I just serviced my oil burner by myself for the first time and have a few questions. The burner is the VTF Series 640/801 with a Thermo Dynamics Model NYV-100 hot water heater. At least that's what the stickers on the burner say. I'm estimating the burner to be around 13 years old or so. From what I've been told it's a good burner as long as you do the yearly service. It has a Beckett AF burner with a 1.00 80 degree A nozzle and a Model TN, Tiger Loop.

I changed the oil filter & nozzle and did some vacumming of the stack & baffle area.

One question I have is when I disconnected the stack from atop the unit and took off the breast plate, then unscrewed the 4 screws, then lifted off the next breast plate to expose the baffles. That plate that I unscrewed for some reason was siliconed to the unit & had some kind of sealer material (almost paperlike) running around the entire area that sits atop of the baffle area. Wish I took some pictures but I was under the impression that this plate had to be removed to expose the baffle area which had to be vacummed and the remaining baffles were to be taken out and cleaned up as best as I could. The baffle area was filthy. Marran Oil used to service my burner and I can say with certainty that they never vacummed anything especially this baffle area as I had to strip the area of the silicone to get it off. Why would someone silicone this area and pretty much seal this plate to the top of the unit and did I screw up by removing this plate and vacumming the baffle area like I thought I was supposed to???

Thanks in advance and I'll have a few more questions on the rest of the job shortly...

Gary

 

Hello Gary,
The reason the flue collector was sealed with silicone is to ensure a good seal & no flue gas leakage. No you didn't screw up but I do suggest you get some high temp silicone & run a bead either around the outside of the flue collector or again remove the collector & apply silicone to the edge. As an alternative you can use gasket material like this:
Patriot Supply - KAOWOOL STRIP 2X1X25KS

It works quite well & is easy to apply. Just remove the flue collector & clean the flanged area well then apply a healthy coat of Never-Seez to the flange. (This is simply to hold the gasket material in place.) Cut strips of gasket material & press lightly to the Never-Seez. Give the studs a good coat of never-seez as well & reinstall the collector. Snug the nuts & you are good to go.

 

Hi Grady,

BTW, that's my son's name. He's 18 months old. Not a lot of Grady's out there these days.
Thanks for the insight. Quick couple of questions just to make sure I got this. This flue collector. Is that the breast plate that I referred too that had the four screws holding it down on top of the unit? Or is it the stack that pipes out of top of the unit? And is this gas something I should worry about? Should I do this ASAP type thing? And how often should I take the top of the unit apart like this and vacumn the baffle area? And is it one or the other as far as either using the silicone or the Kaowool strip to seal it back up?

Thanks again. I appreciate your help.

Gary

 

The flue collector is that shallow box which covers the baffles & to which the vent pipe connects. This is, I believe, what you refered to as the breast plate. The part which contacts the boiler should have a outward bent lip about an inch wide & 4 hole thru which the hold down bolts pass.

The silicone & kaowool are an either/or thing. I clean dozens of these boilers every year & use the kaowool. It provides a good seal & makes the collector easy to remove. I suggest you install it as soon as practical but there's no need to shut down the boiler for fear of flue gas leakage in the interem. Flue gases do contain carbon monoxide & we don't want them leaking but as long as you have good draft up the chimney & the flange sits flat on the top of the boiler you shouldn't have to worry.

Remove the top, vacuum, & wire brush the baffles yearly. Make sure you clean out the vent pipe all the way to the chimney as well. While the pipe is out of the chimney, stick a mirror in there & look up the chimney. It only takes a minute & can help you pick up on any chimney problems.

Take care of the boiler so my namesake can stay warm.

 

Ahhh. It's all coming into focus now. Thanks for the explanation. The one thing I have noticed is that there is a lot more debris (black sooty stuff) laying atop the unit. Looks like black bits of dust. Wondering if because I haven't sealed this plate it's blowing out somehow because it's not sealed properly.
I vacumned the stack part that I could reach. Unfortunately the unit has the stack running straight up about 3 feet then a hard right about extending about 4 1/2 feet then runs upward connecting to the chimney. Not sure if this was installed correctly. Just seems like a long run to connect to the chimney especially considering that there is nothing next to the boiler and they could have installed the boiler directly under the chimney so it could have been piped straight up. If that made sense...

