One radiator cold even after bleeding!

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  #1  
Old 01-16-09, 02:11 PM
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Unhappy One radiator cold even after bleeding!

Hello, I have a hot water heating system. My radiators look like this: http://www.tunstallonline.com/graphics%5Cconvector.jpg



The boiler is in the basement (there are no radiators down in the basement). All the radiators are on the main floor except for one in the loft/top floor. That one is always cold. I have bled it and bled it, many times air comes out (but not always) then really cold water which progressively gets warmer then hot. When I stop the bleeding the radiator will be warm but will immediately get cold again.

I've had the boiler repair man look at it three times and he says there is air in it and that is why it stays cold. But I keep bleeding it and it never stays hot.

During this time there was other service work done on the boiler so the system was drained a couple of times, each time I go around and bleed the radiators and they all work but the upstairs one never does (except immediately after bleeding).

Thre is another radiator in the main floor bathroom that i have to bleed about 5-6 times a day, but that one will at least stay hot for a while before an air bubble comes again.

Is there anything I can do about this problem?

I am going to buy a new boiler in the spring. I also want to know will the new boiler fix this problem. It has been occurring for two winters and heating the room with space heaters is very expensive.

Thanks in advance.
 
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Old 01-16-09, 03:45 PM
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If you have to bleed any radiator several times a day something is either allowing air into the heating system or the system pressure may be too low and the circulator is cavitating, what does the pressure gauge read. Is it possible for you to past pics of your boiler and piping ?
 
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Old 01-16-09, 05:07 PM
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I'm betting that these are also piped on what is known as a 'diverter tee' system, where special tee fittings are used to divert some flow to each radiator.

Are both the supply and return pipes on these convector cabinets coming from the same pipe?

Ditto what lightsout said about the pressure...

I also want to know will the new boiler fix this problem.
No, probably not, unless there is some defect in the system that is also corrected at the time of the new boiler install. In other words, a new boiler by itself will not fix it... but other changes that are made in the process of installing that boiler might.
 
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Old 01-19-09, 11:20 AM
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Hi Lightsout and NJ, thanks for the replies. I hope the photos will answer most of your questions becuase I really know very very little about my heating system.

I thought about air coming in because I have to bleed the radiator in the bathroom all the time, and that bathroom radiator is on the wall adjacent to my bedroom, I can lay in bed and hear air bubbles glubbing in the pipe in there. And my upstairs radiator only gets hot while I am actually in the process of bleeding it. As soon as I go downstairs to empty my pail of water, when I come back up it has already started to get cold again.

I asked the furnace repair man if air could be getting in somehow, he said no.

Here is the whole system:
[IMG]http://i44.************/2u6g3mw.jpg[/IMG]

The pressure gauge:
[IMG]http://i43.************/2luexsi.jpg[/IMG]
Sometimes it says 20 but usually looks like in the pic (around 18 or so). A year ago it said 30 all the time, at that time the boiler was leaking (out of the white plastic overflow pipe) and I had the furnace guy in to fix it (Nov 2007) and the pressure went down to 19-20 where it stayed ever since. The furnace man said it should not go above 20-22. When he fixed it the radiator upstairs was not working even before that.

This photo shows the part I had replaced in October 2008. I believe he said it is an impellor. My old one was leaking (notice the brown stains on the water heater.
[IMG]http://i43.************/i52lb7.jpg[/IMG]

I hope those photos help. Let me know if you need any different pictures. Thanks again for the help.

EDIT: it is not letting me post the pictures for some reason. they are hosted in tinypic if you want to replace the stars with the correct website name.
 
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Old 01-19-09, 03:05 PM
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Don't use tinypic... I understand that the webmasters have some reason for blocking it, and they know best.

Set up a free account at Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket and post the pics there.

Tell me the HEIGHT of the system, from the bottom of the boiler in the basement, to the tippy top of the highest radiator up in the loft.

