Riello Burner fails to ignite occassionally.


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Old 12-27-08, 07:08 PM
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Question Riello Burner fails to ignite occassionally.

All New in May 2006
Boiler-Viessmann 100 VR1-27
Burner-Riello 40 F3
Power Vent-Tjernlund ss2 sideshot.
Aquastat-Honeywell model unknow no label on outside of it.

Last nite I notice the power vent running and running and running?
When I checked the bolier was down to about 90 degrees
pressure 15ish
Red reset/restart button lite on Riello.

Scatched my head and went ahead and hit the reset.
It started up and then ran for about 15-20 minutes until it
got back up to 160 degrees.

It was OK the rest of the nite. Went to bed and all was fine when we got up.

Checked burner, OK. Later when my teenage son takes one of his extended showers, burner starts, ignites runs for 10-15 minutes, shuts down fine. Next attempt to start/ignite it fails.

I went to try and get a new oil filter but all the supply stores closed early on saturday.

Let it sit awhile, use reset button and it starts. Cycles on and off half a dozen more times during the course of the day.

I took a look at the flame while it was running,
bright yellow/orange, though it looked more full on the left side then the right side.

We did lose power on the 11th and it wasnt restored until the 16th! During that time we heated the house by boiling water on our gas stove and coldest basement got was 60.

Not sure if burner was running when power went out BUT we did have to hit the reset to get it going once power was restored.

I opened the bleeder fitting on the burner and took a 2-3 oz sample of oil. It was fine, no sign of water, very clean.

We currently have over 3/4 of a 225 gallon tank.

?, when I opened that the bleeder fitting, it slowly dripped out.
Should it have run out real steady?

We had alot of snow last week and one point the vent and filler cap outside the house were under a snow drift for a few days.

tks

Pete
 
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Old 12-27-08, 09:08 PM
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Has the boiler been serviced yearly? i.e. nozzle changed, electrodes set... all that stuff ?
 
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Old 12-28-08, 08:37 AM
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No! I failed to mention house was not 1st occupied until March of 08...

Originally Posted by NJ Trooper
Has the boiler been serviced yearly? i.e. nozzle changed, electrodes set... all that stuff ?
Warmer here today and burner went on as scheduled at 6am to heat house upto 68 degrees. (usually climbs to 70 all by itself once we get up and make breakfast and sun comes up!)

Real test will be when said teenager takes his daily "too long" shower and uses up all the hot water!

And I agree I have been negligent in not getting it "tuned up".
But the system saw little to no use from May 06 until we moved in March 08.

Where I live the local heating co's do not even sell service contracts.
One "In Town" co. seem to prefer to "drag you over the hot coals" with emergency calls to make $$$, Not nice at all!

Most of the co's selling Oil recommend 3rd party independent plumbing/heating pro's. Whole biz model is a'la carte.
Guess it keeps thier liability down and they use 3rd party pro's on a as needed basis. Keeps fixed employee costs down.

Really wanted to do it myself as I am a total DYI type.

I have the time, work as a PC software consultant retty slow in this economy.

Totally maintain cars myself from oil changes, diag's of error codes to changing timing belts. Heck, I even removed and mounted my last set of tires! (If you leave them out in the hot sun for a few hours its alot easier).

Know my way around basic electronics and have a digital multimeter.

Yesterday spent the day reading the installation manuals of the Viessmann and the SS2 sideshot. Couldnt find much on the Riello 40 F3 besides what was contained in the Viessmann install guide.

I read some of the other threads about DIY boiler/burner maintenance.

From my very limited new found knowledge comes a few observations.

Whoever installed the SS2 was "lazy". The install guide states it comes with only 3 screw installed on the cover for ease of installation and states installer must install the other 7 found in the enclosed hardware bag.
Guess how many screws are installed in my SS2? yes 3!

Also lists defaults for the dip switches that set the various setable parameters like pre/post purge. By default unit comes with the draft adjuster set to highest draft possible.
Guess where that appears to be set?
Post-Purge was set for 4 minutes, again the default. Choices are 0, 30 seconds!, 1, 2, 4, 8, or 16 minutes.
I am trying it out on 2 minutes as the duct run is just a few feet.
The pre-purge was set to O seconds, changed that to 5 seconds. Although I have a short vent run I do have a very tight ProFab house that may have a "negative pressure prone enviroment"
I definitely need a pro to do a proper draft test and get the draft adjusted!
The Viessmann install manual list 2 distinct setups on the Riello burner. One is for Direct Vent and one is for Chimney vented.

