Hello all, This is the long intro and background info. If you want the short version go to my next post.

I am new to the forum and new to home ownership. We have been busy upgrading this house built in 1913 and are gutting it and rebuilding.

One major risk with this purchase was the 550 gal underground oil tank that is over 30 years old. We had it tested and it tested GOOD. But the removal of that risk has been high on the list.

I have an almost 20 year old Weil Mclain boiler with a Beckett burner and with steam radiators through the house except for a hot water baseboard zone in the basement. I also have an indirect water heater ... 41 gal Amtrol blue tank.

Here are some Pics

 

I got a 275 gal above ground tank from a friend who switched to Natural Gas. He had it in his garage. I have it almost fully installed in my basement according to NFPA 31 regulations. My underground tank is almost run dry so I have to finish it ASAP so we can keep enjoying hot water.

That's where you come in, hopefully! I need help with the details of connecting it in place of the old supply lines.

I have about a 6 to 8 foot run from the tank to the boiler.

I could ask a whole bunch of questions or simply ask "What would you do"?

Here are a few specifics:
Do I run a single or double line? I would like to run a single supply line instead of double since that is how it is currently hooked up. Do I use the top connections on the tank as pictured or the bottom spout? Does this need to be gravity fed or is there indeed a pump attached to the burner?







I'm too tired to keep thinking about this tonight ... maybe someone can get me off in the right direction and I can ask more in response.

I appreciate your time.

 

I hope that isn't either wood or red brick under the tank legs. If it is get rid of it before the tank gets filled.

I my opinion the ideal way to connect a tank to the burner is with a single line from the top to a Tiger Loop & a two pipe configuration between the Tiger Loop & the burner. Install a valve in the tank bottom for drainage of condensation & sludge.

Second choice would be a single pipe off the bottom.

BTW: The tank should be sloped about 1/4" per foot of tank length toward the bottom outlet.

 

My opinion is there is no need for a tiger loop if the tank is installed in the basement and a gravity feed to the FUEL PUMP already installed on the oil burner.
Use a good quality oil filter such as a Garber Spin on. Watch copy cats. The Garber is a 10 Micron filter and some of the copy cats are 50 micron filters. That just means it filters better with the lower numbers. Install an OSV (Oil Safety Valve) in case of a line leak it does not allow the tank to drain all over your basement. I am sure Trooper will chime in on the OSV and the underground tank situation.
Slope the tank slightly to wards the valve side on the bottom of the tank so any moisture can move out in very small amounts and it does not lay in there and accumulate and cause problems.

 

Thanks for the input, Grady.

I had a feeling about the wood (2x4) feet on the tank but shrugged it off since that was my friends setup and he had it professionally installed. What's the logic behind this?

It would take a little effort to do but I could do it if need be. Since the fill and vent are already installed with the current height 2x4 I would have to either re-configure the piping or get cement block or something that is the same height.

I have the tank sloped but I will make sure it is near 1/4" per foot and change that too.

Something to add to the scenario ... the tank probably has 10 - 20 gallons in it so that complicates things with putting a spout on the bottom.

 

Thanks, rbeck!

So, I guess, you are saying to install a single supply at the bottom of the tank.

I looked this up and the site said install it as close to the tank as possible and their picture had the filter before the OSV. Would I need to move the filter from it's current location? (http://www.websterfuelpumps.com/pdffiles/osv1.pdf)

 

Hmm .. or were you referring to use it as a pressure reducer and place near to the fuel pump?

 

hee hee... how'd ya guess?

Yeah, yer doing the absolute right thing to get that tank out of the ground NOW, BEFORE it leaks. I'm not gonna re-post my pics though... but suffice it to say that my underground leaker has caused a lot of trouble... and it's still going on, and it's 4 years later...

The OSV will prevent the tank from emptying into the basement in the event there is a leak between the tank and the burner. They need to be mounted not more than 3 feet above the level of the burner. In your case, I would mount it near the tank. I would move the General filter you have to the outlet of the tank, then the OSV, and then install the 10 micron spin-on at the burner.

That 10-15 gallons that you say in currently in that tank is probably SLUDGE, and I would dispose of it. Before I re-installed that tank I probably would have flushed it out with Kerosene, swilled it around, emptied it again, 5 more gallons of kerosene, etc ... in fact, I personally probably would not have re-used an old tank.

I would also have placed a large pan made for the purpose under the tank, just in case.

Wood rots in contact with concrete... red brick would break. Then the tank would tip... connections might leak, might rip the fill pipes outta the wall... yeah, get rid of the wood.

 

Thanks again for the advice! My father and I were busy following your advice this past Saturday.