Then, tell me what the pressure in the boiler is when the boiler is COLD. (the closer to room temp, the better)
 
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Old 01-19-09, 06:41 PM
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Could I use imageshack?

The height of the system from the basement floor (the boiler is on the floor) to the pipe that runs through the top floor radiator is about 218 inches or 18 feet and 2 inches. If you wanted to the top of the radiator enclosure and not the pipe, then it's 20 feet 2 inches.

The pressure always reads 18-20. Is this what you meant or do I need to turn the boiler off and wait for it to cool down to get a good reading?

Sorry to ask such beginner questions but I want to be accurate as possible; I'd love to know what is going on and (as a woman homeowner) like to be armed with a little more knowledge when talking with the boiler man.
 
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Old 01-19-09, 08:20 PM
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I think imageshack is OK ... at least I haven't heard that it isn't! Give it a shot... photobucket is free ... I think imageshack doesn't let viewers see full size pics though, while I know that photobucket does.

A pressure when system is HOT of 18-20 PSI is OK... when the system is COLD though, you at some point want to make sure that you have at least 13 PSI ... this is in order to have pressure in the highest point of your system.

(more info than you want section)

In order to get water to 20' high, you need 0.433 PSI/FT PLUS a few PSI extra 'headroom', or 8.66 PSI + 4 PSI = 12.66 PSI ... and we'll call that 13 .

What I thought at first was that you might not have enough pressure in the system to get the water to that height... this would cause the problem you are seeing... but obviously you do have enough pressure... so I dunno...

If you want to be sure, turn off the system and allow it to cool to 100 or less, and read the pressure then...

It's always possible that the pressure gauge is defective and you only _think_ you have enough... but then, you wouldn't get a stream of water out the bleeder if you didn't ...

No problem on the questions! That's what we're here for...

...waiting to see the pics...
 
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Old 01-20-09, 07:11 AM
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Edit: click on the photos to see the full size photo.

boiler


Pressure Gauge


New part that was installed in the fall (old one leaked)


I have been in this house for 4 years. I didn't really use the upstairs room but to my knowledge the heat up there was fine the first 2 years. Plus I could have my house as warm as I wanted. The past two years the upstairs heat didn't work and the bathroom radiator always gets air, and now my house goes down to about 61F when it is very cold out (-5 F) even with the heat cranked all the way up. I have had maintenance done to the boiler (expansion tank drained etc) and the technician at that time noticed the pressure was too high (30) but the boiler maintenance and reducing the pressure to 20 didn't fix the problem.

The boiler tech swears it is because there is air in the system (we did drain the system last year and this year for some of the work he had to do but we then went around and bled the air out of all the radiators, plus the problem existed before that) - really not sure.

At one point I decided I must have bled the upstairs radiator so much that I had replaced all the water in the whole system.

I'll shut off the heat tonight and let the boiler get cool and see what the pressure reads.

Thanks for your help I really appreciate it.
 
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Old 01-20-09, 02:54 PM
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ImageShack works great!

I too have to agree that there's still air in the system.

Where it's coming from, and why you can't get it bled out is the mystery. Some of that mystery may be solved when you cool the boiler and take a pressure reading.

What type of bleeders are on the convector cabinets? Are they the automatic type that look like a brass can? or the manual coin or key type?

Have you tried bleeding when the pump is 'resting' and then again when the pump is running?

I had asked this question before...

Are both the supply and return pipes on these convector cabinets coming from the same pipe?
You may not be able to see all of the connections if they are hidden inside walls and floors, but look around and see if you can determine this. If this is a DIVERTER TEE type of system, they can be a real bear to get all the air out of.

So, try to describe how the system is piped to the radiators... there is a trick or two that might help bleed if it is indeed a diverter tee system. (or take some pics of the piping to the rads... )

Oh, one more thing... my latest mantra is ANSE (Assume Nothing, Suspect Everything)... and regulars here will know that I ALWAYS suspect the accuracy of the gauge! But as I said, if you get a steady stream of water from the highest bleeder, you _should_ have enough pressure... but I wonder about when the system is COLD? ... so, when you cool the system, and the pressure is at it's lowest, go up to the top rad and crack the bleeder open and see if you STILL get a steady stream...
 
