Hi
I posted here a long time ago before I was ready to actually know what I was talking about, so I am gonna try again.

I have an old Pennco boiler hto water heat with baseboards. I bought this house as a foreclosure, and had the boiler inspected and was told everything was good to go. Well, after 1 winter here we found that the zones are not wired correctly and only the main floor zone actually calls for heat and the other 2 zones would not operate without that main zone making the call. I had one zone valve replaced at the same time since I was told it was a bad valve. The company I had to this work wanted 1800 to rewire the zones. I thought this was outrageous and decided we could live with it. Well, long story short I have a friend that thought we could do it since it really is not a complex wiring system....

Well, now here I am with a "mostly" wired boiler and no clue how to make it work correctly. I think the new zone valve is our stumbling block. We rewired everything to follow a schematic on the old valve, but we have 6 terminals on the old and only 5 on the new Honeywell and no of the letters on the terminals are the same. We did get the valve to open when calling for heat, but it clicks constantly and the transformer got really hot and smoked a little so I know we have something wrong, I am just not sure how to fix it, and I really don't want to spend 1800 to have the plumbers back out here. i don't know if I should trust them anyway since they were not even sure how to wire the new zone valve they put in. Of course they blamed that on the wiring that was already in place, but we had a few bad interactions with this company but that's a totally different story. I have pics of everything and drew a "rough" copy of the schematic inside the old valves.


I am not sure how to add the pics, or if the above link works.

 

Sorry I cant help you with the wiring problem, but i can help you get pics up here. You have to start an account with Photobucket (its free) and post the link to it here in the forum. I had to do this yesterday and it was rather easy. I just joined the other day and have gotten lots of help. Im sure someone will be able to help you.

 

In addition to the pics, you should tell us brand/model of the zone valves, the aquastat control on the boiler, etc ... the more info the better. We may be able to see some of this in the pics, but it's best to follow with an equipment list.

 

Thanks for the replies.

The old zones just say Thrush No. 91 on them and I can not find a model number. The new valve is a Honeywell V438 I think, the sticker was damaged during installation and is difficult to read. As far as the aquastat, I am not sure about that either, and I don't how to identify it. I can tell you that there are 3 zones and it seems to be a 3 wire system and the from what I can tell the new stuff is 2 wire.

I hope these pics help and if there is a way to tell me what I else you need and maybe how to find it on this boiler I will add it. Thanks you so much for any help you can offer, I am lost and the wife will not be happy if we don't have heat soon!

It looks like the photos did not work again. I searched the forum for directions but I can't seem to locate one. I created the photobucket, and clicked where it says attach image above, then it asks for the URL on here but it just keeps showing the box with the "x" in it.

Pictures by louther1 - Photobucket

[Easiest way is to use the URL tag, and post the link to the album, then we can look at the pics from there... I fixed - NJT]

 

Just to clear things up a bit more, I realized I never told you what we did with the wiring. Using the schematic (hand drawing in post below) from the original zone valve, we hooked up each valve as it shows. As you might be able to see in the pictures, whoever wired this thing used green and black wire for everything which only adds to my confusion.

Using the schematic we hooked up the first zone (old Thrush No.91) valve and tested it, it worked. Then we hooked up the 2nd old valve and it worked. Now I should add we did not let these run very long, assuming we were on the right track.

Then came the new Honeywell valve (I believe it is model# V8043F1036) that was installed, and it does not have the same configuration obviously, so I looked online for a wiring diagram but could not find one that fit my situation. Looking at the wires inside the valve we noticed that they were similar to the old valves. We tried to wire it based on wire color but I am sure this is wrong somehow. We did get the boiler to fire with the wiring we have, but the valve was clicking constantly and when we would turn the thermostat off the valve stayed open and the boiler continued to run. While trying to troubleshoot, we let the boiler run longer than when testing out the other zone valves, and that's when we noticed the transformer smoking.

The other part that is throwing me off is that we wired each valve to go into the transformer and the "control" (I am not sure what the name if this controller is, it may be the aquastat? or burner relay, it hink it is the burner relay since there is a switch in this box that clicks when there is a call for heat and the boiler fires) box under the transformer, there are 3 wires going into the "T" and "TV" terminals on the "control" box, 1 black and one green from each zone valve. On the old zone valve it starts from the number 1&2 terminals (we did this based on the schmatic in the zone valve cover). There are also 2 wires one green and one black going to the box labled transfomer on top of this "control" box. Those originate at the 2&3 terminals on the old zone valves. Since the transformer box started smoking when we let the boiler run after hooking up the Honeywell zone valve I can only assume that there is something wired incorrectly at that zone valve, or that we have wired too many wires to either the transformer or the "control" box. Where I have the real problem is knowing what wires to hook up to the new zone valves, the old ones were easy, 3 in 3 out and numbered. This honeywell uses TH-TR, TH, and TR, then there is the end switch. I assume this end switch are the same as the 1,2,3 on the old valves and used to wire the valves in a series but I am not sure.

In the end I would like to just get this boiler working, I have thought about replacing the thermostats and being able to use the 2 wire system, but I am not sure how that would work with the old valves. Maybe I just need to call another heating guy out here and replace the 2 remaining zone valves with new Honeywells and try to snake new wires and add new thermostats. I was trying to avoid this, but the more I try to work on this I am really getting nowhere fast!

Sorry for the long post and if you can help I appreciate it. Since it's almost October I need to do something quick since it's Ohio and cold weather is right around the corner, unfortunately!

 

I have to confess that I haven't digested all that you've written yet... I did look at the pics, and they aren't quite what I need...

The 'box under the transformer' on the boiler is your boiler's AQUASTAT control.

In the wiring diagram you drew, is the 'round thing' with the B, R, W, wires on it the thermostat?

Are you trying to use another three wire thermostat with the new Honeywell valve?

The close-ups of the valves, are out of focus, and not well lighted. Does your camera have a "MACRO" mode on it that allows getting better close-ups?

I can't find anything on the Thrush valves on the net, and I'm not familiar with them. I need to see INSIDE the valves, thus the close-ups... or, if you can describe how they are wired, i.e. to what terminals do the two motor wires go?
to what terminals do the endswitch go?

Those valves are probably 'power open', and 'power closed', thus the three wire thermostat, while the Honeywell is a 'power open', and a spring return close.

Here's what I think is happening... when you wired up the Honeywell valve, you inadvertently wired the endswitch so that when it closes, it's shorting out the 24 V transformer. Once the transformer is shorted, the voltage drops, the valve starts to close, the switch opens, the voltage comes back, the switch closes, etc... etc... and that would explain why the valve is 'clicking'.

You need to get to a 'known place', so take the wires from the Honeywell off, and drop back to just the two Thrush valves, and verify that it all still works properly.

Then, we'll go from there...

 

I wonder how similar the 91's are to the White-Rogers?

I did this drawing a while back for a similar situation, two 3 wire t'stats, and a honeywell on an indirect water heater. Think of the indirect as your third zone... and the Y G to the boiler is your T and TV ... I'm not saying this is what you need to do, but it may be VERY similar.

 

Yes that's the stat.

All I have are 3 wire stats. That is what I am using. I was going to switch them all (3) over to digital programmable but I am not sure if I can do that, I have one for my A/C but none of the letters in the old stats corelate to the letters in the programmable.

See, this is where I am not clear, I have 2 green wires and 1 black so it is not easy to tell. I am not sure which numbers control what on the valves either, I just followed the one that was already wired and tried to duplicate it, and switched the green wires around until it worked. I can't find any info anywhere on those valves either.
The wires inside are like this:
Yellow to #6
Orange to #3
Red to #1
Brown 2,4&5 2&5 have a jumper running from 2to5 or 5to2 however you wanna look at it.
The way i have it wired is one green from stat to 4, and one green to 6, black to 5.
Then following the schmatic,
1 goes to next zone valve and to T on aquastat
2 goes to next zone valve and to TV on aquastat as well as to transformer
3 goes to transformer and to the next zone valve

I am not sure, but I can tell you that I hear them making noise on the call for heat and when the call ends, so you are probably right.

That makes sense. One of the many problems I have is figuring out how the end switch terminals corelate to the numbers on my old valves, and which terminals to use on the new valve when wiring everything up.

I have done that, and the garage zone, and the Main floor zone are working just fine.
I guess a question would be do these valve HAVE to be wired in a series? If the 2 zones are working now without the 3rd zone wire in, could I just wire the 3rd (new valve) zone independent from the other 2? In my mind that should work, and since there are 3 independent stats, they would make the calls for heat. I guess maybe there is a reason they are all wired together, but I don't know if it has to be that way.
On a sidenote, I never really paid attention to the transformer before, but I noticed when I did this, that the transformer did heat up, it didn't start smoking again, but did get warm to the touch, I couldn't let the boiler continue to run since it was warm and muggy here yesterday, so I don't know if it would've continue to warm up and smoke or not.

More Pics:
Here is a link to the album:
Zone Valve Closeups pictures by louther1 - Photobucket


One of the pictures shows the aquastat with terminals, and the transformer above to the left in pic) with the wires to it. I think maybe this should only be 1 wire to each terminal? Maybe that is why the valves are wired in a series. Not sure...

 

OK... I think I got enough to go with... I'm gonna draw up a schematic (actually modify the one I posted) that I think will work.

You can use the 3 wire thermostat for the 8043, but you only need TWO of the wires. You need to determine which two to use... to do this, you can either do 'trial and error', or use a multimeter.

On a three wire t'stat, ONE of the wires is COMMON, another will MAKE contact on a call for heat, at the same time, the third will BREAK. It's called a SPDT (Single Pole Double Throw) switch. So, you need to find the pair that MAKES contact when you turn the t'stat up, calling for heat. Tape the third one up, you don't need it (on the Honeywell valve).

Some of the digital thermostats will work as 3 wire units... I don't remember which ones off hand will, but a bit of research will find that info... I think the Honeywell VisionPro does, but not certain.

Gimmee an hour or so...

 

Here's what I think you need to do...



Note the jumper from one of the endswitch to the TR terminal.

Also note that the TH-TR terminal is simply a 'tie point' that makes it convenient and neater to wire up... there is no internal connection inside the 8043 valve.

I have drawn out the 'schematic' of the 3 wire t'stat to illustrate the SPDT switch I mentioned earlier. One position opens the thrush valves, the other closes, because they are power closed.

The 8043 being a spring closed doesn't require the other position, that's why we can just tape it up.

Ignore the 4,5,6 on the t'stat conx on the old valves, and the terminal 'orientation'... and note that I swapped numbers 1 and 3 from the previous drawing to conform to the drawing that you posted.

I just arbitrarily stuck the T and TV on the drawing... and I think you have them opposite... don't worry about that, doesn't make any difference. Leave as-is...

To 'others' viewing... if you see a mistake, please point it out!

 

Trooper, you have been an awesome help and I am going to try exactly what you drew up tomorrow as soon as work is over and I will post to let you know what happens.Beer 4U2

I will research a thermostat that will work with a 3 wire system, and the zone with new valve is not an issue because I will not be using the 3rd wire, makes that one easy.

 

To all who replied and especially NJ Trooper thank you very much! Your wiring diagram seems to have worked perfectly. I am testing it now and all 3 zones are working independently. The transformer seems to be warm to the touch, but I am assuming that is normal, it's not smoking and no bad smells either. Thanks so much.

I have a couple other questions, these should be much easier I believe. There is an expansion tank (amtrol) on the boiler that says it should be at 12 psi, I used a tire gauge to check it and it is low, should that just get some air added with a tire pump?
Also, I don't know if you noticed in the pictures the gauge for water temp and pressure is stuck, I assume I need to replace that. (Not sure how vital this is to the operation, but it came with one so I assume it is necessary) When I loosened it, water started to spray out. Will I need to drain the entire system to remove it and go to a supplier for a new one?

This might be a broad question, but is there anything else I should maybe do to this thing to get good heat all winter without any major problems?

Thanks!