Over-firing?


  #41  
Old 12-06-09, 08:48 AM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,538
Received 7 Votes on 5 Posts
If you had trouble getting the solder to flow, it means either the pipes weren't clean enough, or there was water present. You'll never get a good joint if either of those are the problem.

Personally I would probably re-do it, but that's your call. Depends on how you feel about it.
 
  #42  
Old 12-06-09, 09:06 AM
D
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 4,946
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
With the limited experience I have with soldering pipes, I found that I sometimes cook the flux out of the joint before the solder takes. You can apply more flux while the pipe is hot to get the solder take. You may need to add more solder as well.
 
  #43  
Old 12-07-09, 04:08 AM
Nate Danger's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I pulled verything apart and refitted the hydronic input side, including replacing the Shark Bite. I also brought in the cold supply. I lacked the propper fitting to set up the T&P valve and hot output and the hardware store was already closed. But it should go very quickly tomorrow evening.

What I really need help on now is setting up the aquastat. This tank control seems to be extremely different from the Amtrol. The Amtrol was set up with the only wires connected to it being the 120v which came in from the boiler main shut off switch box and ran out to the tank-dedicated circulator (I have two circulators, one running two zone valve controled baseboard zones, and the other running just the tank leg of the hydronic system (there is no zone valve controling this path)).

I'm sure you know how it works, but my understanding is that 1) the 120v ran from the main switch box on the boiler to some sort of control relay on the Amtrol which would close when there was a call for heat and open when the call had been met. So it seems that 2) the circulator does not turn on and off based on a 24v signal received, but just runs so long as there is 120v present.

There were no 24v lines conected to the Amtrol at all. So it seems that, as a result, The Amtrol was never sending a call to the boiler. So since the lo side was set at 120 degrees, the circulator would just run 120 degree water through the Ammtrol unless there happened to be an indoor call for heat at the time. This seems like a bad way to set it up since it means that the circulator would run 24/7 trying to meet a 140 degree call for heat with 120 degree water. Are those circulators made to run non-stop like that?

Anyway, the new tank uses an L4006A aquastat. It looks like I need to hook this up to an R845A and run that to the circulator and to the L8124 to fire the boiler. But the problem I think I see is that since the L8124 runs the baseboard circulator, then a call for heat from the tank would turn it on also. Is that right? Do I actually need two R845As?
 
  #44  
Old 12-07-09, 04:05 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,538
Received 7 Votes on 5 Posts
Take a look at the R8845 vs the 845. It's actually a little less money and has pretty lights on it...

You can set up the wiring to use the ZR terminal on the 8124. This will fire the burner, but not the circ... this is not 24 V wiring, but 120V... it will be handled pretty much the same way as adding a heating zone... let me see what I can find as far as a diagram goes.
 
  #45  
Old 12-07-09, 04:28 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,538
Received 7 Votes on 5 Posts
OK, here ya go... should do the trick.

 
  #46  
Old 12-07-09, 11:37 PM
Nate Danger's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Thanks, tha'ts great. It looks a little odd, though, with the burner input from the L4006 connecting with that capacitor before hitting terminal ZR. I am assuming it is a line off of the terminal and not the input which actually connects with the cap. and it's just drawn wierd. I will try to find one of those locally. The pretty lights are a real bonus!
 
  #47  
Old 12-08-09, 03:11 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,538
Received 7 Votes on 5 Posts
Yeah, it does look weird... I ripped that from the 8124 install manual, and that's the way Honey drew it... after I made the minor mods to it, I actually meant to move the ZR 'bubble' out by itself so that it was obvious that it was a terminal on that line.

Bottom line is that the wire from the 845 relay terminal 4 goes to the ZR terminal.

1K1 only looks like a capacitor (I think that's what you meant by 'cap'?). 1K1 is a set of relay contacts on the aquastat relay. That set fires the burner. 1K2 is the circulator pole of the same relay. 1K is the coil of that relay.

burner input from the L4006 connecting
The 4006 doesn't get wired to the ZR terminal... that gets wired to the T T terminals in the 845 (or 8845) relay.
 
  #48  
Old 12-08-09, 10:56 PM
Nate Danger's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Thanks for clarifying the 1K issue. I was pretty confused because even though they used a cap. symbol it just didn't make sense to label a cap. with a 'K'.

Gotcha on the burner input. Oops, I meant to say 8845 not 4006. Speaking of which, I have one more place to check, but I might have to just order one (8845/845) online. Either way, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel now.