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Old 01-20-09, 08:21 PM
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Glad imageshack is working! I just had to tweak their image code a teensy bit.

Okay here are the 3 kinds of bleeders that I have.

1 - this is the one in my bathroom. You use a screwdriver on the end to open the tap.


2 - this kind you have to remove the cover, put a screwdriver on the top of the valve and water comes out of 4 holes (this is the dumbest design ever because it is impossible to bleed without getting water everywhere)


3 - my personal favourite: the kind with a lovely tap that you just twist and water comes out:


Those are all on the main floor. The upstairs one had one of those "self bleeding" valves that looked like a brass can, where you had to remove a little cap and stick your finger on a pin to manually bleed the air. I was spending 20 minutes every day crouched over that darn thing and it made me grumpy, so I had the boiler guy over to install one of the taps. You can see it below and also how the pipes are arranged, the pipe comes out of the wall on the one side, runs through 3 smaller pipes with the fins on them, then goes into the wall on the other side:


The only place I can see the pipes is in the boiler room. I can phone my boiler man tomorrow and see if he knows what kind of system it is (diverter tee or other).

Here is another photo of the system, showing more of the pipes, in case it helps.



I have been reading what other people have been saying about zones. Is it possible my upstairs room is its own "zone" and that the zone is turned off? Would that cause the water to be cold in the pipe but run warm if I bleed long enough?

Tomorrow night I'll shut the system off right after i get home from work, so I can get a good pressure reading.

Edit: missed the question about the pump running. The answer is yes I tried both, but not on purpose (I would just bleed every day when I had time, regardless of whether the pump was on), but the boiler man said I should bleed it when the system is running. I do not recall if one situation caused a difference in the amount of air that came out. I can try it - should I be paying attention to how much air comes out?

P.S another dumb question - is the pump the red motor on the back?
 
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Old 01-21-09, 02:45 PM
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The only place I can see the pipes is in the boiler room.
I see the problem... a big red UFO has landed on your boiler pipes! That thing pre-dates me I think... not sure what the heck that is? Anyone else know? Mark? rbeck? furd? Grady?

The big pipe that comes off the top of the boiler, with the two black boxes on it... can you follow that one with the camera? Are any of the ground floor radiators piped to that? or does it turn and disappear into the structure? If any of the lower rads hook to that, can you take close pics of the TEE fittings that they connect with?

Is it possible my upstairs room is its own "zone" and that the zone is turned off? Would that cause the water to be cold in the pipe but run warm if I bleed long enough?
I don't see any evidence that your system is zoned. How many thermostats are in the home? Just one? If so, there are no separate zones. If you had zones, there would be a thermostat in each one.

I suppose it's possible that there is a closed valve somewhere... but I'm thinking that no, that's not the problem. I'm sticking with the air problem.

The water gets warm because when you open the bleeder, the warm water is traveling up to take the place of the cold that you are letting out.

should I be paying attention to how much air comes out?
No, not really... but if you continue to bleed after no more air is coming out and you are getting only water, it's pointless... if yer not getting air out, why bleed?

Depending on the location of the bleeders, some will work better when the system is not running, others when it is running. The ones that work best not running are at points where the piping reaches a 'high point' ... because that's where the air will collect after the system is rested and the air floats to the top. The ones that work best when running are located at the 'downstream' ends of any radiators or pipes just before they turn downward to go back into the floor or wall. Water will easily be pushed horizontally when the pump is running, but will NOT want to go DOWN... so it will collect there and block the flow. Ever see a bubble go DOWNWARD in a container of water? No, didn't think so! Practice some Zen and 'become the air' and you can see where you would collect.

