Questions on an old Burnham Holiday boiler

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Old 10-19-09, 07:50 AM
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Questions on an old Burnham Holiday boiler

Greetings!
Recently bought a house with this old boiler installed. Got it fired up and working, but one question on its wiring...
When it demands heat, it fires and circulator kicks on at high limit (was at 190, reset to 180) and kicks off at low limit (was at 120, now at 155).
The problem is, the pump continues to run when the thermostat says it doesn't need heat, until it reaches the low limit. By then the house is overly warm. Is this the norm for this? Shouldn't it stop with the thermostat? It has a Honeywell Aquastat and gas controls.

Next question is on the piping...
This is plumbed with 1 1/2 copper continuous loop with 9 different loops tee'd off and returned to this loop. When I upgrade to a new boiler, would I be able to keep this, or would I have to re-plumb to multiple loop/zones off a manifold?
 
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Old 10-19-09, 04:03 PM
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Your description doesn't sound like it's working correctly... what model is the aquastat?

Are there any other controls on the boiler in addition to the aquastat?

Does this boiler also supply domestic hot water to the home?

The system you describe sounds like you have what is called a 'monoflo' system, and if it's properly designed and in good shape, there's no reason to have to change that when you get a new boiler.
 
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Old 10-19-09, 05:52 PM
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Thanks for replying. The model is L4062B / HG40.
I don't have any wiring diagrams on how it's supposed to be, but the thermostat is wired to the aquastat, another with runs from this to the gas control valve, and another set of terms on the GCV goes to the transformer. No other controls...
Like I said, the pump will not start until system temp reaches the high limit.

No hot water tank...

I wasn't sure if the new boilers or pumps were compatible with the monoflow. it currently has a large red B & G pump.
 
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Old 10-24-09, 05:01 AM
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ttt ??? Any help on this?
 
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Old 10-24-09, 08:43 AM
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You will need to consider the fact that the system is a monoflo when you replace the boiler and size the replacement pump accordingly. You don't want a 'lazy' flow in the main pipe in order to get the monoflo tees to do what they are supposed to do. The new boiler will probably come with a 007, and that may, or may not, do the job.

Honeywell is giving me a hard time about downloading the data sheets on your 4062 ... it's obsolete, and probably if it needs to be replaced it would be the L4081B...

There may be a wiring issue, or that 4062 may be defective...

I'll look to see if I can find a wiring diagram on the Holiday. Maybe that will give some clues. Isn't there a diagram on the inside of the burner somewhere?
 
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Old 10-28-09, 08:08 PM
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No diagrams - unit is very rough. Basement is dirt floor and damp...

Good point on the pump/flow rate. It might be worth it to scrap out the copper and seperate into zones and just pex everything.
 
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Old 10-29-09, 02:51 PM
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I would think that it's a whole heckuva lot less work to properly size the circulator than it is to rip out and repipe the whole system! There's absolutely nothing wrong with a properly designed monoflo setup...

Are there any other controls on the boiler, such as relays, etc?

If you have a digi camera, it would probably be helpful to see some pics of the wiring, etc... you can set up a free account at Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket to upload the photos, and then drop a link here for us to view.

Since I'm gonna be looking at wiring, please make sure there's enough light, and the pics are in focus...
 
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Old 10-30-09, 04:09 AM
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Like Trooper said, a good monoflow system shouldn't be trashed. Keep it. (But... if you were to trash it, pipe it as reverse return or something useful, not simple series.)

Once you get the wiring thing figured out, if you need a new circulator, chances are the venerable 007 would be fine. The big old 3-piece residential circs typically have performance curves not terribly different. If anything the 007 would move a bit more water. Got a model# for the B&G?
 
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Old 10-30-09, 05:03 AM
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Thanks guys, will try to get time for pix/info this weekend.

Reason for thinking of scrapping out the monoflow is its 3 floors and no flow controls on the baseboards. Zoning would make more sense and I do have easy access to run t-stat wiring to the upper floors. Having not experienced a winter yet in the house, I don't know how "balanced" it would be...

Also there are 2 vent free fireplaces on the first floor dining room and living room (where the t-stat is) that i would like to be utilizing as the efficiency of the 30+ yr old boiler would not be too great.
 
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Old 10-30-09, 04:12 PM
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Zoning would make more sense
Don't be so sure... it might, but it might not... and you might also be able to zone floor by floor and keep the monoflo. Are the supply and return to each floor separate at the boiler? (pics coming!)

Having not experienced a winter yet in the house, I don't know how "balanced" it would be...
I would absolutely live with the system for at least one winter before deciding to 'rip it out' and start over. You might just find it's well designed and comfortable! Plus, November is NOT the time to be installing heating systems!

fireplaces on the first floor dining room and living room (where the t-stat is)
This would/could be a problem. Of course if you heat the room with the t'stat in it, the rest of the house is gonna go cold. Move the thermostat?

From what I can see the L4081B would be an appropriate replacement for the 4062...
 
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Old 11-15-09, 08:33 PM
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T-stat wires go to the aquastat - red to one term.
Wires from aquastat to gas ctrl - red from other term, with the white tied to the white from t-stat.
Wires from gas ctrl to 24V supply xfrmr.

Are the supply and return to each floor separate at the boiler?
Not sure what you're asking - the monoflo is one wrap around the basement. All rooms are separate loops off of this loop.
 

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Old 11-16-09, 05:14 PM
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Wow... 1963! 36 years ain't a bad run for a piece of equipment!

The wiring 'looks' OK...

Without being there to look it over, all I can really say is that from your description of the problem, that the aquastat is somehow whacked... your pump should theoretically be running whenever the water is above the LOW setting (which you could in fact reduce a bit more if you don't make DHW with this system, and might save some fuel, see if anything changes by lowering the LOW down to 120 or so...)

The pump should definitely NOT be waiting until the burner shuts off on high limit to run...

I don't know if this is even physically possible, or what the effect would be on the control... but, is it remotely possible that the two 'hands' are somehow 'crossed over' each other? In other words, the one that's pointing at 140 is really the HIGH needle, and vice versa? This is a far-fetched idea, I admit, but wanted to toss it out there, just in case.
 
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Old 11-17-09, 06:08 AM
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Wow... 1963! 36 years ain't a bad run for a piece of equipment!
So, 46 years is even better?
is it remotely possible that the two 'hands' are somehow 'crossed over' each other? In other words, the one that's pointing at 140 is really the HIGH needle, and vice versa?
Not likely, as what seems to be happening is the left side contacts break at high limit and shut off the GCV (I have not verified that electrically). The way it is wired, the t-stat has no control over the pump, and I thought it should. Maybe that is normal for the simple logic of that era...
your pump should theoretically be running whenever the water is above the LOW setting
I could see that there should be some overlap, as if it did turn on at low limit, the onrush of cool input water would then shut it off as it went below the low limit temp (assuming why it says to have min. 20deg overlap).
see if anything changes by lowering the LOW down to 120 or so...
That was the initial issue with the pump running too long and overheating the house, and is why I raised it. I guess as the temps get colder, it would be less of an issue.
 
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Old 11-17-09, 02:32 PM
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Ohhhhh! the camera shaved off ten years! Looked much younger on the internet... 1+1 is 2, 2+2 is 4 ... excuse me while I brush up on my math! Duuuuhhhhhh!

I see what yer saying about no control over the circ from the t'stat... so in effect, the LOW setting of your a'stat then is acting kinda like the 'anticipator' in a thermostat would...

You _could_ add a relay to the system... something like a Taco 501, or a Honey 8845... wire the t'stat to that, the circ to one set of contacts, and use the other set of contacts to fire the boiler. The circ would run when the t'stat called, the a'stat would control only the high limit in the boiler, circ and boiler would shut down when heat call ended...
 
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Old 11-17-09, 02:37 PM
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I did this drawing for another application a while back, but it fits your scenario also:

 
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Old 11-17-09, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by DA59a View Post
I don't like the looks of that circulator. Looks like a piece of 2x4 jammed in to correct the angle of the dangle. The coupling and motor mounts may be shot?

And it looks like oil or water has leaked from a seal and been flung against the boiler.
 
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Old 11-17-09, 04:07 PM
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I don't like the looks of the whole thing! But, my understanding is to just get it through this winter and replacement is planned for next spring/summer... is that right Da?

I missed this one:
Not sure what you're asking - the monoflo is one wrap around the basement.
I was wondering if there were individual monoflo 'loops' on each floor... if there were, you could zone it that way, floor by floor, but if all the rads are piped back to the same loop around the basement, won't work...
 
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Old 11-17-09, 08:00 PM
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Looks like a piece of 2x4 jammed in to correct the angle of the dangle
Not a 2x4, but is a old service tag hanging off the motor... But that is a brick supporting the gas line to the left of it.
And it looks like oil or water has leaked from a seal and been flung against the boiler.
The old springs/parts from the coupling were laying in the dirt floor near the furnace from a prior repair/issues... Does look nasty, but the motor is very smooth and quiet. and solid too
Ohhhhh! the camera shaved off ten years! Looked much younger on the internet... 1+1 is 2, 2+2 is 4 ... excuse me while I brush up on my math! Duuuuhhhhhh!
I didn't catch it at first until I realized by the date, it's 4 years younger than I am. It's not THAT old!!! Beer 4U2

Thanks for the P/N's and info! I'll look into that.
 
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Old 11-17-09, 08:27 PM
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I realized by the date, it's 4 years younger than I am. It's not THAT old!!!
Oh! a young feller! Happy 50th! Beer 4U2

You should be able to find the 8845 for under $50 or so, check Patriot Supply - Industrial, Commercial & Residential HVAC Parts & Equipment and PEX - Radiant Heat - Radiant Heating - Plumbing Supplies - PexSupply.com . You'll probly pay a good bit more from a local supply store.
 
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