Thank you very much for all of your help. I've really been learning a lot.
 
  #49  
Old 12-10-09, 09:06 AM
Nate Danger's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I just ordered the 8845 from pexsupply. Do you have any idea why the shiping sould be so high? I know I'm remote, but I have stuff shipped here all the time and a 2lb. item for $48 is pretty steep.
 
  #50  
Old 12-10-09, 03:19 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,538
Received 7 Votes on 5 Posts
YIKES! that IS steep! I don't know why... call them and ask, I would!

There are other relays that will work... I wish I knew you were shopping locally, I could have given you a list to look for... Taco SR501 would/could have worked too... but it's done now anyway.

Wow... that's the same price for the shipping as for the relay durn near... ouch.

Ground would have been $12 cheaper than 2nd day Air... I checked Patriot Supply and they are about the same, give or take, but the part is about $10 more...

Don't forget both these places are clear across the continent from you!
 
  #51  
Old 12-10-09, 04:20 PM
M
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: U.S. Midwest
Posts: 1,339
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Nate Danger View Post
Do you have any idea why the shiping sould be so high? I know I'm remote, but I have stuff shipped here all the time and a 2lb. item for $48 is pretty steep.
I thought USPS Priority flat-rate boxes would go anywhere in the U.S. Is it just to the lower 48?
 
  #52  
Old 12-11-09, 03:12 AM
Nate Danger's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I waited until morning to have it shipped, so I could have them double check the price. She didn't have any idea why it was so much. I saw that the SR501 was one model the 8845 replaced, but I don't know if I could have found this locally either. The shipping was actually $2 more than the part. I had a 40 lb. guitar amp. shipped here UPS 2nd day from American Musical Supply, which is in NJ, for about $35. I'm on an island, so they can't ship ground.

I use the flat rate boxes to ship smoked salmon from here quite often. That makes it very affordable. The girl I spoke with at Pex Supply did give me a lower rate to go USPS. They wouldn't go flat rate for some reason, but I think it was around $25 for Priority. But she told me that they couldn't insure it with USPS. I had a violin shipped USPS from Musician's Friend and they took almost a month to get here. We actually thought it was lost and they sent me another violin UPS 2nd day. Ironically, they both arrived on the same day.

Oh well, this sort of thing is just par for the course for around here. The good news is that it's on it's way and it might even show up on Saturday.
 
  #53  
Old 12-16-09, 10:37 AM
Nate Danger's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
The 8845 came in Monday evening, but I didn't get to it until Tuesday evening. I found another fitting I was missing, but was able to fill the tank and run the circulator. The Shark Bite on the hydronic in was spraying water. I already have a union on this line, so I think I'll try hard plumbing it in this time.

I took a closer look at setting up the 8845. I think I found a good place to mount it. The only inconveinience it will have to be completely disconnected if the tank ever needs to be removed.

The terminals are labeled differently than on the schematic you provided, so I wanted to go over them to make sure. I scanned the schematic page into photobucket. Pictures by thailey_photo - Photobucket

Is the following correct?:

1=L1, black/hot
2=L2, white/neut.
3=A and is jumpered internally to L1, black/hot
4=B and runs to ZR on the 8124, black/hot
5=COM and is jumpered internally to A, black/hot
6=N.O. and runs to the circulator, black/hot

L2 (or some other ret.) runs to the circulator, white/neut.
No white/neut. runs from the 8845 to the 8124. This is handled internally to the 8124.
 
  #54  
Old 12-16-09, 02:42 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,538
Received 7 Votes on 5 Posts
Real quick knockdown drawing of how you will connect.



I used the drawing that you posted... note that some of the contacts are 'reversed' from your description below, but with a relay it really doesn't matter...

1=L1, black/hot
2=L2, white/neut.
3=A and is jumpered internally to L1, black/hot
4=B and runs to ZR on the 8124, black/hot
5=COM and is jumpered internally to A, black/hot
6=N.O. and runs to the circulator, black/hot

L2 (or some other ret.) runs to the circulator, white/neut.
No white/neut. runs from the 8845 to the 8124. This is handled internally to the 8124.
You do need a neutral into the 8845...

Pick up the power from the same circuit that the boiler is on, perhaps there is a junction box nearby you can tie into.