Is there ANY place that you can see the piping other than in the basement, and at the radiators? Is it possible that there are any pipes in a closet somewhere? and perhaps a hidden bleeder?

is the pump the red motor on the back?
Yes it is.
 
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Old 01-21-09, 03:10 PM
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By the way, I'm not sure if I mentioned this before or not... and if yer not getting any hot water into the radiator, it's not going to make a difference anyway... but:

The amount of dust that's collected in between the fins of those rads is sufficient to seriously degrade the amount of heat you will get out of them. It is a major PITA to get that out... a vacuum cleaner will only get the first 1/2" or so... you need to find some kind of brush that will get down in between the fins and push the dust out. I have used 'wallpaper brushes' in the past, and if you cut them into 2-3" wide sections, they work OK, you might have to thin out the bristles a bit... but use your imagination and try to find a way to get them as clean as possible. Once they are cleaned out, a yearly vacuuming of the BOTTOM will usually maintain them so you don't have to go to the trouble again...

What works the best is messy... compressed air... but most ppl don't have an air compressor laying around... you blast the dust out and leave the vacuum running to immediately try and catch as much of it as you can...

I have several of those convector cabinets in my home... I spent HOURS on EACH ONE! The previous owners had several furry critters that shared their home with them... they were PACKED with dust!

So once we get this solved and get the hot water running through them, if they are cleaned out you will get a LOT more heat from them... boiler won't work as hard, you will save some fuel.

P.S. off topic... you can save some electricity use on your 'fridge by performing the same cleaning of the coils on the back and underneath... but talk about a neckache! Laying on your side with a flashlight, a brush, and a vacuum is NO FUN! but worth the trouble.
 
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Old 01-21-09, 09:07 PM
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OK I turned my thermostat way off when I got home and kept it off for 3.5 hours today. The boiler was cool to the touch and the pipes leading to/from it were warm (usually they are very hot). I do not trust the thermometer that comes out the top of the boiler but it said 40 (right now it says 147, system has been on almost 2 hours) - pressure gauge when cold said:


Originally Posted by NJ Trooper View Post
I see the problem... a big red UFO has landed on your boiler pipes! That thing pre-dates me I think... not sure what the heck that is? Anyone else know? Mark? rbeck? furd? Grady?
Oooh! I know I know!! Pick me!!! It's a thing that reduces the PSI of the city water so the boiler doesn't get blasted out of the room!! The boiler guy told me it's very old but it doesn't leak and is expensive to replace so he told me I didn't need to replace it when I replace the boiler.

Originally Posted by NJ Trooper View Post
The big pipe that comes off the top of the boiler, with the two black boxes on it... can you follow that one with the camera? Are any of the ground floor radiators piped to that? or does it turn and disappear into the structure? If any of the lower rads hook to that, can you take close pics of the TEE fittings that they connect with?
Unfortunately the rest of the basement is finished. That pipe goes out over the door of the boiler room and is covered by ceiling. but I DID find THIS:




Closeup:


Hope that helps!

Originally Posted by NJ Trooper
I don't see any evidence that your system is zoned. How many thermostats are in the home? Just one? If so, there are no separate zones. If you had zones, there would be a thermostat in each one.
No - there's only one thermostat.

Originally Posted by NJ Trooper
I suppose it's possible that there is a closed valve somewhere... but I'm thinking that no, that's not the problem. I'm sticking with the air problem.
So you are in agreement with my boiler guy.

Originally Posted by NJ Trooper
The water gets warm because when you open the bleeder, the warm water is traveling up to take the place of the cold that you are letting out.
Just what I thought - and what I suspected was happening when the thing would cool immediately when I stop bleeding. The question is why....

Originally Posted by NJ Trooper
No, not really... but if you continue to bleed after no more air is coming out and you are getting only water, it's pointless... if yer not getting air out, why bleed?
Well i was doing it until the radiator got warm. I generally do get some air... then a lot of water.. then another air bubble... then a lot more water... then a bubble.... then alot more water etc. I would stay up there 20-30 minutes sometimes, until I got too chilled (or the hot water burned my fingers). Like in my bathroom only the bathroom will stay warm between bleeds....

Originally Posted by NJ Trooper
Depending on the location of the bleeders, some will work better when the system is not running, others when it is running. The ones that work best not running are at points where the piping reaches a 'high point' ... because that's where the air will collect after the system is rested and the air floats to the top. The ones that work best when running are located at the 'downstream' ends of any radiators or pipes just before they turn downward to go back into the floor or wall. Water will easily be pushed horizontally when the pump is running, but will NOT want to go DOWN... so it will collect there and block the flow. Ever see a bubble go DOWNWARD in a container of water? No, didn't think so! Practice some Zen and 'become the air' and you can see where you would collect.
another question - how do I know which is the upstream and which is the downstream end?

And I didn't know that about the dust - I do have lots of pets - but never really took the covers off before this year. I am a computer tech so I actually do have compressed air, little dust brushes, and a good vacuum. I promise to do this when I get my air problem figured out!!!! Anything to make the boiler more efficient!

Thanks for all your help so far!! Hope my photos and answers have helped.

Edit: dunno if this is important so I thought I'd better post it. That picture I posted of the pump, with the replacement part (impellor I think) has always been quite loud (grindy loud old motor noises). Ever since the impellor was replaced it sometimes intermittently squeals. The boiler tech says the bearings are being noisy. I'm looking forward to replacing it all when I get a new boiler (peace and quiet!). Could air be getting in there somehow?
 
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Old 01-22-09, 03:07 PM
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GREAT! Those pics tell me the answer... the kitchen rad is on diverter tees... chances are that they all are... and one or both of those tees will have some indication of flow direction on them, an arrow, a metal plate, a red ring, _something_ ... all I could see in the close up was "Mueller"... and that might be a standard tee... as I said, one or both... check closely on both sides of both to see if there is any indication of flow direction... when there is only ONE diverter tee on a rad, it's _usually_ the 'downstream' side, and that should be the side that the air vent is on.

how do I know which is the upstream and which is the downstream end?
Chances are as above, that the air bleeds are on the downstream end. There is probably a valve on the upstream end? (yer sure it's OPEN if there is?... I know, dumb question, but I gotta ask...)

Assuming for the time being that your pressure gauge is accurate... (it's obvious that your temp gauge is NOT! 40)... the fact that your pressure doesn't vary more than say 5 PSI from cold to hot is very good... your tech sounds like he is pretty much on the ball, and has probably drained your expansion tank. This is IF the pressure gauge is accurate! So far, so good.

Could air be getting in there [at the pump] somehow?
I doubt it... I don't think all the air ever got OUT after the pump parts were replaced. And it's all because it's a diverter tee system... and partially because of the way the dean men built systems 'back in the day'. It was general practice to install the circulator pumps on the RETURN side of the boiler (as yours is), and they didn't know about 'pumping away'...

Warning: more techie nonsense follows! but bear with me cuz I will eventually get to the point.

In your system, you have a STATIC pressure, which is what your gauge reads. You also have a DYNAMIC pressure which is created by the pump running. This dynamic pressure exists as a differential ACROSS the pump. On the suction side the pressure is LOWER than on the discharge side.

Your expansion tank connection to the system is known as the 'PONPC' (Point Of No Pressure Change).

When the pump is pumping TOWARD that PONPC, the DIFFERENTIAL pressure that the pump introduces to the system is SUBTRACTED from the system, because the discharge side is at (or near) the PONPC.

When the pump is pumping AWAY from the PONPC, that DIFFERENTIAL pressure is ADDED to the system pressure.

When the pressure is HIGHER in a system, it is generally EASIER to remove air... so, you can perhaps see the advantage to the pump being on the SUPPLY side, pumping AWAY from the tank.

OK, my points... when the NEW system is installed, INSIST that the techs UNDERSTAND THIS! and that they install your system with the new expansion tank and air separator device on the SUCTION side of the pump!

AIR SEPARATOR: You currently DO NOT have one on your system. Any air that is circulating in your system MUST be directed into your expansion tank, WHERE IT BELONGS! The way the dead men installed yours, they said their prayers that it would go back there... but sad to say, their prayers were probably not answered. There's a very small chance that any air bubbles in the flow would find their way up that pipe to the tank, rather than merrily floating along the stream with the water.

Your new system MUST have a proper AIR SEPARATOR installed.

Since you are replacing, I'm not recommending this be done, but it would be possible for an air separator to be installed on that big pipe off the top of the boiler, in the horizontal section. It would also be possible to mount the circulator up there, but techs don't like standing on ladders to change pumps... but it COULD be done...

Lastly... (whew!)... since I have no idea how that UFO works, I can't tell you HOW to do this, but I believe that if you were able to TEMPORARILY increase your system pressure to 27 PSI and THEN bleed the radiators, you _might_ be successful in removing the trapped air. With more pressure in the system, the trapped air bubbles will become SMALLER, and the flow will be FASTER, and probably bustem loose. This is one of the 'tricks' I mentioned earlier. Perhaps your tech would know how to temporarily increase the pressure? or maybe someone else who knows how that UFO works... can't ask the dead men...

Enough for now... didja fall asleep yet?
 
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Old 01-23-09, 08:18 AM
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Smile

LOL. Now I know how people must feel when I try to explain why their computer isn't working.

From what I understand, the old way of doing things wasn't the best way, and now I have perpetual air in my system that is going to be a bugger to get out, just because of the way it was built. I can try, but likely it will be very hard to get all the air out.

Well that answers my question... my boiler tech just keeps saying "there's air in it, just keep bleeding" but now at least I know why, and even better, trust that he is saying the correct thing and is not BS-ing me (not that I thought he was, but I hate just having to take people's word for things without understanding the why).

Now... when I get my new boiler I assume the system will be drained again. With this new air separator will that take care of my air problem? (So I can just stop worrying about it for now, and leave the upstairs cold, since it will be fixed when I get the new system?)

Originally Posted by NJ Trooper
Chances are as above, that the air bleeds are on the downstream end. There is probably a valve on the upstream end? (yer sure it's OPEN if there is?... I know, dumb question, but I gotta ask...)
When I bleed the ice cold radiator, the warmth definitely starts on the right and the bleeder is on the left. I can feel the warm water come through the pipes in the radiator toward the bleeder. This makes me assume the bleeds are on the downstream side. I just assumed the valve (if any) was open since water was coming out of it.... I am going to try and get a photo to see if there is indeed a valve up there?? However... the fact that air usually comes out... it's probably not that.

Thanks again
 
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Old 01-23-09, 02:41 PM
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Not really that it wasn't "the best way"... it probably WAS the best way, back in the day... and they did have their reasons for doing what they did. Of course, in lots of cases, they didn't. A lot has been lernt in the past few decades!

I would ask your tech if he knows how to temporarily increase the pressure on the water feeder because I feel that if you do that, you will meet with some success... in fact, if that thingy has an adjustment on it, it would probably help a bit to increase the pressure permanently, say 5 PSI more, until the new system is in place. There HAS to be an adjustment on it, I'm sure of that.

If he tells you click START, then click SETTINGS, then click CONTROL PANEL, you got the wrong number...

And seriously, pay attention to what I wrote about insisting that the new system be piped to PUMP AWAY... they're gonna look at you like you have two heads, I guarantee... they won't have a clue what you are talking about... continuing education seems to be almost non-existent in the industry... (my apologies in advance to any techs reading this: but sometimes I wonder if PRIMARY EDUCATION exists in the industry!) ...and trust me, it will probably solve your air problem, permanently!
 
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