Oh I remember this coversation with a certain Ralph many a time ago. I was going to mention this myself, but I could not do it the justice you just did.

 

No need to be sorry. Just trying to make things a bit more clear. Good on ya.

 

I do not understand how the Tekmar indoor sensor dominates the outdoor curve to determine the supply temp. What then does the outdoor curve do?

 

rbeck- "...And to think this all started 40 - 50 years ago..."

Funny, that is exactly what my father did about 55 yrs ago (mech engineer tinkering). It stayed that day until about 25 yrs ago when I replaced that huge thing.

 

Ummmmm... nothing?

well, nothing that I couldn't have said in less than 25 words!

 

I'm gonna try and re-phrase some of what has already been stated, as I understand it:

OUTDOOR RESET

Will reset the boiler temperature based on outdoor temperature, ONLY. It knows NOTHING of the indoor temps, or heat loss of the building.

INDOOR RESET

Will reset the boiler temperature based on the actual heat load on the building. It does this by monitoring DEMAND from the thermostat. The thermostat will only call for heat if the building needs it, it alone knows when the building needs heat. It knows , and can tell a control that it is losing heat FASTER on a cloudy, windy day, or if it's retaining heat better on a sunny, calm day, and adjust the temperature of the boiler with a goal toward near constant circulation. A simple control that can monitor the activity of the thermostat IMHO is far better than something you need a degree from an institute to understand.

Other thoughts

CONSTANT circulation might be the absolute ideal... but, I'd be willing to bet that with something like 60-70% circulation, occupants would never feel the difference in actual comfort. Why not save the electricity in this case?

The more I think about it, the more exquisite this idea looks!

Yes, the Tek with the indoor sensor I'm sure is very close to the ideal... but what trade-offs are REALLY being made by going to a simpler control, if the end result is the same?

 

In my experience, nothing. Like Trooper said. I ran a season with only outdoor reset, then added the indoor sensor. Did not change any parameters.

Wham-o. The heating curve was completely abandoned. The supply temperature, firing cycles, etc. are tuned completely to the heat loss of the moment. The result is an extraordinarily constant indoor temperature, and complete responsiveness to building behavior.

Consider the following outdoor temperatures and conditions, each of which will have a different heat loss and thus supply temperature requirement.

Sunny and 40F.
Sunny, 40F and windy.
Dark, 40F and windy.
Dark, 40F and windy and a houseful of people (~400 BTU/hr each).

The control adjusts the supply temperature to all of that. It's functionally indoor reset. It probably does still look at the outdoor temp to see what the trends are (i.e., what might happen to the load in a couple hours).

The PID logic that drives it isn't perfect, but it's pretty darn good.

 

Well, INDOOR reset also covers the Beckett Heat Manager and the IntelliCon:

HeatManager_Tech_Bulletin.pdf

The HeatManager adjusts the burner firing pattern to accurately match the boiler output to the home’s heat load (also referred to as heat loss) at that moment.

UntelliCon-HWplus.pdf

IntelliCon-HW+ saves energy by adjusting the burner run pattern to match the system’s “heat load.”

So the ExqHeat isn't alone in this category.

The ExqHeat takes hours to readjust to the indoor heat loss. From slide 38 of the PPT:

Period of analysis = 60 minutes

So expect a long recovery if there is a lot of visitors coming and going on a cold day. Or if a recovery from set back is required.


As far as constant circulation and electricity costs. Gravity works wonders without costing a penny. The new ECM motors reduce electrical costs substantially. Gravity being the better deal as it slows to a stop as the boiler temperature drops to ambient. This also prevents the heat already in the house from being pumped to the chimney port.

And no need for the controller to run the circ 70% of the time.

Lets get back to how this thread started. First post:

"If you think about it an Outdoor boiler reset controller uses a great 30 year old technology which was ok when oil was cheap, like .28 cents a gallon. If folks want to get their money's worth from that 3.25 gallon they should think about a controller that gives comfort first at the least expense for gas or oil. This can only be achieved from an indoor reset technology."

Lets not promote another method, lets TRASH a well known method of saving energy.

Sorry, ODR is known to save energy. Whether it is 28 cents/gallon (when no one used ODR), to when it now costs $x.xx (pick what ever cost it is to you) while ODR STILL saves energy. And provides comfort.


