circulator makes horrible screeching sound
#1
01-11-09, 11:36 AM
circulator makes horrible screeching sound
I heard a horrible screeching noise...ear piercing..went in and here it's from the circulator on top of the boiler. It appeared to stop when there was a call for heat and as you may know i have the delay on the circulator. Installer set it at 25 seconds. But i think it was still in a cool down cycle when the thing started screeching. I'm not sure. Will wait for another time for it to do that but I only heard it 2x and it's not reproducible..nor happening anymore.
So what would cause a circulator to whine so badly that it literally hurt your ears? almost sounded like a tea kettle..but not quite.
So what would cause a circulator to whine so badly that it literally hurt your ears? almost sounded like a tea kettle..but not quite.
#2
01-11-09, 12:04 PM
Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Manch-vegas, New Hampshire
Posts: 1,985
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes
on
0 Posts
#3
01-13-09, 08:14 AM
below is a pic, ill have to get the exact info when i get home
this morning, i heard a call for heat, then the circ turns on to purge excess heat from the boiler for 25 seconds and it's during that time that it squeeks. Then the burner fires and all is well.
this morning, i heard a call for heat, then the circ turns on to purge excess heat from the boiler for 25 seconds and it's during that time that it squeeks. Then the burner fires and all is well.
#4
01-13-09, 08:37 AM
Squealing is probably the bearings failing. They may be on their way out. Premature bearing failure in a wet-rotor circulator, I believe, is often caused by cavitation/air. Crud/rust/junk, too.
#5
01-13-09, 09:56 AM
Originally Posted by xiphias
Squealing is probably the bearings failing. They may be on their way out. Premature bearing failure in a wet-rotor circulator, I believe, is often caused by cavitation/air. Crud/rust/junk, too.
I'm sure he will be thrilled to have to replace a brand new circ so soon. I hope he cooperates and puts one in just based on my say so. the noise isnt reproducible at all...just comes and goes at random start ups.
#6
01-13-09, 12:49 PM
Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Manch-vegas, New Hampshire
Posts: 1,985
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes
on
0 Posts
What is that brass item just above the circulator?
Is this boiler power vented?
(Hard to tell in this picture)
Are you absolutely sure the noise is coming from the circulator?
You mention a 25 second pre-purge of the circ? that does not make sense to me, but it could be something I have never heard of. Are you sure it is not something on the burner that is pre-purging and making the noise
I am just throwing out a few questions to help narrow down the problem. I also would not think a new circ would do that, but I have seen some pretty strange things over the years and they are straight from the factory, so anything can happen.
Is this boiler power vented?
(Hard to tell in this picture)
Are you absolutely sure the noise is coming from the circulator?
You mention a 25 second pre-purge of the circ? that does not make sense to me, but it could be something I have never heard of. Are you sure it is not something on the burner that is pre-purging and making the noise
I am just throwing out a few questions to help narrow down the problem. I also would not think a new circ would do that, but I have seen some pretty strange things over the years and they are straight from the factory, so anything can happen.
#7
01-13-09, 04:52 PM
I think the brass is a 1 inch check valve. I had him replace another one in the system with one that goes in that circulator because it was being heard all thru the house. could the check valve be whiny and screechy?
I dont know what power vented means so i doubt i have it.
im 99% sure it's coming from that circ, i ran into the room when i heard it first time ..it's definitely in that immediate area
it's a it's a taco 007 f5 1/25 hp 3250 rpm
the 25 sec delay is a relay he put on to help stop short cycling. I have the tekmar 260 but even with that, i had instances where the thing turned on and the heat from the boiler heated up the sensor so much upon startup that it was 'fully answering' the call for heat and then shutting down as soon as it started. I havent had short cycling since it's been put in. And if the purge of the boiler satisfies the demand, the thing wont ever turn on.
I dont know what power vented means so i doubt i have it.
im 99% sure it's coming from that circ, i ran into the room when i heard it first time ..it's definitely in that immediate area
it's a it's a taco 007 f5 1/25 hp 3250 rpm
the 25 sec delay is a relay he put on to help stop short cycling. I have the tekmar 260 but even with that, i had instances where the thing turned on and the heat from the boiler heated up the sensor so much upon startup that it was 'fully answering' the call for heat and then shutting down as soon as it started. I havent had short cycling since it's been put in. And if the purge of the boiler satisfies the demand, the thing wont ever turn on.
