for free. We had one done last November and learned alot about home energy conservation.

While you are waiting, do Google something like 'self energy audits' to learn how you can do at least a preliminary one yourself. Yes, there are lots of government and private web sites out there on this topic.

Lastly, with regards to the 1st floor not receiving much heat you say you are using radiant heating so you don't (I don't think) have to worry about getting that old roll of duct tape to cover any gaps in your duct work. What about the insullation in the attic? An under-insullated attic is a great energy waster. Have you looked to see that the entire attic was fully insullated to the same depth??

What type of windows did you actually install as the replacement? Were they ENERGY STAR rated?

Lastly, you might want to consider investing in an infra-red temperature device and use it along the exterior walls of the 1st floor where I think you indicate the issue is with to see what parts of the wall are colder than others....which would indicate any number of things including what parts of the wall have insufficient insullation vs other parts of the wall.

OK, really lastly, you say the basement is sufficiently warm and I know nothing about radiant heating as I have never lived in a home that uses anything other than force air natural gas. However, and I hate to even suggest this, if you have radiant floor heating on the ceiling of the basement to heat the 1st floor, were the radiant tubes installed upside down? Is this even possible? Why else would "The basement stays warm always, often above the thermostat temp" but the 1st floor take forever to warm up with radiant heating?

Dan
 
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Old 12-28-08, 07:56 AM
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were the radiant tubes installed upside down? Is this even possible?
No, not possible ... the tubing radiates equally from the entire circumference.

Why else would "The basement stays warm always, often above the thermostat temp" but the 1st floor take forever to warm up with radiant heating?
Lotsa reasons... ranging from just plain old bad design, to an actual error, to a possible bad component, to air trapped in the non-heating loop.

Bad design: Perhaps too much tubing installed in the basement, and not enough on the first floor. Any installer of radiant heating must be fully aware of the various heat losses in the building, and the actual capabilities of radiant heat... i.e. how many BTU/SQ FT is possible.

Actual error: Perhaps the thermostat wiring is reversed? Maybe the thermostat for the first floor is firing the basement zone, vice versa. Think about what that could do... exactly these symptoms. 1st floor calls for heat, never gets any cuz it's going into the basement zone. Basement hot, 1st floor cold. This is what I would look at first. Before anything else is done, check EVERYTHING... assume nothing, suspect everything.

Bad component: Stuck circulator, stuck (or misadjusted) mixing valve, etc.

Air lock: will stop flow in a zone. No flow, no heat.
 
 

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