Now I dont have a Chimney, Have that SS2 Sideshot vented out the side of the house. The air gate was set at 3.4 as per the Riello instructions for a chimnery vented system.
The air gate setting for a Direct Vent system is 5!
I believe my setup is equivalent to a chimney vented system as I read Direct Vent means the intake air is supplied via a Direct vent from outside?

Interesting the Direc tvent uses a small nozzle and has a higher air gate setting?
Is it inherently more efficient?

The gasket on the combustion chamber "observation door" (not sure what you call it) has a small 1-2 cm piece missing!
That not too cool is it? Can not see or feel heat or air escaping from there when the burner is running but best get a new one of those.


Sooo... On Monday AM I will call my new oil supplier and ask for nbr of their recommended Burner pro!

I dont think I am going to get to the point where I am going to get all the test equipment to read the smoke and CO2 etc.

What I would like to be able to do is to change the fuel filter at bottom of tank.
Check/clean strainer, airtube, ignition points, air tube,
change/clean Nozzle and any other mechanical service able items on the Riello myself.
Then all the Pro has to do is run tests and adjust as needed.

As the DIY thread says, too many times the tech's are rushed and do a quick "cleaning", test it, passes, OK done type of job!

Heck, I let the oil drain from my car for over an hour and on one of my cars get a whole additional pint of oil out of by using my floor jack to tilt it from side to side a few times!

Sorry for the overly long post,
As you can see I'm a little, make that a lot on the anal retentive side, LOL!

tks for your great DYI website and for this forumn in particular.

Pete

 
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Old 12-29-08, 11:26 AM
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Running ok, Svc appt made for 1/5...

So far, so good.
Called and scheduled cleaning/maintenance for next Monday.

I did not change filter, will wait and see what tech does or doesn't do.

Will make sure draft is checked and SS2 sidekick is setup properly.

Pete
 
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Old 01-01-09, 02:06 PM
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Interesting thread!

I have a boiler with the Tjernlund Sideshot SS 1C and an F5 Riello Burner.
System is almost 12 years old and worked well until about 2 years ago when burner exhibited similiar symptoms you described.

Service guy had to come out about once a month (I have a contract with oil supplier) because burner would not light. He proceeded to change the nozzle 3 times in 3 months and the problem returned promptly.
Finally got tired of this and called the company to request another tech to come out who knew what he was doing.
He did a complete test on my system and found the airgate WAY OUT of adjustment. The other so called tech had removed the hydraulic airgate on the F5 and just used a plug in its place without bothering to re-adjust the air.

Note that I have had an annual cleaning and adjustments done since the thing was new. That's essential for good performance. So much depends on the tech knowing what he is doing.

Some advice about the Side Shot Venter:

Make sure you take the motor off every 2 to 3 years and clean of the blades of the suirrel fan. They accumulate a lot of combustion crap which has to be scraped off with a small wirebrush. This will also prevent an unbalance in running.

Also check the connection of the air tube between the fan proving switch and the venter every once in a while. Mine leaked and the burner would fire intermittantly. Other than that I've been good with this system for almost 12 years now.

BTW I added a Beckett heat manager to my system last winter and I am very happy with its performance. It drastically reduced short cycling and has saved me quite a bit of oil already, not to mention burner wear and tear.
I modified the wiring in my triple aquastat to have the circulator running whenever there is a call for heat, regardless of the water temp. It only makes sense since that really takes advantage of the "economizing" feature of the heat manager
Cheers
 
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Old 01-02-09, 05:45 PM
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Question tks for the heads up/tips on the sideshot...

torpedo,
I will clean it tomorrow and finally get around to installing
those 7 missing sheet metal screws in the front plate too!

Will check out the Beckett Heat Manager.

Today the wife felt cold? go figure, its in high 20's today and she feels cold, yesterday it never even made it to 20 and it was blowing 20-25 most of the day.

So wife kept turning temp up on stat, needless to say burner kept cycling on and off alot.

Boiler temp hit 190 today?
This was during the time it kept cycling on and off with 2 zones circulating.