Run the circ wires up into the 8845, but don't try to put a ton of wires under one screw. Ideally, there should only be one wire on each. Instead, where the neutral comes into the 8845, take a wire nut, and cut a short pigtail jumper. Put the incoming white neutral, the pigtail jumper, and the white wire from the circ into the wire nut. In other words, make the multiple connection in a wire nut inside the 8845 box, and run the short pigtail jumper to the L2 terminal.

Another way you could do this... if you use a 3 wire cable, white, black, red with ground... run this into the 8124. Remove the incoming power wires into the 8124 from L1 and L2 and connect them to the white and the black in the new cable with wire nuts and a pigtail... connect the pigtails back to L1 and L2. Use the RED wire for the ZR connection. Run this new cable over to the 8845 and terminate as above.

Later tonight I can draw a 'pictorial' that will illustrate if my thousand words ain't cuttin' it.
 
  #55  
Old 12-17-09, 12:25 AM
Nate Danger's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Alright, I've got it all plumbed and wired. When I started up the system, the relay clicked on and off when the aquastat dial crossed 40 degrees. I felt the circ. working while the relay was closed. I couldn't tell for sure if the line from B to ZR was setting the boiler to fire because since the system had been off while I was wiring, there was a steady call for heat from inside the house. I ran down the inside thermostat, but the boiler had already hit its hi limit (set now at 190 with a 10 degree diff.). The pipes on the hydronic side in/from the boiler never did get hot to the touch, even after 30 minutes running. At a total of 45 minutes running, the boiler still hadn't fired, because the temp. gauge said it still hadn't dropped below the diff. I turned the aquastat on the tank down to check the water temp. and it didn't open the relays until I got down to 40 degrees. Is my circ. pump fried? I could feel it vibrating the pipes een on the other side of the tank.

Pictures by thailey_photo - Photobucket
 
  #56  
Old 12-17-09, 02:25 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,538
Received 7 Votes on 5 Posts
Is that a check valve in the line from the boiler supply to the tank? Is it installed backward?

If it's not, then I would try to either 'burp' the circulator (trapped air) or find some way to bleed the indirect loop...
 
  #57  
Old 12-17-09, 02:34 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,538
Received 7 Votes on 5 Posts
A few wiring 'tips'... when terminating a wire under a screw terminal, run the loop on the wire clockwise so that tightening the screw pulls the wire in, rather than pushes out.

It appears that you may have snipped the green grounds? How's come? Those should run to the ground screws... I know that the metal sheath is 'usually' good for a ground, but electrical codes generally don't allow it... inspectors always want to see the greens used. They might do things different up on the island though?
 
  #58  
Old 12-17-09, 03:54 PM
Nate Danger's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I think it is a check valve. How do you tell if it's in backwards? When I open the hand valve above it, water runs toward the tank. I know this because when I opened it as when the Shark Bite started spraying. (The problem ther, was that the pipe cut was not square.) Is that a sufficient check?

How do I burp the circulator or bleed the indirect line?

Thanks for the tips on wiring. I actually used the existing wiring that was hooked up to the circulator, as well as the wiring from the boiler shut off/junction box that used to run to the Amtrol. They already had the greens cut back. Should I replace them?
 
  #59  
Old 12-17-09, 04:59 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,538
Received 7 Votes on 5 Posts
There should be a flow arrow in the casting... or, take a close up so we can see it... if I'm reading your pics right, the flow goes DOWN in that pipe with the check valve?

How do I burp the circulator or bleed the indirect line?
Loosening the bolts on one of the flanges... it's gonna be messy... bleeding it, dunno... no drains or bleeds installed.

Let's see the check valve before we think about other stuff though.

Should I replace them?
All I can tell you is that I probably would... but use your own 'comfort level' to judge for yourself. Chances are very good that the metal sheath will provide the grounding needed...

The main feed from the breaker panel though... is THAT ground continuous? If you had no ground to the system at all... I would definitely say GROUND IT! You wouldn't want 120VAC all over your heating system.
 
  #60  
Old 12-17-09, 05:00 PM
Nate Danger's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Woohoo!! There was a drain on the boiler side of the circulator. I also found that there was another shutt off valve, obstructed from clear view, which my friend must have closed when he helped me pull out the old tank. 30 minutes later I had 40 gallons of 130 degree water. I'm stoked and so is my wife. Thank you very much for all of your help.

One other question, How do I set up the 8124 for cold start next spring?
 
  #61  
Old 12-17-09, 06:07 PM
X
Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 2,455
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Nice job, Nate. Congrats. Enjoy the hot water.
 
 

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: