Wiring Boiler Controls


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Old 02-08-09, 08:18 AM
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Question Wiring Boiler Controls

I am hopeing someone can assist:

I have a thermolec electric boiler TH600-M the high voltage is not a problem.

I have a 2500 sq foot home with six zones. Two sets of three zones are each tied into a Taco ZVC403 Zone Valve Controls.

I have two Manifold Circulating Pumps (Grudfos)- Each running three zones.

I have an outdoor sensor.

The actuators are 24v with end switch four wire (2 red and 2 yelloow)

I am hoping someone can assist with tieing all of these peices together.

Each zone has its own thermostat with a 18/4 wire.
 
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Old 02-08-09, 08:58 AM
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Two manifolds with three zone valves each... and a pump for each manifold, correct?

Wouldn't the first diagram be what you want to use?

http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/Fil...ry/102-089.pdf
 
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Old 02-08-09, 09:02 AM
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If I am understanding the question...

There are two manifolds (circulating pumps)- each one will have a zone valve control attached to it. Each zone valve control Taco ZVC403 has three zones attached to it.

Thank you for your assistance.
 
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Old 02-08-09, 09:03 AM
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Right, and there's a pump for each manifold?
 
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Old 02-08-09, 09:05 AM
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Hang on... I'm gettin' confused...

You have how many zone valves?
 
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Old 02-08-09, 09:07 AM
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I have an outdoor sensor.
Not sure what you mean by this either... the sensor all by itself won't help unless you have a control to connect it to...
 
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Old 02-08-09, 09:08 AM
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are the zone valves the pipes with the actuators on them?
 
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Old 02-08-09, 09:15 AM
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The zone valves are the things with the actuators with the red and yellow wires ... and I'm assuming those are Honeywell?

Let's start over:

How many zone valves do you have? What brand?

How many ZVC panels do you have?

Do you have a control to connect the outdoor sensor to? What control?

You have two pumps, and I'm assuming that there is one pump each feeding one manifold with three zone valves on it?
 
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Old 02-08-09, 09:23 AM
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More detail

I have two sets of pipes coming from the infloor tubing - one is in the Master Bedroom Closet and the other is in the Boiler Room. The one in the Master Bedroom as a total of five loops; therefore five actuators. Two loops in the MB and one in the MB Closet creating zone 1. One loop in the Master Bath creating zone 2, one loop in the office creating zone 3. These wires are two red and two yellow from the actuator and extended to the boiler room with t-stat wire. In the Boiler room we have the same set up for the other side of the house zones, 4,5, and 6. From each of these three zones we have to install a Zonve Valve control - not sure which wires and from what go where. I have several diagrams. There are two circulating pumps that my plumber has written manifold on. One is for the three zones in the Master Bedroom Closet and the other is for the remaining three zones. Hope this helps.
 
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Old 02-08-09, 09:34 AM
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I have eight zone valves in the boiler room 4 loops for one tstat - two on each of the remaining t-stats on that side. Not sure what brand nothing is in Engish. They do say A 4024F N on them.

Master bedroom side defined earlier.

I have two Zone Valve Controls.

I do not know which control to conect the outdoor sensor to. The boiler has a spot for this.

Thanks for your assistance.
 
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Old 02-08-09, 09:48 AM
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Pictures would probably help...

OK, there are two manifold pairs, correct?

A SUPPLY and a RETURN manifold in the bedroom closet, correct?

A SUPPLY and a RETURN manifold in the boiler room, correct?

At each manifold pair, there are three zone valves, correct?

You have TWO ZVC 403 panels, correct?

Do you, or do you not have an additional control to which the outdoor sensor will connect?

There are TWO pumps, one that feeds the manifold in the closet, and one that feeds the manifold in the boiler room, correct?
 
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Old 02-08-09, 09:50 AM
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Break out that camera... take many pictures... set up a free account at Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket and upload the pictures there. Come back here and provide a link to the pictures.

I'm unable to visualize what you have by the descriptions.
 
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Old 02-08-09, 10:03 AM
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Pictures

So far I think you are following - I have no control for the outdoor sensor that I am aware of. Nothing in the box other then item marked outdoor sensor - photos are on the way.
 