Seemed to be running the burner more then need be.
I am not sure wha the high temp limit is/should be.
But I would of thought the burner would of cut out by 190 and let the water temp run down a bit before firing some more?

I am looking fwd to the tech from the new supplier coming to service this on Monday afternoon! Last company didnt give me a warm/fuzzy feeling at all.

Pete
 
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Old 01-03-09, 06:02 PM
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I set my hi limit to 180 which means that the burner will shut off at 180 and come back on again at 170 (180 - 10) provided there's a heat call. This can mean a lot of cycling on and off when it's fairly cold outside.
That's why I like my heat manager so much.
It keeps the burner from cycling on at hi limit - 10 ( 180 - 10) and just runs the circulator with the hot water still left in the boiler.
When the heat manager allows the burner to come back on depends on the return water temp.
It's been fairly cold here lately and my boiler does not come back on until the water temp is around 150 to 160.
This of course prevents so called short cycling and saves oil and wear and tear on the furnace.
I like it!!!
 
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Old 01-05-09, 11:01 AM
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Post cleaning/adjustments made by Tech...

Service Tech from oil company came today.
He arrived a couple of hours early!
1st he performed a routine annual cleaning.
Changed filter at bottom of oil tank, reported is was fine.
Changed burner nozzle.
Checked air gate setting was to Boiler specs
Ajdusted turbolator from 1.5 to 2.0, which is boiler spec.
Cleaned combustion chamber,
I saw him blow out some small supply lines?
Once he finished the standard cleaning he checked the
Sideshot2 power vent dip switch settings.
He set the pre-purge back to 0 seconds(I had it at 5 seconds)
Post-purge at 4 minutes(I had it at 2 minutes)
It appears his experience with this brand of ventilator was
with the SS1. He did not adjust the draft setting or high heat limit on the SS2. He did check the aquastat and found it set to 200, lowered that to 180. Said this aquastat did not have a
lower limit, Just the high?
I added it seemed the whenever the hot water tank called for any heat at all, the burner fires up. Even if the boiler temp is like 190+.
He checked the Taco circulator controls, its a
Taco SR503 3 way switching. He didnt see a priority on/off switch.
Could not even get the cover off as its been mounted on the side of the burner directly behind the 3 circ's and there is no room to slide cover off! Maybe it was factory pre-installed on side of boiler?

He added the setup was that the hot water is primary and if it fails, the whole burner/boiler will shut down?

Not having heat OR not hot water stinks, not having both
5ucks!

Time to get take some pics and start a new thread with all the equipment and controls listed. Need to determine of its worth it to upgrade any controls or get that Beckett heat manager or equivalent.

Pete
 
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Old 01-05-09, 12:50 PM
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What is your hot water system? Indirect tank? Why would you consider having a Heat Manager installed, for what benefits? A Tekmar 260 would give you better options on the DHW, such as timed priority, and ODR.
 
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Old 01-05-09, 03:06 PM
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radioconnection... Its time for a new thread!

Originally Posted by radioconnection
What is your hot water system? Indirect tank? Why would you consider having a Heat Manager installed, for what benefits? A Tekmar 260 would give you better options on the DHW, such as timed priority, and ODR.
fropm the end of my last post...
"Time to get take some pics and start a new thread with all the equipment and controls listed. Need to determine of its worth it to upgrade any controls or get that Beckett heat manager or equivalent."


On-Demand Routing (ODR)?

If my town would allow it, Id have a Greenwood Outdoor Burner!
Loads of local wood available!

Pete
 
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Old 01-05-09, 03:24 PM
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Red face

OutDoor Reset. ODR. Check the Honeywell AQ2000 and Tekmar 260 specs.
 
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Old 01-11-09, 04:34 PM
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been busy with work...

Was away working in NYC. Been pretty cold here in Maine.
Burner has been fine since servicing,
using more oil but degree days has been higher.

Is there a site/link to get degree days by zip code?

Pete
 
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Old 01-11-09, 08:19 PM
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Pete, check out Welcome to Weather Underground : Weather Underground . If there is an airport near you, you can get pretty good data from them... look up PWS (Personal Weather Stations) ... the airports are listed with 4 letter codes. Chances are you can find a station near enough that the data is resonably accurate. You can download the data in a comma delimited file for import into a spreadsheet if yer so inclined.
 
 

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