Hello all, I've been trying to read up on a lot of good posts here, and I am hoping that you all can help guide me in the right direction. Boiler replacement is big $$$; I know something about plumbing and having a bunch of good friends to help, so I'd like to size and replace what I have (properly) on my own.

I live in North NJ, standard early 60's bi-level (approx 2000sq ft, 24'x40' house with 2' overhang 2nd floor) built on slab. I measured 144 linear feet of existing baseboard heaters. 2 zone heating (upstairs & downstairs). Insulation I would say is fair, probably r10 (if I'm lucky) in the walls and probably around R18 in attic. The walls I'm upgrading as I renovate, and the attic I can add to this year.

I don't need to get super fancy ... looks like my existing boiler is shot and I need a suitable replacement. I don't plan on adding anything here, but perhaps I may add another 15' of baseboard and a 3rd zone in the existing in-house garage some years down the road.

I have an old peerless oil boiler serial JOX-36185 that is rated at 122,600 btu/hr on the front. Don't know how old, but the burner is 'peerless' branded. Burner and controls look OK, but the whole thing is rusty and the last service guy that came over was hesitant to touch anything for breaking up the cover plate bolts (claimed the cover plate was warped). Current vent pipe is 7", and I believe the chimney is 8"sq (inside) by approx 16ft high (2 stories + roof). For the most part, this old boiler seemed to heat the house adequately (but better insulation will probably help).

I also have a 50gal electric hot water heater. I'm planning to keep this configuration unless someone can tell me something better.

For the most part, sticking with a peerless boiler for me should be fine unless there is a much better unit available at comparable cost (but see gotchas below).

So, the usual questions:
1) how does the boiler label of 122600 btu equate to manufacturer's numbers? is that input MBH, Heating capacity, or net rating?
2) what BTU to replace with. I'm sure this requires a heat-loss estimate which I haven't done yet but if you have suggestions let me know
3) which boiler. I'm considering peerless EC, WBV, or maybe the direct-vent WV (or any other comparable vendor, but see below first). Thus far I'm thinking the ec-03 at the 140/121/105 rating as this would allow me to go up or down in rating if adjustment is necessary
4) which burner? Beckett, Carlin, or Reillo? (or is that a religious question
5) Keep hot-water heater or get rid of in in favor of tankless-coil
6) Anything I need to consider with my chimney with this replacment?

I am very space constrained and would rather not move this boiler to a different location. The original boiler is about 22.5" wide nested in a space 23.5" wide sandwiched between the masonry chimney and my primary load bearing wall. The peerless WV claims 0" clearance left/right/back so it may be my only option. Otherwise, I may be able to re-build that section of load bearing wall with a header and steel studs in order to get the minimum 2" right/left from combustibles that the ec and wbv require. I haven't found any boilers with such tight "minimum" clearances. Any advice on that would be appreciated as well.

Thanks in advance! I'm sure I didn't provide enough information, so let me know what else might help.

-- James

 

I can't give you anything on specific boilers but I can tell you that the very first thing is for you to do (or have done) a heat loss calculation. A full energy audit including a blower door test may be the best money you can spend in regard to this project as it will tell you quite closely what your heating requirements are (BTU-wise) and where you should be spending limited funds in making your home more energy efficient.

If your system is typical the boiler is probably at least 50% oversized in comparison with the actual heat loss. It may be even more oversized than that if any energy conservation projects have been done since the house was built. It is always best to decrease the heat loss before installing a new boiler.

The amount (length) of installed heat emitters (baseboard convectors) is almost meaningless in sizing the new boiler. If you have more baseboard length than required with 180 degree water circulating then you will be able to "dial down" the temperature of the circulating water and that will save money and probably give you added comfort.

You can roughly determine if you have sufficient heat emitters by remembering how often the circulator pump would start and how long it would run during the coldest weather. Ideally you want the circulator to run constantly in the coldest weather and also have the boiler firing almost constantly during the same weather. If your circulator runs for only a few minutes with fairly long off periods it means that you can probably turn down the temperature setting on the boiler and maybe even have superior comfort.

One thing that I, and just about every one of the "regulars" here will stress is do NOT get a tankless coil for domestic water heating. In my opinion the only thing worse than a tankless coil for heating domestic water is an open kettle on a wood-burning kitchen range.

Your house being built in the '60s should already have a terra cotta liner so there shouldn't be any problems there but just to be safe an inspection and cleaning by a certified chimney sweep would not be a bad idea.

Post some pictures of your existing installation and I'm sure you will get quite a few comments.

 

Do the heat loss, or have it done. Your boiler is probably 2-3 times bigger than you need.

Look at the 3-pass oil boilers. Burnham MPO, Biasi B10, Peerless Pro. They are quite efficient and IMHO worth the investment.

Tankless coil is the least efficient way to heat domestic water. Go with an indirect water heater piped as its own zone off the boiler. Take a look at the Triangle Tube indirects (built in Jersey), also the HTP Superstor.

You have plenty of radiation (baseboard) and would benefit from an outdoor reset control. The tekmar 260 is a good one. The Taco PC-700 would also be good. It plugs into a zone valve or switching relay board, which you'd use for zoning.

 

Thanks for the tips. I'll try to do the heat-loss myself, but I'll be looking for a pro to do that for me to verify results.

As for capacity, only once have I ever experienced my boiler circulator pump being on full-time. That time, a zone valve failed causing the boiler/circulator to be on full time. On a cold day (mayby 20F), the house was over 85F inside. Beyond that, I believe that even on the coldest days, my boiler is firing maybe 10 minutes solid and circulator running for around maybe 12-15 min.

The peerless pro would be nice, but all the input/output is on the back of the unit and that would require some serious space & wall reconfiguration for me. Right now I have a 'nook' to work with which is basically 23.5" wide and about 28" deep, and only open in the front, meaning that if there is anything easy for me to do, it will require a boiler with top and front piping only. The pinnacle looks nice too, but I'm concerned about it being undersized, and the reconfiguration.

If anyone is looking at the pictures of the peerless boilers I reference here, the ec-03 looks like a modern day version of what I currently have.

A room reconfiguration for this might be necessary anyway -- I'll need to see what the local inspectors have to say about the permits.

I'll post some pics of my existing mess a little later today ... thanks all so far for your comments!

 

I did the on-line heat loss, and I must have done something seriously wrong because the figures were way too high. I'll see if I can find someone to do it for me.

Anyway I have some hi-res pics of my mess:
The whole setup
The base and
The flue

For the most part many of the parts shown look in reasonable shape, but the boiler has been weeping and rusting for years, black smoke comes out of the combustion peek hole, and soot seems to accumulate from out around the base of the burner. The last service guy told me the burner mounting plate was warped allowing soot to escape, and that the fastener bolts were rusted enough that he didn't want to break them trying.

As you can also see, this thing is stuffed in a nook, with the hot water heater conveniently in front of it. It seems to be very old, and I"m not sure it can be repaired. Replacement parts for a whole peerless boiler/burner/circulator replacement seem to be under $2000.

So any advice appreciated (see my other questions below). I'm confident I can do the necessary plumbing/electrical, but am not sure how much trouble I'll have with permits and sizing a suitable replacement.

But from one of the previous replies here, what would 'normal' operation for a boiler be? I would say that I usually keep the house around 63 in the winter and this boiler always seemed to keep up fine ... boiler would fire for around 5-10 min, circulate for around 10-12 min or so. I couldn't imagine trying to size this thing so that the coldest day would circulate and fire all of the time ... wouldn't that be considered undersized and use more electric/fuel then something that comfortably cycles on and off?

Thanks!

 

I don't know what on-line heat loss calculation you did but I suspect it was a quick and dirty one rather than a comprehensive one based on the ASHRAE manual J. A comprehensive heat loss calculation requires the measurement of all exterior walls along with exterior doors and windows. It takes into account construction styles and insulation along with desired indoor temperatures and historic outdoor temperatures. Often a person has to make an educated guess about the efficacy of any insulation and also the air infiltration factor. I would state that just gathering the necessary measurements in an average house would take between one and two hours.

That stated, most heat loss calculations come out overestimating the true heat loss of a home.

My criteria for designing a system is to do a heat loss using the lowest normally expected outside temperature and then another using the historical lowest temperature for the area most representative for where YOUR home is located. If the stated low temperature used in the design phase is for the big city 50 miles away it may not be representative for your home. Remember that at least 90% of the time you will NOT be experiencing the record low temperatures and you do NOT need (nor want) a system that has any extra capacity at the lowest temperature. Quite honestly, your boiler should fire continuously (along with circulator pump running) by the time the outside temperature hits that record low point. The result is that maybe your inside temperature will drop a degree or two (put on a sweater) but the rest of the time you will have a more efficient system.

I looked at the pictures and I'm going to be blunt. Whoever stuffed that boiler into that tiny space should be shot, and before being shot they need to be drawn and quartered. Just because something will physically fit in a space does not mean it should be installed in that space. There is no way to properly service and inspect that boiler and just changing the expansion tank would give a contortionist a fit. You're not going to like this but I would never put a new boiler back in such a tight little space, even a wall-hung boiler.

 

Look at the installation and cleaning/maintenance clearances for the Burnham MPO, Biasi B10, and the Peerless Pro. Reconfigure your boiler 'room' to meet those clearances. Then get that old pile of junk out of there and install something that will be easy to service.

 

Thanks for the advice guys.

The issue right now is not about what I like or not ... it's more a matter of having to correct this whole thing reasonably before the cold comes

The pictures presented are from my laundry room, which doesn't have much space to do anything but get in & out. The wall to the left of the boiler is the home's main load-bearing wall with a small garage on the other side.

So, one option I'm considering is to break out the load bearing wall with a header/beam, box a small section off the laundry room area and create a sort of closet that is accessible from the garage. With some luck I can make a more accessible boiler space with room for the heater as well. But, a lot of this is going to depend on what the local inspector says

I like the peerless pro, but I have a feeling right now that a top-flue boiler will be easier to work with here, so I'll take a look at the specs you recommend for those other boilers.

Do you guys have any recommendations on burners (Beckett, Carlin, Reillo or other?). I hear Beckett is more popular in my area but finicky to tune, with Reillo being a lot more expensive for no good reason (but I don't know anything about such opinions).

Thanks!

 

Definitely check with your inspector on that one. Example: we're not allowed to have any gas or oil burning unit in a garage unless it is a minimum of 18" above the floor. You know, that whole "cars gas tank leaks, boiler kicks in, house goes up in a small mushroom cloud" thing.

 

Hmm, yes that is a good point. Well, having the new closet entry from the garage would be nicer looking, but I could also consider bumping the wall out a few inches and leaving the opening in the laundry room. But that may limit the style of boiler I can use (likely top flue would be best then).

Or perhaps I can create a removable access panel on that wall in order to be able to get behind it .....

Anyway, there's a lot I need to plan out for this....

 

Some questions on boiler selection ...

First -- does the amount of water the boiler holds inside make much of a difference? I see some modern boilers (of the size I'm considering) hold as little as 4gal, while other hold as much at 14gal or more.

Second -- Based on local inspector input, a top-flue unit will likely be best for me. I'm considering peerless WBV-03 or EC-03 mainly for top-flue and flexibility of heating capacity based simply on nozzle change. Utica and Crown seem popular here as well, any suggestion on models with output between 75-140mbh?

Third -- I think Beckett burners are more popular where I am ... but are their any opinions on how these compare with Carlin and Reillo?

I'm still thinking about the peerless pro and burnham mpo, but the rear-flue makes installation a little troublesome for me.

Thanks!

 

I installed a Biasi B-10 in my house 2 years ago when I doubled the size of our rancher. The biasi has been great. The only thing I did not do was dial in the burner. For $49 our oil company came out and did it for us.


House is 2200 sq ft. Half the house is block and the other half is 2x6 walls with vaulted ceiilings, Low-e glass throughout entire house. R-60 in attic. Baseboard in original house and radiant underfloor in new part. I forget the exact BTU we are using as we had the oil company come out and put the lowest nozzle in the boiler but I think we are at 68,000 btu and even that is a little big. We used 410 gallons of oil last year.