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Old 02-08-09, 10:37 AM
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Yes, the outdoor sensor connects to the proper terminals on the boiler control. Your boiler has a built-in outdoor reset controller.

What happened that you are finishing this job? Installer skipped town? Shouldn't he have finished what he started?
 
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Old 02-08-09, 10:41 AM
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Pictures

If I have done everything correctly - here is the link to the photos.

Pictures by neruam - Photobucket
 
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Old 02-08-09, 10:44 AM
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I was the electrician for the project - I had someone assisting with stuff above my head - but I cannot get in touch with them and have been trying for three weeks. I cannot afford to hire someone new - I am trying to get the water heat working so my forced air gas bill will go down. It is cold here in WI.
 
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Old 02-08-09, 10:52 AM
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Outdoor Sensor

The outdoor sensor has to leads from it and they will wire into the OT and OT slots on the Boiler Panel. Does this get placed on the outside of the house and extension control wires attached and ran back to the Boiler Panel?
 
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Old 02-08-09, 11:23 AM
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Yes, that's why it's called an 'outdoor' sensor!

It should be placed in a location that does not get baked by the sun, preferably on the north side of the home... there should be directions for placing the sensor in the boiler manual.
 
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Old 02-08-09, 11:40 AM
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One down - Yeah!! Now if someone had just told be that before everything else was done - it would save on going into the attic and fishing a wire - YUCK!
 
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Old 02-08-09, 12:06 PM
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Yep, the pictures worked fine... and it looks like a pretty nice install so far.

One thing though, I'm not familiar with those zone valves so I'll need to do some research on them ...

It appears that you will have to parallel some of those valves on one thermostat... I'm assuming that you want both B/R circuits to activate at the same time... controlled from one thermostat... not sure if you can do that with your panel or not...

I don't have any time the rest of today to look at this, I'll get back later on and check it out...
 
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Old 02-08-09, 12:21 PM
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That is my understanding is that the actuators will have to be tied together three zones or loops in the Master Bedroom all controlled by one Thermostat. The other two in the Master Bedroom Closet only have one loop. Then in the Boiler room I need to tie together four actuators for one zone and two actuatros for the other two zones.

Thanks for the assistance. I will check back later.
 
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Old 02-08-09, 05:08 PM
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Did the installer leave you with any literature on the equipment?
Shame on him if he didn't... shame on you if you threw it out!

Would you look and see if you have a paper on those zone valve actuators that tells how many VA or how much current? and also if the YELLOW leads are the motor leads and the RED leads are the endswitches?

Take a close look at them for any manufacturer information also... they are probably ROTH as are the manifolds but the pics don't show the name.
 
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Old 02-09-09, 07:18 AM
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I have added some scans of literature to my photo album. This is what I have and how I have installed the thermostats. I also have them in a pdf - but not sure how to upload those. I also have the zone valve control electrical diagram - you provided a link to this one. And I have the boiler diagram - where to install the outdoor sensor. The pics are not that great so I will try and tell you what the paper says.

Actuator Page 2

A 4024F N
Actuator 24 V with end switch
(4-wire)

Then it gives the sizes around the diagrams.

Yellow Yellow - operating voltage 24V AC
Red Red - End switch

For 24V: Actuator has to be powerd by a 24V safety transformer according to class II FCC-quality proofed (NOrth America).

Technical Specifications:
Operating Voltage: 24 V AC/DC, 0-60Hz
Operating Capacity: 1,8W
Making Current: max. 250 mA for max 2 min.

End Switch:
Switching Current: 230 C AC: 5A (1 A)
24 V DC: 3 A (1 A)
Protection class: II
Type of Protection: IP 54
Ambient Temperature: 0 degrees C ... 60 degrees C
Storage Temperatrue: -25 dgrees C ... 65 degrees C

Hope that helps. Thank you.
 
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Old 02-09-09, 04:01 PM
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I'm a little concerned about something...