#8
01-13-09, 05:01 PM
Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Manch-vegas, New Hampshire
Posts: 1,985
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes
on
0 Posts
I have a funny feeling it is the check valve. Heating systems use flow check valves which are quite different than what you have on there. Flow check valve open when a flow of water is sensed. Check valves typically need some kind of pressure to open them, which circulator pumps do very little of. The flow checks built into the circulator are made just for this. I wonder if what you heard before was coming from this 1" spring check valve.
I have been doing this for 25 years and have never seen a spring check on a heating system. That is not to say that there is not something new on the market that I have not gotten any knowledge of yet.
We have a few more good heat guys here that I hope will jump in and advise also.
I have been doing this for 25 years and have never seen a spring check on a heating system. That is not to say that there is not something new on the market that I have not gotten any knowledge of yet.
We have a few more good heat guys here that I hope will jump in and advise also.
#9
01-14-09, 05:09 AM
Well maybe he will replace that valve since it's cheaper/easier to do than replacing the circ 
#10
01-14-09, 06:51 AM
Having heard before the squealing sound of failing bearings in a little green Taco, my money is on the circ. In which case, replacing the valve would not solve the problem.
But of course I'm not the one listening to your circulator.
But of course I'm not the one listening to your circulator.
#12
01-14-09, 07:59 AM
Originally Posted by xiphias
Having heard before the squealing sound of failing bearings in a little green Taco, my money is on the circ. In which case, replacing the valve would not solve the problem.
But of course I'm not the one listening to your circulator.
But of course I'm not the one listening to your circulator.
Originally Posted by ZL700
And I have to ask? single circ system?
Then why a check valve to add restriction, head and probably the cause of the noise?
Then why a check valve to add restriction, head and probably the cause of the noise?
He said the check valve right at the supply was needed so the water didnt flow back...but i didnt even realize about the check valve on top of the boiler until the above post pointed it out to me.
Ill lean on him to replace the circulator or at least guarantee me he will do so in a few months if it continues.
#13
01-19-09, 05:31 AM
Originally Posted by xiphias
Having heard before the squealing sound of failing bearings in a little green Taco, my money is on the circ. In which case, replacing the valve would not solve the problem.
But of course I'm not the one listening to your circulator.
But of course I'm not the one listening to your circulator.
Unsure when he's coming back to do my nozzle but ill at least pin him down how long he will warrant that circ given that it has problems in the 1st month of operation
#14
01-19-09, 12:00 PM
UPDATE: he called me back and said there are no bearings in that circulator..that it's water cooled? or something like that..i forget..water something.
He thinks it's an air pocket that hits the circ every once in a while...said there's really no maintenance on the circulator and nothing to make a 'ball bearing' screeching noise like i described. He said because my boiler is totally above my entire heating system that air gets caught in there sometimes. In time it should come out thru the valve though i guess. But i did bleed a few baseboards and no air at all.
So do you think his explanation is reasonable?
PS: the terrible spring valve noise i heard thruout the house is gone since he changed out the check valve and put one in the other circulator, but i do hear a bit of 'water flow' in the baseboards. Maybe that's the air i'm hearing? I dont recall hearing this kind of water flow with my old system. Not saying it's good or bad, just different
He thinks it's an air pocket that hits the circ every once in a while...said there's really no maintenance on the circulator and nothing to make a 'ball bearing' screeching noise like i described. He said because my boiler is totally above my entire heating system that air gets caught in there sometimes. In time it should come out thru the valve though i guess. But i did bleed a few baseboards and no air at all.
So do you think his explanation is reasonable?
PS: the terrible spring valve noise i heard thruout the house is gone since he changed out the check valve and put one in the other circulator, but i do hear a bit of 'water flow' in the baseboards. Maybe that's the air i'm hearing? I dont recall hearing this kind of water flow with my old system. Not saying it's good or bad, just different
#15
01-19-09, 01:42 PM
Umm, well, maybe he should tell Taco that there aren't any bearings. Then they can fix all their specification sheets so that where it says "Bearings: Carbon" they can just leave a blank. Then they wouldn't even need to put bearings in their circulators anymore. Wow!
Air can cause cavitation. Cavitation can put extreme lateral stress on the impeller, which is attached to the shaft, which turns on a set of bearings. When the bearings start to go, they squeal. The shaft also starts to rub on the bushing/seal where it exits the cartridge. That too can contribute to the squeal.
Dirt and gunk can do the same thing, but these circs are rather more impervious to gunk due to their design.
They work fine for a while, but as they are subjected to suboptimal operating conditions, they can begin to exhibit things like squeals.