While I got your ear...I had heard that it is a good idea for the boiler to be able to breathe so I cut a 12 inch by 12 inch hole in the exterior wall in the boiler room. I put a plastic vent so rain and such cant' get in. My friend who helped me clean the unit said he thinks I should board it back up because you want the boiler to stay warm and by having this opening cold air gets in and cools the unit making it turn on when it doesn't need too thus costing more money in oil. Another friend disagreed saying he thought the unit needs to draw air in and fresh outside air is better then drawing air from the house because the unit is taking the inside warm air thus cooling the house and making the heat come on more often thus costing more in oil. On a seperate note I did put pipe insulation on most of the pipes connected to the unit to try to keep them warm. What do you think? Seal the hole or keep it?

Thanks again for all the help...I'll order some of that Kaowool stuff & Never Seez and use that. Lastly, you had said to "Give the studs a good coat of never-seez". What are the studs?

Gary

 

And if he turns out like his namesake, he'll be sittin' in a boat all day with a wet butt and drinkin' beer, sayin' "Here fishy fishy fishy" ... Beer 4U2 Beer 4U2

(sorry... it's Friday ya know...)

Keep the vent. What'd you use? a 'gable vent' or something like that? You might want to look into setting up a 'heat trap'. If you use a piece of insulated A/C vent tubing, connected to the outdoor vent, run into the room and suspend the end of it a few inches off the bottom of a plastic garbage can, it will 'trap' the air in much the same way as a 'p trap' works in a plumbing system. Might wanna put a screen on top to discourage it's use as a trash receptacle... it's an excellent place to keep those 'extra' beers cool in the wintertime too!

 

I know Gradyz gonna be by to answer the soot thing, but if it was sooty, and it's still burnin' sooty, then you ain't burnin' right. There should be NO soot being produced!

 

Look, I've had a rough enough week & somebody's gotta bust my chops on Friday . That's OK 'cause I got rid of the "on call" pager this AM.
Speakin' of fishin', I'm going tomorrow but just from shore. Instead of the cooler it'll be a thermos of hot coffee.
Enough fun, now onto the serious stuff.

Trooper's right, there should be no soot. Soot is caused by poor combustion which in turn can be caused by numerous things. In this case the first suspect would be draft, or lack thereof. You need to take that pipe down or at least stick a bright flashlight in there to make sure the pipe is open all the way to the chimney & the chimney base is not plugged. The pipe must run uphill from the boiler to the chimney with a pitch of AT LEAST 1/4" rise per foot of run. Here's the manual for that boiler: http://www.thermodynamicsboiler.com/manuals/VTF.pdf

A crude but reasonably effective way to check draft is to hold a lit candle, lighter, or incence stick in front of the open flame observation port. While the burner is running, the flame or smoke from the candle, etc. should be pulled in toward the oil flame. If the flame or smoke blows out toward you, you don't have enough draft. If it is steady, neither drawing or blowing out, the draft condition is right on the edge & steps should be taken to improve it.

 

Hi guys, thanks for the responses. I just went downstairs to check what is laying atop the unit. I used the wrong word. It's not Sooty. It looks exactly like the stuff I vacumned out of the baffle area. Sorry for the miscommunication on that. Definitly not Soot.

The vent is a gable vent with the screen on the inside to keep the bugs out. So what exactly are the benefits of installing a vent so the unit has a constant fresh air supply??

I will try the candle test method to see how my draft is. I do remember when we cleaned the unit I did get a chance to feel the draft with my hand and I did feel it pulling inward so to speak but the candle method should tell me more.

Will also check out that manual you sent along Grady. Thanks.

The Kaowool and Never Seez will be here on Monday. What are the studs you referred to when you said to put a good coat of never seez on?? Also, when I had the flue collector plate off I noticed one of four screws had a washer on one end. Should I go out and get some washers to secure this plate and if so what end do I put the washer on??

Thanks for the help guys. I appreciate it very much.
Great idea regarding the beer cooler. The wife definitly wouldn't find them in there...LOL.

Gary

 

Would you describe it as kind of 'sandy'... black sand with tiny yellow and white speckles in it?

And you are finding this where now?

and only after you cleaned it?

I think one of the main ones is that you aren't blowing air you just paid to heat right up the chimney...