The transformer in the Taco panel is sized to provide roughly enough current for only ONE zone valve on each set of terminals... so if you go connecting 8 zone actuators to a panel that is designed for 3, you will likely overload and possibly burn out the transformer if it ever happens that all the actuators turn on at the same time. It may never happen that all the zones call at once... but it COULD. And it will happen when it is the COLDEST outside... just when you least want problems with the heating system.

I believe the transformer in those panels is rated for 40 VA, and looking at the specs you posted for the valves it appears that they may draw 6 VA. So you can probably safely use 5, maybe 6 actuators on one panel... (you do want some safety margin... 40 / 6 = 6.666 ... )

Poking around on the web, I found that Roth also sells a transformer, which I believe is also 40 VA ... and as I recall it said a max of 5 valves per transformer...

I also have not checked yet whether the relays in the Taco panel will be able to run 3 valves on 1 relay... I believe they will, but haven't checked that out yet.

Would have much rather seen a larger panel installed, and instead of putting the multiple valves on the output, connecting the thermostat to multiple INPUTS... in other words, one thermostat firing more than one channel in the Taco...

Going to look at your new additions now.
 
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Old 02-09-09, 04:18 PM
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In my previous post, never mind what I said about the relays being able to handle the multiple valves... I was thinking about a different panel...

But, using your kitchen as an example, there are FOUR valve that need to be operated at the same time... I'm not sure that the thermostat itself can handle the current from four valves...

this is problematic.
 
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Old 02-09-09, 07:22 PM
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Smile

What is the worst thing that would happen? The thermostat would blow up? The plumber has been doing this for over 25 years. I would like to think that his design would work with items that were left for me to finish.

I have just never done any control wiring - just high voltage. I ended up running 18/5 form the thermostats as it was what was in stock. I have five wires running to the boiler room for each of the six t-stats. Not sure where to connect them. I then have the two red and two yellow wires, which will have to be paralelled for each of the zones and then to where??

The high voltage on the boiler is not an issue. I am a little concerened about the circulating pumps as I am not sure where the feed for them comes from. According to the boiler diagram these feeds would come from the boiler - just have to locate from where.

Any further information that you can provide would be greatly appreciated.
 
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Old 02-09-09, 08:46 PM
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What is the worst thing that would happen? The thermostat would blow up? The plumber has been doing this for over 25 years. I would like to think that his design would work with items that were left for me to finish.
Could fry the thermostat, could fry the transformer, could burn down your house. You don't want to run 8 zone valve on a 40 VA transformer.

I don't think he's been doing it like this for 25 years... PEX tubing wasn't even being used for heat back then. Roth wasn't marketing radiant manifolds then. I don't think Taco had these panels out back then...

I would like to think so too... but I can't advise you to connect eight zone valves to a 3 valve panel... it ain't right, and if it ain't right, I ain't gonna advise it. sorry...

I suspect this is why he and the other guys skipped town and aren't returning your calls... they either don't wanna admit the mistake, or don't want to do the job with the equipment at hand.
 
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Old 02-09-09, 08:50 PM
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Each circulator would come from each ZVC panel. Look at the wiring diagram for the 403 panel... you see down in the lower left, there is a relay contact? that runs the pumps... you won't wire the pump to the boiler...
 
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Old 02-09-09, 09:01 PM
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Yes - I see the dry contacts for the optional circulator. This is where the pump electric will be triggered. Got that. This is where some of the confusion came in as this would bring the low volatage power to the pump - but is calls for 115v. Unlsess this dry contacts is somehow not fed by the board transformer. I will check on how many acutuators can be ran on my thermostats. I tried to check online, but my model number is not listed so I will have to call a rep tomorrow.
 

Last edited by neeruam; 02-09-09 at 09:18 PM.
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Old 02-09-09, 09:04 PM
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I can change where some of the zones are ran - What would you recomend would be the max actuators on these ZVC's?
 
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Old 02-09-09, 09:17 PM
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I think I said 5 previously? a 40 VA transformer (IF that's what's in the 403 panel) can maybe do a MAX of 5 ...

Your worst case is the kitchen... four actuators... and I'm willing to bet that the thermostat won't last long switching four...

also, the fuse in the 403 panel is not likely going to stay a fuse for long...

