I will do my best to answer all the questions, please excuse me if i dont i am a first time home buyer and still learning a lot of this stuff.

1. In which area you live and ambient temperatures you usually experience. CT


2. House style and construction details. Cape Built 1947


3. Make, model and age of equipment related to the problem. Old Cast Iron Furnace? Oil Burning, Hot water (originally steam), cast iron radiators on main floor, baseboard (hydronic?) upstairs

4. Fuel type. Oil

5. Water temperature and pressures of boiler systems. Currently 140F, 15lbs - the system is off

6. What type of zoning do you have with your boiler system. Currently 1 zone, would like to add a second for the upstairs

7. Thermostat type. RiteTemp - Digital

8. Anything else that would be useful. No detail is to small.
I purchased the house in October, the heat works GREAT downstairs, but upstairs.. it doesnt get hot. I can hold the pipes, I never checked the temp but if i had to guess i would say they are about 70degrees in the main bedroom and 50 in the spare bedroom. The spare bedroom gets SO cold in the winter we leave the door closed. Luckily the master bedroom is livable, I put an oil filled radiant heater up there to get through the winter. I've bled both bedrooms upstairs and nothing ever changes. I had 1 guy come and take a look at the setup and I will get into what he said in a little bit. Here are some pictures of the setup.


This is basically the layout of the heating system, I have marked where the DIY guy spliced into the main loop and added his pipes to go up to each bedroom. More photos below.





These are the 2 splices for the spare bedroom (not sure why this side has 2 shut off valves on it?) Maybe to conserve? Any guesses? I never tried shutting them off.





And here is what the spare bedroom heater looks like.






Both of these splices are for the master bedroom, 1 is the feed one is the return.



This is what the baseboard in the master bedroom looks like. I know its hideous, the fact that those pipes are sticking out about 6" DRIVES ME BANANAS!!! WHY WOULD HE DO THIS!?

The guy that I had come look at the system said in order to get the heat to work upstairs, he would have to run new supply lines that were 3/4" to bring it up to code (currently the pipe that is there is 1/2". I would like to add a zone so that the upstairs bedrooms have their own thermostat. I understand that would require a second loop, and perhaps another pump. My main goal is to get the heat to work upstairs, if putting it on its own zone will solve this problem then that is what i will ultimately do.

My main questions are:
1 - Do I have to change those 1/2" lines to get the heat to work upstairs, whether I add a zone or not, or is the problem something other than the size of those pipes?

2 - Do I have to keep those bleeders on the baseboards upstairs

3 - Why does 1 room KINDA work, but the other room not do anything at all? (The room that doesnt work is farthest from the furnace)

Thats all I can think of for now, Im sure more will come up with some feedback. I apologize about the photos I had mixed up the splices with the rooms, that explains the weird white boxes behind the text.Thanks in advance!

Oh yea here is a picture of the furnace...

 

Do you know for a fact that the circulator pump is running?

I presume you made sure it is bled and water comes out upstairs? Water coming out only means you have the 15 psi -not necessarily that any circulator pump is running.

Did this system, with all the copper, and perhaps additional radiators added into the system, ever work right thereafter? In a similar situation in a 2-story rental, the HVAC guy who ran the copper lines off the main 2 1/2 inch trunk lines, had to come back and install a separate circulator for the copper run - as what was happening was the smaller copper line, even though connected to the appropriate supply and return lines, was sort of just being bypassed.

In that one photo you show where you cannot figure out why the copper is hanging out the bottom of the baseboard heater - what you probably have there is a section of supply line that hugs the floor, goes to the end of the radiator, turns upwards a couple inches then runs through the center of the heater, as it should, where the copper is finned. A system I just worked on had that very thing going on, with the two copper lines - where one bare copper line simply ran along the floor under the unit, and then turned upward and then it made a "U", and headed back thru the heater as finned copper. Why is it that way? The piping may be in series, as opposed to having a supply line into the one end of the radiator, while the return line comes out the other end. Or they simply ran the supply and return pipes up through the floor, say at the right end, and had to run the supply along the floor over to the left end, where there it actually traverses through the center of the radiator.

 

First off, thanks for the reply.

Do I know for a fact that the circulator pump is running? - I would only assume so, mainly because there is only 1 running the entire system and I can in fact feel water moving through the pipes when the heat is on.

Yes, when I bled the radiators upstairs weater did come out.