He could just swap out the cartridge. If the problem happens again, then there is probably a recurring cavitation problem.
Air can cause cavitation. Cavitation can put extreme lateral stress on the impeller, which is attached to the shaft, which turns on a set of bearings. When the bearings start to go, they squeal. The shaft also starts to rub on the bushing/seal where it exits the cartridge. That too can contribute to the squeal.
Dirt and gunk can do the same thing, but these circs are rather more impervious to gunk due to their design.
They work fine for a while, but as they are subjected to suboptimal operating conditions, they can begin to exhibit things like squeals.
He could just swap out the cartridge. If the problem happens again, then there is probably a recurring cavitation problem.
#16
01-19-09, 02:44 PM
how can he be so wrong about there being bearings in there? I cant believe he'd tell me an outright lie.
he did say cavitation now that you mention it. How hard is it to change out a cartridge? Still it will be awkward telling him he's wrong and there are bearings in there.
so how do i know if it's air in there or bad bearings?
he did say cavitation now that you mention it. How hard is it to change out a cartridge? Still it will be awkward telling him he's wrong and there are bearings in there.
so how do i know if it's air in there or bad bearings?
#18
01-19-09, 03:02 PM
Originally Posted by OldBoiler
Is that a check valve located above the pump in question?
Al.
Al.
#21
01-20-09, 04:57 AM
Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Manch-vegas, New Hampshire
Posts: 1,985
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by luckydriver
how can he be so wrong about there being bearings in there? I cant believe he'd tell me an outright lie.
he did say cavitation now that you mention it. How hard is it to change out a cartridge? Still it will be awkward telling him he's wrong and there are bearings in there.
so how do i know if it's air in there or bad bearings?
he did say cavitation now that you mention it. How hard is it to change out a cartridge? Still it will be awkward telling him he's wrong and there are bearings in there.
so how do i know if it's air in there or bad bearings?
I also think the spring check valve may possibly be causing the problem by holding back air above the pump. Remove the spring check valve and it should be replaced with a flow check valve made for heating systems.
If there is some other reason for the spring check valve to be there, I cannot see it from your pictures.
#22
01-20-09, 06:15 AM
Since i dont really know the purpose of either valve, i cant really say. I was told the spring valve is to prevent water from coming back thru the inlet on the supply side of that circulator so he replaced that one with a check valve he inserted into the end of that circ.
If he can do the same here, and stop the air problem, thats great. Or as you say a flow check valve. I guess i can say i was doing research on the web and saw some people had problems with spring valves and see what he thinks.
When i asked if the air would come out eventually he did say yes but from your description it sounds like this 'bad' valve may be causing the air problem.
If he can do the same here, and stop the air problem, thats great. Or as you say a flow check valve. I guess i can say i was doing research on the web and saw some people had problems with spring valves and see what he thinks.
When i asked if the air would come out eventually he did say yes but from your description it sounds like this 'bad' valve may be causing the air problem.
#23
01-21-09, 10:34 AM
crud...got home yesterday and heard this 4x! Is air in the system something that would make this more frequent over time or just no way to tell and i got 'lucky' and it just happened that often in the span of an hour?
as an aside, how many watts do these things use? I dont see it listed
http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/Fil...ry/101-029.pdf
as an aside, how many watts do these things use? I dont see it listed
http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/Fil...ry/101-029.pdf
Last edited by luckydriver; 01-21-09 at 10:55 AM.
#24
01-21-09, 11:04 AM
The problem gets worse because the conditions are suboptimal, or even if they are not anymore, you already have a wobbly shaft. Cavitation also does a number on the impeller. All those small bubbles are like little b-b's whacking at the plastic at high pressure and velocity. Can even cause the vanes to fail. But anyway, it still wobbles. It wears unevenly, etc. and squeals.
Or it's still got dirt and crud in it. Whatever.
To the aside on the power consumption of the 007. The sheet does list it.
Volts * Amps = Watts
115 * 0.71 = ~82
Basically what a largish, old-fashioned incandescent lightbulb uses.
Or it's still got dirt and crud in it. Whatever.
To the aside on the power consumption of the 007. The sheet does list it.
Volts * Amps = Watts
115 * 0.71 = ~82
Basically what a largish, old-fashioned incandescent lightbulb uses.
#25
01-21-09, 12:00 PM
ok sounds like i should demand a cartridge replacement just to shut me (and it) up
Oh and can you tell i have no clue about electrical formulas?
Oh and can you tell i have no clue about electrical formulas?