Let's say the blower on a burner moves what, 100 CFM (cubic feet per minute) of air up the chimney. In 8 minutes of run time you've moved the equivalent of a 10x10x8 room full of air up the chimney... that air is gonna come from somewhere... and this is not considering the extra air through the baro damper...

Gotta help the combustion too, don't it Grady?

 

Hi NJT,

Thanks for your responses. Definitly helpful.

Sandy would be a good word to describe it. Some larger pieces and some smaller. Definitly black and white in color. No yellow though. If you're facing the unit with the beckett sticker facing you the "sand" is directly on top of the unit to the left of the stack that is coming out of the top of unit.
I also noticed where the stack connects to the chimney through the ceiling I have about a 1/2 inch opening. It looks like whomever sealed the stack at the ceiling and whatever they used has over time detoriorated and that it needs to be resealed. I have the same "sand" on the floor directly under this area.
And I did notice the "sand" laying atop the unit after I cleaned it though I've seen some "sand" pretty much all the time in and around the unit. Not a lot but enough to notice. Wondering if my stack should be taped with that silver tape (not sure the name) around the spots where you screw the ends together and make the unit one piece. There is a tiny bit of room where maybe the "sand" can fall out if it doesn't make it out the chimney. Not sure though.

Your thoughts on the vent or not to vent makes sense. That's exactly what my wife's cousin said. Your sucking your heat out of your house. My friend who helped me clean the unit thinks that in the winter the cold air coming in from the vent will make the burner turn on more because the cold air from the vent is cooling the unit. He thinks the unit needs to stay warm. Will be more efficent.

Hopefully the Never Seez and Kaowool shows up Monday and I can attempt to reseal the flue collector area.
Thanks a lot for your insight. It is appreciated.

Gary

 

He ackshully ain't wrong either... I mean you open a window, and yer gonna lose heat! Can't get around that... that's why I suggested the flexible insulated A/C duct into a pail... the cold air fills the can or pail... when the burner fires and creates a negative pressure in the room, the cold air spills out of the can, and through the burner, up the flue pipe... when the burner stops, the pressure goes neutral in the room again, the flow of combustion air stops... well, almost... there's still gonna be some 'leakage'... but not nearly as much as if you had an open hole in the wall.

 

I meant the screws or bolts which hold on the flue collector.
Trooper's idea of the insulated hose into a bucket (a piece of flex duct works well) will help reduce the cooling effect of the open vent & still supply plenty of air for combustion.

 

Oh Ok...got it. The Kaowool and Never Seez will be here Monday so either monday or tuesday i'm going to open her back up and seal the flue collector.

One thing that concerns me a bit is where the stack goes into the ceiling to the chimney there is a gap a half inch or so running around the rim. Looks like whatever the stuff that was used to seal the stack pipe and the ceiling as it enters the chimney to vent outside is worn and needs a fresh bead run around it. Do you know what that stuff is called? And how I would do something like that? It's silver in color.
Would I just scrape away the old worn out seal all around the stack pipe and ceiling then just caulk it so to speak and maybe run the tip of my finger around it to smooth it out??

Thanks for the help guys. Appreciate it.
Hope the fish were biting today Grady.

Gary

 

A word of caution on using the Never-Seize. Wear disposable rubber gloves and use a small (1/2 or 1 inch) paintbrush to apply the stuff. Use it sparingly as a dollop the size of a quarter is enough to spread all over your basement.

This is the voice of experience.


As for the gap around the smokepipe, a picture may help for me to visualize it.

 

Furd speaks volumes except is estimate of how much of a mess it will make. He grossly exagurates ON THE LOW SIDE.
I think a dollop the size of a quarter will cover a football field.

I too would like to see a picture of that gap.

The fish were kinda finicky but we did manage a few, thanks.

 

One power plant I worked at had Jersey Barriers between it and the street. We used to say a dollop the size of a quarter on the Jersey Barrier would end up on the railroad tracks across the street and a train with its brakes on would slide through the warehouse a quarter-mile away.

Good stuff, though.

 

Thanks for the warning guys. So I'll use just a dab and spread it around the edges real easy with gloves.

I'll take a picture of that space I was talking about.

What do you think of this idea? My stack is broken up into 5 pieces or so that are connected together with screws. Would it be beneficial to tape (not sure what they call it but it's the silver kind that I used on my dryer vent pipes) where the pieces are screwed together so it makes a perfect seal?