Did the system ever work right thereafter? - This I don't know, I moved in here about 4 months ago, I never got to talk to the seller, I never saw him at the closing. I dont even think he is the one that did it, I think the guy before him did it. Its funny you mentioned that story about the renter, because the guy that looked at this system used the same word "bypassed." He said because of how the system was tapped into, it looks like it was just being bypassed.

As for the baseboard upstairs, yes I agree that the lines are only cosmetic, in fact both lines stick out about 6" and make the "U" that you refer to, I just couldnt figure out why it would have been done that way when the other room was done so nicely. Im sure they ran it through the floor boards, unless there is something weird going on with the beams in the floor I couldnt figure out why he would want to see those pipes. Im not exacly sure what you meant when you said the piping may be in series. The other line is about a foot and a half away from the one in the picture, they both go into the floor at the same point so it is symmetrical, just ugly.

 

According to your line drawing, you have an entire system in series. Perhaps you need a circulator pump that has more volume capacity.

if the water travels too slow, through a system that is done in series, as the water goes through each radiator in the series, at each one downstream, the heat becomes less and less -if the speed of the circulator is not fast enough.

On the house I fixed up, there was 120 or more feet of solid 3/4 finned copper radiators around the perimeter of the house, in series (like your drawing), and the temp drop from where it entered to where it ended was only about 10 degrees difference (approx. 145-135 degrees F). Quite remarkeable actually, since almost the entire run has fins on it to disipate the heat!

 

Ahhh... ok I understand. The next time the heat kicks on I will use my infrared thermometer to check the temp of the pipes in multiple locations. Now that I think about what you are saying, the fact that those 2 runs have to go up an entire story, would make the circulator pump have to work that much harder wouldnt it? Chances are it IS the pump if Im picking up what you are putting down. If I were to put the upstairs on its own zone, would the 1/2" copper lines that are currently there suffice, and what size would you use as the main 'trunk' as you called it?

Thanks again!

 

In the case of those copper baseboard radiators, from my experience, normally they are 3/4 inch. And the HVAC guy we use has used the very same pipe size to go across entire basement and through 2 floors to get to the 2nd floor. But as stated, he also had to install a separate pump for this newly created 2nd zone, with it's own stat. I think at first he simply had a separate zone valve, with only one circulation pump serving the entire house. But he wound up having to add a separate circulator pump for that zone.

If all your piping really is in series, as your line drawing suggests, then there really is no trunk line.

If your drawing is not correct, please correct it, and/or explain. Like, do you have a piping layout where the downstairs radiators are all in series, that come from a supply side trunk line and returrn through a return trunk line? And the upstairs radiators also is tapped into the supply trunk line. And after going through the radiators up there, exits and returns to the return trunk line? Please be clear on what kind of piping system you have?

Again: If all the radiators are in series, where the water enters the 1st radiator, then comes out the 1st radiator and heads to the 2nd radiator, and then comes out the 2nd radiator and goes to the 3rd radiator, and exits, and goes into the 4th radiator, and exits that, etc, etc., until it reaches the last radiator, and then finally returns to the boiler?

Or, do you have something more similar to what I describe 2 paragraphs above, where I asked "If your drawing...."

 

Ok, i see what you're saying. Wow, I apologize I cant believe I didnt catch that sooner. I believe I DO in fact have the trunk line as you explained and my drawing is NOT correct. In order to make my drawing correct, where each line goes to the radiator you would have to connect the feed and supply line. If you look closely at the drawing you can see that I erased those lines but they do in fact have to be there. Even in the photo's you can see that the trunk line keeps going when a radiator is tapped into it. Again, Im really sorry I even checked my writeup and photos 3 times before posting. There is 1 main trunk line, maybe 2" in diameter (i havent measured) that goes around the entire basement and each radiator is tapped into the trunk line. It does NOT go from 1 radiator to the next. Once again, sorry about that.

 

It be nice if a mod could transfer this thread to the boilers forum, so you could get some more and professional responses.

 

I've been reading along. I notice from one of the pictures that there is at least one Monoflow tee installed. If S10 would take some more pictures, one of where each branch connects to the heat emitter, I might have a bit better idea.

Please scale down the pictures to a maximum size of 640 by 480 so I don't have to pan my screen back and forth.

 

Sorry about the big pictures. Where would you like me to take pictures? What is a heat emitter? Is that where the radiators tap into the main line?