We got 1&1/4" black pipe at the proper lengths to replace the old legs with the 2x4's beneath.

We pumped what ended up being 40 to 50 gallons of oil out of the above ground tank the majority of which we put into the underground tank except for the dirtiest and the sludge. There was probably 1" of sludge on the bottom of the tank. We scrapped as much as possible out while jacking up the far end of the tank and then added the Kerosene in 3 steps. Wow it is amazing how that Kerosene cleaned the bottom.

 

Regarding the idea with a sloping tank with the bottom spout, in such a set up you get the water and sediment which settles on the bottom of the tank drawn into the supply line. With the 2 filter setup you will be regularly filtering out a lot of that sediment. But what about the water getting into the supply line?

rbeck hinted that this set up will move out the moisture in very small amounts. I guess that makes sense but what happens to that water? ... is it just burned off with the oil? Wouldn't that have the effect of slightly cooling the fire? Am I making too big a deal of the presence of water?

I am just trying to think it through before I commit to the single, bottom supply line type design.

Any thoughts?

 

The water will collect in the bottom of the first filter canister. When changing the filter you dump the oil and water in the canister.

 

paral, the pictures of the inside of the tank you posted (post #9) shows that water was in the oil. Note the third picture, how the oil is a gray color. That is due to water. The first two pic's have the flash reflecting back so can't tell with those.

Then the fourth picture with the clean tank. That appears to me to be rust in the bottom. Which further supports the fact that water was present in that tank.

Pull the oil from the bottom tap of the tank with at least one filter at that point. Several well-known posters here recommend two filters in series at the tank. The first w/o a filter element, the second with one.

Then a good filter placed at the burner. The filters at the tank capture the bulk of the bad stuff. Which helps protect the line, valves and OSV (if used) from clogging.

This past Summer I put a new line in between the tank and burner. And in doing so put a filter and Firomatic at the tank. There is also a filter at the burner. I didn't pull from the bottom as there isn't a tap for that. It is a lower end tap that is being pulled from.

I've also dipped for water and haven't found any. Once the weather warms up I'll be replacing the filters. It is going to be interesting as to what is found in them. I know that there is gunk in the bottom on the tank. And, the tank was run very low twice this Winter.

Which stirred up the gunk on the fill. I know that as when I bleed the system from a run-out the oil wasn't all nice and water-red-clear <G>.

The previous line that was replaced was basically clogged with sludge. I can only guess at how the pump pulled oil through that line.

One reason I recommend the two filters at the tank is because apparently your area has oil with water in it. Of course I don't know where that water came from. It may have been from a fill cap that allowed water in. But if it is common for the oil delivered in your area. Then the dual filters can only help.

Al.

 

I think that particularly with above ground tanks, the majority of water comes from condensation. This is one reason many pros will recommend filling the tank at the end of the season. With the tank full, there's much less space for humid air to get in and condense inside. With the tank in a conditioned space, there's much less chance of this happening... but this tank spent it's life in a garage area... so probably was subject to the condensation problem.

I'm using the Roth double wall tank here... and several times this spring, as the weather warmed and the dew point went up, even with the double wall, the outside of the tank was dripping wet with condensate... same thing happens inside, probably to a lesser degree, but it happens...

 

NJ, so true. I've had the condensation issue on the outside of engines on cars that sit outside. So much so that the spark plugs wires would jump over causing a rough running engine (until warm, and a sign that new wires are needed).

Sudden change in weather and water condenses on/in everything. Cold, with a warm humid front coming in. Water everywhere.

paral, after the system starts getting used (next Fall), just note the color of the oil in the bottom of the filters when you change them. Water in the oil tends to be regional. This is other then what can condense in the tank from the weather.

Al.

 

Here in CT the homeowner has the option of to remove the contents of the undergound tank and then fill with sand. A neighbor is having this done by a pro and it still requires taking soil samples to ensure no contamination has occurred. In his case it was somewhat less expensive than tank removal. Food for thought....

 

Thanks again for the input! I am just getting back to this project after being preoccupied on others. This one is back to highest priority

I leaning toward the two filter design with the General Filter 1A-25A at the tank.

I am curious what the air bleeding procedure is for when you change this filter nearest the tank. It seems like an awful lot of oil is "ahead" of the air pocket that was created by the filter change. How would you bleed out this air? Do you do it at the pump and have to flush all of the oil that was "ahead" of the air pocket?

 

Yes, you bleed the air at the pump & yes, you do pump out all the fuel between the filter & the pump.

 

The General filter has a bleed screw on the top of it. Once back together this is opened until the air, or most of the air, is bled out of the cannister. Do this with the burner off and the shut off valve cracked open.

I usually dump the oil that has been bled out of the system back into the tank. Oil can be messy, no doubt about it. Although I use pie tins and such under the filter and under the burner in case of any drips.

Al.

 

OK Thanks again.

So here is my plan.

Coming off the tank I will have in this order:
1. a standard valve
2. General Filter 1A-25A
3. a standard valve (NEEDED?/Good to have to prevent back flow when changing the 1A-25A filter?)
4. OSV
5. About 6 feet of copper pipe (with flared connections)
6. Firomatic valve (that can be closed when changing the spin-on)
7. Garber Spin-On (with pressure gauge)

Please critique/improve!!!

Also for #6 ... Check out the picture below ... please confirm that this is a firomatic. If so, should I reuse this or get new?

 

I would put a firomatic between the OSV and the oil tank. An OSV has a rubber material like diaphragm in it. I could easily see that being damaged in a fire and having the contents of the tank feeding the frenzy.

The valve prior to the filter does look to be an firomatic. Just by the type of handle on it. I would either do a good cleaning of it, or purchase a new one. If sludged up and not exercised they will freeze up.

Try slowly closing the handle and see if it retains tension as the spring pulls the stem down. If not then you know it is gummed up.

Just my opinion, I am not a fan of OSV's. Even is Massachusetts they are not always required. If the line is sleeved wherever it comes into contact with cement, and there is an oil valve on the pressure line to the nozzle, no OSV is required.

And a sleeved line plus an oil valve (delayed of course for pre-purge), beat an OSV any day of the week.

Al.

 

Thanks, Al!

Can you please elaborate on the oil valve that is delayed for pre-purge? Or point me to some reference so I can read up on its uses and benefits?

 

Not sure of a good reference, so I'll explain it a bit. Currently, when the burner fires up the oil is delivered to the nozzle shortly after the motor starts. It isn't at full pressure yet so it starts off with a flame that is on the lazy, dirty side.

Same with when the burner stops. The oil flow will continue for a short period of time while the motor spins down. Again producing a dirty flame.

At these times soot will be created which coat the inside of the boiler. And on start up possibly blow out the barometric damper.

With an oil delay valve (pre-purge), the oil to the nozzle is held off for a period of time. Say 10 to 15 seconds. This allows the fan speed, air delivery to the burner, along with the oil pressure to increase to the proper running pressures.

Then the oil valve opens with an instant flame being produced. This provides for a clean start up of the fire. Along with getting the air flowing through the boiler and up the chimney. Which helps prevent the escape of soot though the baro-damper at start up.

Then on burner shut-off, the oil valve closes instantly killing the flame. This prevents the flame and resultant soot from occurring as the burner motor slows to a stop.


So in a nut shell, with pre-purge, the burner starts up with no flame. Runs for 12-15 seconds, then instant fire when the valve opens. On turn off, the flame goes out instantly then the burner slows to a halt.


Installation of the oil valve is easy. It goes into the line between the pump and the burner oil nozzle line. In your IMG_2367.jpg pic it would be in the small copper line in the left-center of the picture.

The other required item is a primary control to operate as pre-purge. This would replace the box in the upper right of the same picture (gray/silver with the red button). Will need a primary such as the Beckett GeniSys, or Honeywell R7184.

Note that the oil delay valve is a solenoid valve. It is electrically operated. I first used one on an old ArcoFlame burner that for as long as I know blew soot out the baro damper on start up. Dirty, filthy thing.

The soot leakage stopped that day. I could also hear the difference in start up and shut down. It was instant, flame on, flame off. The difference was so much that even when I put a flame retention burner in it got an oil delay valve prior to being installed.

Al.

 

There is a less expensive way to get the same result. Here is a Honeywell valve with a built-in 3-8 second delay. Product

By using this valve you don't need to replace the primary control. Granted the pre-purge isn't as long but even 5 seconds is a major improvement over no delay.

 

Ok, thanks. It sounds like a valuable upgrade but is mainly to fix existing soot problems. I am processing this as a future add on ... but not a necessity/code issue for standard supply line piping.

I now understand what the oil valve would do but I am not making the connection on how it would replace an OSV.

Correct me if I am wrong. The OSV only opens when there is a vacuum on the output side to prevent the oil tank from draining due to a breakage in the line. Similar function to the firomatic but for a breakage, not fire/heat related.

How would an oil valve replace the OSV's function?

 

You are correct about the way an OSV works & it's function. The delayed oil valve aids in clean ignition & shut down in addition to providing a secondary cut off in addition to the valve in the pump. Several times I've seen the internal pump valve fail & allow oil to gravity flow into the appliance. OSVs are a great concept but frequently fail. Sometimes they stick open while other times they won't open.