Thanks again for the help. Really appreciate it.

Furd, I work on the railroad. I enjoyed your train example. We call that slip-slide out this way...have blown by more then a few stations this way.

Gary

 

You can use the high temp silicone for sealing the joints on the vent pipe but if it looks tight sealing is usually not needed. That vent should be under negative pressure.

 

There's an anti-sieze that comes in a 'chapstick' now... works pretty well, almost zero mess. Just don't get confused and put it on yer lips... ya won't be able to swallow for a week cuz yer lips won't stay shut.

I think 'Loctite' makes it.

 

Hi guys, hope all had a good day.

I just checked my draft with a barbeque lighter/candle test and it looked good to me. The flame was being pulled into the vent thingy and at times actually was blown out. So I believe that means my up-draft is good?

The Kaowool and Never Seez came today. I have to admit the kaowool was thicker then I thought it would be. When I bolt the flue collector plate back down do I want to just snug or do I want to tighten the bolts down to the point where the kaowool flattens out a bit??

Lastly, how do I post a picture?? I got some stack pictures that will knock your socks off!! When I click insert image it asks for a URL address. I have them saved on my computer desktop..? Hmmm.

Gary

 

The easies way to do pictures is to open a free account with photobucket.com or similar site, post your pix there, & provide a link to the album here.

Regarding the Kaowool; It crushes pretty easy so you can snug the bolts. You don't have to put them on impact wrench tight, just snug. Coat the bolts well with the never-seez before installing.

 

Ok guys,

Here is the stack pictures leading into the ceiling. If you look close you can see the 1/4 inch gap from the pipe to the ceiling and how that silver stuff is kinda detoriorating.

Let me know if this works.




password is: pipe

 

Don't think the URL went through first post.

It's Gary's Pic Album

password to view is: pipe


Hopefully this worked.

Gary

 

gary,
1-please tell me you are going to have someone w/ the right test instruments set up the burner since you replaced the nozzle?
2-you should not have to seal the flue pipe joints. natural draft should prevent leakage.

 

I'm a little nervous... is that pipe like mere INCHES away from drywall? what's the ceiling made of?

Is that an electrical wire exiting a hole in the wall behind the flue pipe?

That is a pretty long run of fluepipe!

Where does that pipe go after it goes through the ceiling? What kind of chimney is up there?

 

If you wish, in order to prevent water leakage, you can seal the pipe joints but it should not really be needed.
The sealant around where the pipe enters the chimney is furnace cement. It should be available at most home centers & plumbing supply houses.

Suggestion: Replace the last elbow before the chimney with a tee with the bottom plugged. This will serve as a drip leg as well as a place to collect & clean out rust & ash. Also check the chimney cap. It may have deteriorated.

 

I didn't notice how close the pipe is to the drywall. That verticle part, thru the elbow should probably be at least type "L" vent. Even then, minimum clearance to combustibles is 3".
I too wonder if that is a wire. If not a wire, what?

 

Hi guys, ok. Looks like I got some explaining to do. Here we go.

dairdvl, I didn't plan on having someone set up the burner since I replaced the nozzle. My friend who helped me and was the supervisor so to speak of the job and I did the annual maintenance on the unit since I dumped my contract with Marran Oil. And judging by all the stuff we did Marran never did a proper service to the unit in the 3 years I had them service the unit. I believe we did a good job cleaning the unit and don't need a service call to set up the burner. What kind of setup would they normally do?

 

Hi guys,

NJ Trooper, the ceiling is 1 1/2 inch sheetrock with what appears to be some kind of aluminum or metal of some kind attached to it. It's painted so I can't be sure but when I tapped my pen against it it was not just sheetrock but also had some kind of metal layer. A thin layer.

Yes, that is a wire. It runs from the bathroom next door through that hole you saw and up into the ceiling. I've seen that same wire in the attic. I believe it runs parralel with the chimney stack and up into the attic. It is a heavy thick insualted wire but it is kinda close to the stack. It's been there forever or at least since we've been here, 4 years or so.

Not sure what kind of chimney I have. I've got a chimney box on the roof at the peak sitting on the edge of the roof. Not a brick one. Metal stack all the way up and out. Vents out through a metal box atop the roof.

Any thoughts?