 

A heat emitter is the device that actually heats the room. It could be a baseboard convector like you have already pictured, a cabinet convector which is like a baseboard but taller and shorter or a cast iron radiator. If all you have is baseboard convectors then I don't need any more pictures of those.

What I do want to see is where the pipes leading through the floor to the heat emitters are connected to the main line. I suspect that some of the connections will be standard tees and others will be "Monoflo" tees and these will likely have an arrow on them. Please describe which end of the baseboard each tee, both the regular tee and the Monoflo tee, connects to and whether or not there is an air vent on that end.

Also a few more pictures of the piping at the boiler. Try to get pictures from all around the boiler if possible.

 

Ok, I hope I got everything. First off, as I stated the house is a cape, all heat emitters on the main floor are cast iron. The only baseboard heaters are upstairs (the ones that dont seem to work well). I have attached 2 pictures of the cast iron (they are all setup this way) and both baseboards.

The cast iron setups look like this.



Here are the baseboards upstairs.



The connections in the basement for this baseboard look like this.



Here is the spare bedroom upstairs..



And the connections in basement for this room...



I cant put anymore pictures in this post I have to continue it........

 

....continued......(please read post below this one first, sorry didnt realize there was a picture maximum.)


All of the original heating connections on the cast iron heaters downstairs look like this...


Here are the pictures of the furnace..






Let me know if I missed something, again, thanks for all of the help!!

 

It may be that there is not enough flow inducement for the upstairs loop. I cant really tell, but I dont think the fitting where the added on loop starts is a flow fitting, and if not I think one might help. Now viewing the additional pics, that
fitting might well be a flow fitting.

 

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you.

What I really wanted to see is where the radiators and baseboards connect to the one-pipe main line in the basement. I want the direction of flow marked as well.

In some systems the Monoflo tees are installed with the branch being the supply to the radiator or baseboard and other systems use the Monoflow on the return side of the heater. Specifically, I want to know if all the heaters have the Monoflow on the supply or return.

Monoflo systems are sometimes hard to bleed the air from. Sometimes it is easier to bleed with the circulator running and sometimes it is easier when the circulator is NOT running. Those float type air vents need to be on the outlet of the heater and if the Monoflo tees are also on the outlet they can actually suck in air under some conditions.

The 1/2 inch copper tubing for the baseboards is definitely not the preferred size but depending on the developed run (including the friction losses of the elbows) it may be okay. Although it would be a big job to include a separate circulator for these baseboards that may end up being the best fix. You would have to repipe all of the baseboards to a new supply and return system all the way back to the boiler and add a few new controls.

I'm also thinking that 15 psi may be a bit low. While the smaller pipe size (the copper) will theoretically increase the velocity of the water flowing the low pressure also allows for bigger air bubbles making an air lock easier to occur. You might try raising the hot pressure to about 20 psi and try to manually bleed the baseboards by removing the tire valve caps and pressing down the tire valve. I know it's messy but use a bunch of rags and towels to contain the mess. Sometimes you need to bleed quite a bit of water in order to get the air bubble moving towards the vent.

 

Furd,

Would it help if OneSickS10 were to do another drawing of the whole system? Obviously, from the pics I see with trunk lines and tees, he did not make his first drawing correct at all, as he showed everything completely in series, in one continous loop.

In a new drawing, he could show trunk lines, tees and pipe sizes and locations on the heater were vents are, and...if you need anything else.

Just an idea - so one can get an overview of the entire layout.

 

ec, yer right, an accurate drawing would help a lot!

How come nobody has anything to say about the way the existing pump is mounted?

 

I haven't scrolled down to take a look - but be my guest - have at it. You are one of the pros.

 

Thanks for all the replies fellas. For some reason I wasn't get notified of all of the responses. I'll get going on a new drawing. Ill try my best to get all the pipe sizes. When its all said and done I would ultimately like the 2 baseboards upstairs on their own zone so please keep that in mind when responding. What am I looking for on these tees, because they all pretty much look the same and I only see markings on maybe 1 or 2 of them. I have bled the basebaords upstairs (with the system running) and a few times I got water (which I assumed was good.. no air pockets) and lately I am getting absolutely nothing, not even a 'hiss'. I'll get working on this. Thanks again!

 

Good catch..system pressure needs to be over 20 PSI to mount pump motor up. Also, these pumps tend to lack what it takes to move the water into the BOILER [semantics] from the system with the amount of changes there are in this system..to much resistance.I have had to change flow direction ..from boiler to system.Can't do it with monoflows.Could not tell from pics if flow direction was correct.

 

Can't wait to see the new drawing.

Be sure you are clear in how each radiator is piped, so that everone can see if supply and return trunk lines are used, so that everyone can see how easy or not putting the upstairs on it's own zone will be, and if any additional piping needs to be done.

 

Here is the new drawing, as stated in the center I cant tell which pipe is In and which pipe is Out when looking at it from the basement because they dont go through the floor like the cast iron ones. The holes are not side by side. Im thinking (and hoping) I can cut the 4 baseboard taps at the trunk and create a second loop for them which will put them on their own zone. Am I headed in the right direction? Get a new manifold and second pump, wire up the thermostat and maybe use 1" trunk line for the 2 baseboards? The red lines would simulate the second loop.

 

Glad to see you posted it.


Since you are not dealing with separate supply and return trunk lines, perhaps your plan will go smoother than the one we experienced, where we (the landlord I work for) similarly added on an upstairs zone, by tapping into the 2 1/2 inch supply and return trunk lines, with 3/4 copper, to serve the upstairs baseboard radiators, and this new zone caused poor flow to the upstairs and reversed the flow through at least some of the tunk lines for the downstairs -until the HVAC guy came back and added a circulator for the new upstairs zone.

But since you have some monoflow system, maybe you will have not problems.

I'd like to see a mod and/or furd weigh in.

 

Sick, which of the tee fittings have an ARROW on them, and which do not? Also, which direction the arrow is pointing.

You DO have a monoflo system, and the tees with the arrows on them are special 'venturi' tees. They work the same way a venturi in a carburetor does... they create a pressure difference which forces the water to flow through the loops.

Most monoflo systems use one venturi tee, and one standard tee. Some systems with higher resistance to flow require a monoflo venturi fitting on BOTH the supply and return to the loop. You might try this first... if your system has only one on the non-flowing loop, replace the standard tee with another venturi tee. Make sure you understand how they work and point it in the proper direction! (as others have said)

Your problem is probably that there is air trapped in the upstairs loops and not allowing flow. Air can be difficult to remove in a monoflo system.

Your pump should not be mounted in that fashion. It's probably not contributing to the problem, but the installation instructions for that pump are as kilowatt says, to only mount in that position if there is more than 20 PSI in the system. The pump could 'cavitate' more easily mounted like that.

I'm wondering if that pump has enough 'ooomph' to get enough flow in the system to get the upstairs water moving... (as others have said)

 

Here's a pic that shows how these gadgets work:



and another that shows how air can stop flow in a loop:

 

Great information guys! Thanks! I will take a look at the Tees tomorrow, I think there is only 1 T in the system that actually has an arrow on it. Let me take a look at it and i will snap a picture. It is the first T in the loop, .. so from the pump it goes up (if you remember the pictures) turns 90 degrees towards the water heater and right above teh water heater is the T with the arrow on it this tee is where first upstairs baseboard is tapped into the trunk. The arrow is pointing at the furnace, so if that is a flow arrow I would say it is not pointing the correct direction. Again, Ill get pictures to make sure and we can go from there. I will check the other T's in the system as well. Also, I dont know how i can figure out if those air bleeds are on the correct side of the baseboards or not I will take a picture of how they go up into the wall so you can see what I am talking about. Thanks!!

 

There is only 1 T fitting with an arrow on it and that is the first fitting in the system. The water comes out of the pump, goes up and over and then there is the T. Check out the pics below.

 

Let's back up a bit...

First, it appears that your circulator pump is on the RETURN, pumping INTO the boiler. The lower pipe on the boiler is always the return, the higher pipe is always the supply. So we know that the flow direction is OUT the top of the boiler around the trunk line, and back into the boiler where the circ pump is.

Next, it appears that you have several different types/manufacturers of diverter, venturi, monoflo tee fittings. The one with the metal plate riveted on is such a tee fitting. If you look closely, you can probably make out some wording, and possibly an arrow under the paint on that fitting.

Each radiator that is tapped off the trunk must have at least ONE diverter, venturi, monoflo tee. They may have two if needed. A single diverter tee can be on EITHER the inlet or the outlet of the radiator loop.

You said in an earlier post:

If you are getting NOTHING out of the bleeder vent, then you don't have enough pressure in the system to raise the water to that height. There's a VERY good chance that the pressure gauge on the boiler is not accurate either.