Then we get more ridiculous statements such as:

" 07-28-09, 06:32 AM
Exqheat

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 19
Indoor reset

First the delay between the change in outdoor temperature and the heat loss effect is several hours. That is unless you live in Florida where the buildings are made of paper mache."

Houses in Fl made of paper mache? You are kidding me right? Not only will a flimsy house in FL last less then a year (Hurricanes anyone?). But they also require insulation from the heat. They all require A/C to be livable.

Which was followed up by:

" 08-04-09, 07:02 AM
Exqheat

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 19
Indoor
The argument for indoor is basically that the outdoor reset changes the temperature of the boiler hours before it is needed. So the boiler will be over temp, which makes the thermostat satisfy early, leaving a lower circulation rate, making comfort less well distributed, and standby loss higher."

Uh, excuse me. But the outdoor temperature doesn't change that rapidly. Another red herring.

And this one takes the cake:

" Old 08-05-09, 10:28 AM
Exqheat Exqheat is offline
Member

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 19
where is the data

Most are conservation that was corrected by automating the control process to .05 degree boiler replacement temperature."

Flat out stating that this ExqHeat unit will control the boiler temperature to within 0.05 degree? Please, at 130 F that is within .00038 percent tolerance. You couldn't even MEASURE the boiler temperature to that accuracy let alone control it.

"Wisdom is knowing what you don't know and having the courage to ask a question. The first part is most difficult. The second part is more difficult."

If you want to be successful with your product. Stop bashing the others. Promote the better sides of yours. Otherwise you will still be fighting a losing battle.

Al.

{edit: xiphias, I was typing as you hit reply. My post is not in reaction to yours. Thanks. }

 

"The HeatManager adjusts the burner firing pattern to accurately match the boiler output to the home’s heat load (also referred to as heat loss) at that moment."

How? By adding to the differential? I cannot understand how the radiation changes with the temperature in the room. I could see where increased thermostat call could reduce return temps. But supply temps are still at high limit. So how does it really know the room temps?

"The ExqHeat takes hours to readjust to the indoor heat loss. From slide 38 of the PPT."

I'll have to look at slide 38 again. Misread I am sure. Most folks turn back thermostats 3-5 degrees. When they wake up they turn it back on. The recovery is at lower temps, but takes tops 1/2 hour. If you shut it down to 55 the proportion adjustment will raise limit temperature much higher to catch up. On programmables folks will set up recovery for one hour before comfort requirement. If you compare the savings at lower temps with the need to setback, most don't bother except for onoccupied periods during the daytime when at work. They expect some recovery time. The real challenge is recovery during spring and fall when going from day to night. This is when you need to pick up at start up temps. This occurrs when the thermostat has been inactive for more than one hour.

"So expect a long recovery if there is a lot of visitors coming and going on a cold day. Or if a recovery from set back is required"

One would think that, but the comming and going will show up at the thermostat. Remember if you have an ideal demand ratio of 70%, that leaves 30% additional circulation available withing any hour. Now if the place is a bus terminal the thermostat activity is going to be high indicating a need to keep a higher limit temp. I do have to recommend to you that Exqheat does have difficulty meeting the extrodinary demands of hurricanes and tornadoes. Most customers in those circumstances are usually preocupied with other concerns, like power failures and structural issues.

"And no need for the controller to run the circ 70% of the time."

It is advisable if you want maximum withdrawl of energy from the boiler by stiring the pot. It also makes BTU's available for the maximum exposure to the radiant fins. The comfort in McMansions increqsed circulation is most helpful for those long twisty runs that are under piped. It makes the temperatures at the radiators more precise, and make hydro air much smoother and temperature steady. Lower temps make the circulation longer avoiding air stratification, reduces cold air blasts, and hot air blasts. This is especially a problem when you combine hydro air with radiant. Unless you can get those hydro air temps down, it is not comfortable.

"Flat out stating that this ExqHeat unit will control the boiler temperature to within 0.05 degree? Please, at 130 F that is within .00038 percent tolerance. You couldn't even MEASURE the boiler temperature to that accuracy let alone control it."

You need to look at the data pages . The changes are very subtle. When you are analysing thermostat activity every second that is 3600 seconds per hour. The actual call history every second is going to change every hour. ( length of time is changable) The temperature change factor is often very small from hour to hour. You must remember that the actual fire time can change if the thermostat is calling more within the hour. The thermostat is still going to act on its' own, so it can call in any hour up to 100% of the time. This will increase the fire time to maintain the range called for in the high limit calculation. There is plenty of capacity to meet the current need. The precision simply indicates the accuracy of the range needed to heat the house most comfortably and at least expense. As for electricity waste. I realize that is the most popular area of discussion, mostly because the rest of the area is well known. So yes the comfort does come at the cost of additional electrical expense for pump on time. I was told by a pump factory rep that you could probably get away with 30% circulation to evenly distribute the comfort. But I choose the higher rate to get the heat out of the pipes and boiler into the radiation.

"If you want to be successful with your product. Stop bashing the others. Promote the better sides of yours. Otherwise you will still be fighting a losing battle."

I appologize for stepping on your propriatary territory of bashing. I'll try not to do what I did not do. In case you are not aware of it, we have a need to make the best improvements we can to reduce energy use, reduce greenhouse gasses, save money yet keep folks comfortable. That is the mission at Exqheat and it is done every day the equipment is installed. That's a comforting thought. The ODR has been around for many years, and was not all that successful. Tekmar has done the best job to try to make it work. Indoor reset is all that is needed, so we thought we would put it out there. There are no mysterious algorthims, unknown formulas and the data is from the space to the plant, be it AC, Hot water, Steam, Geo thermal, Solar, or heat pumps. BTU's are BTU's.

It has been a tradition in the USA to compare competitive equipment so folks can make an informed decision. Folks compare the facts, apply their common sense and make a decision. We feel once they look at the facts, and apply their common sense they will find a preference to automatic real time indoor reset technology as a more accurate and intelligent conclusion. In as much as the appications are between 40 and 70 million applications of the BEST technology available, we should make such a comparison. Why do it less than right for the next 30 years. Because all our buddies do not do it now?

By the way, could anyone answer how Tekmar does it from inside ignoring the outdoor curve. Why the Outdoor?

Thank you for your interest.

 

You need to ask Beckett about it. I quoted directly from their literature to show that it was another form of indoor reset.


The update rate of the boiler water temperature is every hour. This is directly from your information. And it is updated based on that past hour calls for heat from the thermostat.


Taken completely out of context. That statement was in regards to a gravity system to do the continuous circulation. In this case the circulator runs during a call for heat. When the call ends gravity takes over.

I also mentioned ECM motors which greatly reduces the use of electricity. And to which the speed can be changed to control the rate of circulation. Are you up to data with the latest and greatest in the industry?

What data? You already stated that there isn't any, yet. You claimed that the boiler temperature can be controlled to 5/100's of a degree. I claim that you can't and would even have a difficult time MEASURING the temperature to that accuracy. So if it can't be measured to that accuracy, how can you verify that it is being controlled to that accuracy.

No, you took that honor in your opening post. If you want to sell something, to get the other persons ear, you can't bash a product that is known to work.

ODR works, and folks know that. So by stating that it is old and doesn't work, folks are going to walk away from you.

Recall at the same time that oil fired burners have been around for 90 some years. So using "30 year old technology" ODR is new compared to how long oil has been around.

Try something along the lines of "We have a new product for boiler control. It senses how often your house needs heat and adjusts to save you oil (gas, electricity, ...). When the house doesn't need as much heat as in cool Fall days the boiler doesn't get as hot. It runs less which saves fuel."

"It is easy to install and doesn't need to be adjusted. Just install it and forget it. That is until you see the lower fuel bills. And then you smile thinking about what a good idea it was to have the Exquiste Heat installed."

Now about newer technology. I'd like to get one (or two or three) of the glass encapsulated plutonium pucks that NASA uses on their deep space probes. Now that would beat the heck out of all the stuff we talk about here.

Al.

 

This thread is starting to go where I was afraid it would... into the territory of bashing each other... c'mon guys, don't make me come up there!

Please try to keep it civil.

 

I can't answer, but have some thoughts. I don't know if the Tek's have ALWAYS had the ability to sense indoor temps or not. Suspecting that they have not, my guess would be that it was a later enhancement to the product. When there is an indoor sensor, the unit obviously disregards the outdoor, and the programmed heating curve in favor of the indoor. Using an indoor sensor has the distinction of being an ANALOG feedback to the system control. It would seem that the outdoor sensor is a 'legacy feature' of the control.

Exqheat is using DIGITAL feedback, ONE or ZERO, in a sense, a form of pulse width feedback. Short ON pulse, long OFF pulse means lower temps in the boiler. As the ON pulses get longer, and the OFF pulses shorter, the boiler temp is increased.

There is a link to the full patent application on the website, and there's lots of technical mumbo-jumbo there, including some of the algorithms that are used in determining the parameters the EXQ uses. I would encourage reading it if one wanted a better understanding of how the control operates.

As for the heat manager and the Intell... it does NOT sense the room temperature. In it's basic form, there is just a sensor on the supply out of the boiler. If you have an indirect, there is also a sensor on that zone. I've said it before, and will say it again, the HM and IC measure the RATE OF CHANGE of the supply temperature out of the boiler, AFTER the boiler hits high limit, and ONLY when there is a call for heat. If it senses that the water is cooling faster than it thinks it should, it ASSUMES that there is a higher load on the system, and responds by decreasing the differential. If the temp drops more slowly, it ASSUMES that the load is less, and widens the differential. That's ALL that it does.

Personally, I do not believe that the rate of change of the supply temp of the boiler is a reasonable method of determining the load on the system, thus won't even consider putting the HM or the IC in the same class as any control that takes actual FEEDBACK from the home and adjusts the TEMPERATURE of the boiler.

 

At the very least Tekmar will use the outdoor sensor in conjuntion with an analog indoor feedback for WWSD function. At the very least.

I suspect the will still use it as a baseline to work from, and possibly something to return to once what ever caused the indoor temp to vary from what was calculated using the reset curve.

Rate of change is a good indication of building load, as the delta t will tell you the btu being delivered. This will work in the system loop.
Rate of change of the boiler loop will simply report the ratio of available BTU (from boiler) to the load BTU (absorbed by the system.

Both can be somewhat useful, the later not so much unless you trying to report system efficencys, and energy usage.

Outdoor reset, with a thermostat as the indoor feedback makes the most sense to me. In a cost of installation, and general saving point of view, I would find it hard to beat.

Add all these fancy algorithms, and rates of change, etc. I can't see it delivering that much more efficiency than what simple ODR and a thermostat can deliver. They may however deliver so added comfort to the system.

 

So the discussion comes back to how to most efficiently deliver comfort. The simplest and the least fuel using.

Now that there is difficulty understanding how the hybrids work, we can use a simple indoor reset, without the need to correct an outdoor sensor curve which is now unecessary, and proven worth going around, even by those that make them.

The expense is reduced by not having to use fancy thermostats or an outside sensor at all. This reduces materials and installation time.

In as much as a long term high impact universal technology is being sought, at no small expense, how is it that the government cannot find a few bucks out of $780 billion to study the merits of these technologies and decide the preferreed route to the future for 144,000,000 homeowners in America. Just think what applications await in the Industrial and Commercial markets.

Something should be done for those buildings and homes that are not going to be torn apart for new equipment. A simple indoor reset can be applied to all of them as a cheap retrofit that will carry them over to the next renovation and can be used to run the new equipment.

It must be that someone out there does not want a cheap easy cure to the heating fuel energy crisis. Perhaps the engineers would like a cheap and easy cure. Or perhaps the heating "professionals". Or perhaps the oil companies could pick up on this way to save fuel, money and the environment.

I must have been a terrrible experience for the discoverers of medical advances in vaccines and aticeptics, when the doctors saw thay would have to sacrifice some $ Kaching $ Kaching for these advances. It woud seem the heating professioanals are suffering the same fear.

My belief is we should be applying this technology to every customers system, new or old, to do our part to save the environment and conserve on an ever decreasing supply of fuel.

 

I moved your post to it's own thread, "Is there a better use for $1000 ? " in case you come looking for it! Beer 4U2