With some 'creative' wiring, you might be able to use an external transformer to power some of the zone valves actuators. You would have to power ONE valve from the 403 panel, and then use the endswitch on THAT valve to power the NEXT valve with another transformer, etc, etc, ... but yer gonna end up with a rat's nest of wiring that nobody is ever gonna be able to figure out in the future...

Another option would be to power a RELAY from the 403 panel, and use that relay to power the valves with another transformer...

you have options, none of them pretty, or simple.
 
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Old 02-09-09, 09:23 PM
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By the way, wiring the 403 panel is pretty straight forward... the thermostats hook up to the thermostat inputs, and the zone valves hook up to the zone valve outputs... the only problem there is the number of them to hook up... and whether or not the panel/transformer/thermostat would survive the trip...

The ENDSWITCHes on the 403 panel will be wired in parallel and to the boiler ... they connect to the boiler thermostat input ...

It doesn't look to me as if you left a long enough 'tail' on those thermostat wires... have you got a wire stretcher handy?
 
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Old 02-09-09, 09:23 PM
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I think for now I will omit some of the zones in the rooms that are not being used. Such as only hooking up two of the loops in the kitchen and my daughters/bed bath - I think that would make two zones with four actuators. On the other side I will omit one from the Master Bedroom making three zones with four actuators. I will just have to keep the forced air furnace on for now. Could you assist with this?
 
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Old 02-09-09, 09:27 PM
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But I have four wires coming in from each thermostat and only two slots on the panel - I am guessing that I hook up the C and W - does it matter which slot they go into? The actuators would have yellow going into one and two and the red (end switch) into three and four. Then I tie the two end switches from the panels together and run to the boiler thermostat.
 
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Old 02-09-09, 09:42 PM
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Thank you for all of your assistance. I will let you know what I find out tomorrow. And there is more wire in the wall.
 
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Old 02-09-09, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by neeruam View Post
But I have four wires coming in from each thermostat and only two slots on the panel - I am guessing that I hook up the C and W - does it matter which slot they go into? The actuators would have yellow going into one and two and the red (end switch) into three and four. Then I tie the two end switches from the panels together and run to the boiler thermostat.
FOUR wires? Heat only? I guess I need to look at those shots of the paperwork again... I thought three?

No, I don't think it's the C and W ... I think the R and W ... yes, it might matter which one... if you use the C wire, which is probably optional... if you don't hook the C, the t'stat will run on it's internal batteries... the C wires would have to go to 24VAC COMMON on the 403 panel... will look tomorrow...

Yes on the actuators, yes on the endswitches...

I've come up with a way to use an external transformer to power some of the valves... I'll clean up the drawing in the next day or two ... can't explain it in words... but it's really not that complicated... for example, the four kitchen actuators, you would wire the yellows from the first one to the 403 ... then, the endswitch of the first to the motor of the second, the endswitch of the second to the motor of the third, the endswitch of the third to the motor of the fourth... the endswitch of the fourth to the 403 panel ... so each actuator would turn on the next, and use the power from the external transformer... until the fourth one was open which would tell the panel that the valves were all open... I'll post up a pic ...
 
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Old 02-10-09, 06:34 AM
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This is all making sense - Looking at the Thermostat diagram for heat only, which is what I have they only do have three wires if you are hooking up the power. Not sure why they wanted me to run four wire. Must be for futre cooling or something. No It is because the Thermostats only need three but the actuators in the Master Bedroom Closet would need four to extend to the controls in the Boiler Room. Guess it was easier for them to tell me to run four throughout the entire house.

Now for that white thermostat wire. It would make sense to hook it to the 403 common. (Which I am reading as the lower left Dry Contacts) Just need a little more clarification on this wire. When I look at the 403 board the Dry Contacts are 24v. Earlier you said that this is where the feed for the pumps would come from - Am I correct in thinking both the pumps and the thermostat white wire would be feed from the same spot on the 403 board? I was assuming the pumps were fed from the boiler as they call for 115v. Is there both low and high voltage to the pumps? Maybe I am missing something.

Thank you for your assistance.
 
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Old 02-10-09, 03:21 PM
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I completely see how the eight actuators would blow up the system. I agree with your calculations. I was a little confused as one of the actuators in the Master Bedroom is different and only calls for 200mA. I had to look closer to see where the six was coming from. Now I understand that and await your drawing to see if I can make this work. I guess worse case senario would be to purchase a bigger ZVC.

I did speak to honeywell today and they said that the thermostats that I have are rated at 1amp per terminal at 24v. If I understand this correctly the max they can handle is four acutators. I did like the idea of having the Thermostat feed two zones and split the Kitchen into two actuators per a zone.

Other than the circulating pumps posted earlier - I think that I have it.

Thank you so much for your assistance.
 
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Old 02-10-09, 04:12 PM
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It makes sense to always run more conductors than you need... for future use, if you get an 'open' in one wire, etc... and to just buy a couple hundred foot spool of one type wire is usually cheaper than two smaller spools of different types.

It would make sense to hook it to the 403 common. (Which I am reading as the lower left Dry Contacts) Just need a little more clarification on this wire.
The thermostats can use 2 wires, the R and W ... the C wire is optional... if you leave the C wire out, the t'stat will run on the internal batteries, if you include the C wire, the t'stat will run on the 24VAC power in the panel. Batteries last lots longer that way!

You need to add the jumper as indicated ( from R to Rc ? hard to read the photo ) then 3 wires back to the panel.

BUT... NO! do NOT connect any t'stat wires to the terminals that will run the pumps!

See in the upper left of the panel where the red and yellow wires come from the transformer? One of those terminals is 24VAC COMMON. I _THINK_ the YELLOW wire is the common, but you need to determine this, since Taco doesn't see fit to label things the way I think they should. Same thing with the T T connections... you need to know which one is the 24VAC HOT terminal there... because if you get them caddy wompus, it either simply won't work right, or you'll fry something...

I assume you own and know how to use a multimeter?
Set it up for the OHMS function, you will be checking for continuity...

Measure from ANY VALVE TERMINAL #1 to the YELLOW 24VAC wire. If my memory is correct, you will see continuity there. If this is true, the yellow wire is the COMMON.

Next, measure from the RED transformer wire to each of the T T terminals on the panel. You should see continuity on ONE of them, and OPEN on the other. The one that shows continuity will be your RED thermostat wire. The one that shows OPEN will be your WHITE thermostat wire.

Next, for verification, I believe you will read continuity from VALVE TERMINALS #2 AND #4 to the T wire that read OPEN in the previous step.

So, take your Sharpie and LABEL the T terminal that shows continuity to the RED transformer wire as " R ", and label the other as " W " .

more...
 
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Old 02-10-09, 04:29 PM
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Even though the t'stats may be rated for 1 amp I would be VERY leary about running 4 actuators on 1 t'stat. From what I've read about these actuators, they draw an initial 'slug' of current that is quite a bit higher than the 250 ma that they spec...

I think you would be MUCH better off with at least one external transformer running some of the valves in the boiler room. You MAY be able to get by with the internal transformer alone on the other panel... I need to look at that some more...

This drawing is an EXAMPLE of an IDEA (NOT TESTED, NOT PROVED) that I THINK will work to 'off load' some of the valves to another transformer. I hope others will look and critique it, as I'd hate for you to hook it all up and find it doesn't work as planned.



How this should work:

The MOTOR on the FIRST kitchen valve is wired to the 403 panel. The auxiliary transformer is wired as shown, and provides power to the next three motors, THROUGH the PREVIOUS valves ENDSWITCH... and so on, down the line. The final endswitch is wired to the 403 panel and tells the panel that ALL FOUR valves are open.

The first valve opens, when open, endswitch 'makes', and powers next motor, when that opens, endswitch 'makes', etc etc ...

So, only ONE of the Kitchen valves is powered by the 403, the other three are powered by the external transformer.

You probably want to extend the wiring to off-load one more valve from the 403, and add it to the aux transformer.

Comments? anyone? Buehler? Buehler?
 
 

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