 

I took some measurements of the vent pipe. From the unit up is 3 ft 6 inches. Piping across to the right is 3 ft 9 inches. The pipe that goes into ceiling has a clearence in the back of 4 inches and the side wall of 3 inches.

grady, I like the T addition idea.

that wire is 2 inches from the stack piping into the ceiling. I'm wondering if that wire goes parallel with the chimney all the way up the side of the house? I think it does and probably shares the cyclinder with the chimney piping.

I think I covered all questions. There is a lot going on now eh guys? Hopefully that wire won't be an issue because I don't see anyway to move it as it runs from the basement to the attic in a straight line.

An off subject question. What do they call the insualtion that lays on top of the unit? Is it a fire rated insualtion? The local shop I went to said they didn't carry it but that it wasn't anything special.

Thanks a lot for sticking with me guys. I appreciate the help.

Gary

 

The insulation is nothing special, just fiberglass (unfaced).
That wire should be either re-routed (preferably) or protected in metal conduit.
I'd still rather see type 'L' vent from the chimney down past the elbow.
When a good tech services a burner he normally checks for smoke, CO, CO2, O2, draft, pump pressure, ignition transformer output, burner safety timing, stack temperature, & other stuff I'm sure I'm forgetting at the moment. In all honesty, VERY few actually do the job right.

 

You're right Grady. I've had this burner serviced on 4 seperate occasions and one guy took off the stack and vacumned. Not the flue collectore area but the stack and he did some CO tests. Otherwise all they ever did was change the oil filter and clean the air vents on motor with a wire brush and bleed the system occasionly. I also got my oil from them through a contract. I got knocked around pretty good last year. 4.19 a gallon. 3.54 a gallon. Etc. They should make it illegal for the company you get your oil from to also service your unit through a conflict of interest. If you think about it, all they want to do is keep your burner running good enough to not have to come back for a callback all year and to use as much oil as possible! That's why I dumped Marran Oil and decided to try to do it myself. Not without some problems but doing ok I think.

I have some R-13 and R-19 insulation. Would that work if I took off the paper on the R-13?? And maybe cut it in half. It's a bit thick.

That Type L vent. Was that the T type you were referring too before?? Might have to call in the pro's on that one though. Not really sure how to connect that to the chimney vent pipe.

Who ever ran that wire was not too sharp. It definitly was an aftermarket job that's for sure. I'll call my electrian buddy and have him take a look. Probably going to have to do something like you mentioned.

Hope you had a good day.

Thanks a lot. Appreciate the help.

Gary

 

The vent pipe is type 'L' not 'T'. It is double wall & made for use with oil fired appliances.

I understand your frustration with your oil company. Even within companies, there are widely varing levels in the quality of service. There is a lot of pressure on techs from both sides (management & consumers) on what level of service is to be done. Companies with service contracts or who charge a flat rate for a certain task tend to push their techs more to be fast. Usually those who charge by "time & materials" don't push their techs as hard but consumers, knowing the tech is on the clock, tend to rush a tech to get done as quickly as possible. This, in both cases, is not always true but in general it is.

The stripped & split R-13 should be fine. I probably wouldn't bother splitting it.

 

I might consider some sheet metal shielding applied to the walls and ceiling... spaced away from the wall about an inch, with airflow behind it. This in ADDITION to the double wall vent...

I actually cringe a little when I look at the pics!

That sounds to me as though you have a 'manufactured chimney' which runs in a 'chase' all the way up.

I believe there is supposed to be some kind of 'ceiling thimble' up there, and 'radiation shields' around the chimney pipe where ever it passes through a 'partition', such as the ceiling. A 'radiation shield' is basically what I described with the metal on the walls spaced away an inch... where the chimney passes through the structure, there is basically a big pipe installed which leaves a gap between the chimney itself and any combustibles... basically guaranteeing minimum clearances.

I quickly googled up a page that has some of the items I mentioned above...

Chimney parts...

Here's an install PDF that gives some construction details:

Simpson Dura-Plus installation

Definitely have a qualified electrician look at that wire...

 

Hey guys, I'm going to have an electrician check out that wire and in the meantime do the other things on my list with the boiler. Thanks for all the help. Very much appreciated. You both know you're stuff. I'll let you know the outcome of the wire issue and what not. Have a great week.

Gary