My circ pump too small ? - Taco007 or B&G 100 ?


  #41  
Old 11-29-09, 12:08 PM
F
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wet side of Washington state.
Posts: 16,321
Received 38 Upvotes on 30 Posts
Originally Posted by philb00 View Post
I dont have to BE a real plumber to measure the pipes , do I?
I simply took tape measure and measured the diameter or bolier's output/return steep pipes and it comes to 1 1/4"
(not 1" nor 1 1/2" for sure)
Of course you don't need to be a plumber to measure pipes, HOWEVER, when you are looking for answers from plumbers, heating system technicians and serious DIYers you need to be specific with the information given. Since pipes are measured by their nominal inside diameters you have unwittingly given misinformation. A heating system with 1-inch nominal piping is quite a bit different than one with 1-1/4 inch nominal piping.
--
It was never said the boiler is oversized - some are just already stating/assuming that
I stated the boiler was oversize because almost all residential boilers of that era are oversize.
--
I never said the boiler cycles alot and never said how it performs in middle of winter - it is still late Fall and only lik 45-55 (today) outside.
The boiler does run pretty much steady during dead of winter for past many years when I had the BG100 pump
Yet to know (for sure) how boiler/pump will do come this Jan/Feb
---
What is a monflow system ?
A Monoflo (no w) system uses a single loop of piping for BOTH supply and return from the various radiators. It accomplishes this by use of a special (Monoflo) tee in either the supply or return from the various radiators. It is a good system but it does have some quirks in regard to bleeding air from the system.

Can someone point out any pics of something like I have
Natural gas hot water boiler with steel pipes or something close ? Maybe BG 100 pump ?
I'm sorry, but I cannot find any pictures of the iron Monoflo tees your system may have as they have long ago been discontinued. The fuel that is used to heat the boiler is irrelevant to this discussion as is the piping material. Why would you need a picture of a B&G series 100 pump since you already know what it looks like?
---
I get feeling most plumbers really like Taco pumps because less headaches where no oiling and lighter easier to just throw this generic pump in (and like I thought) it alomost automatically comes packaged into most all new boilers.
There are other manufacturers of "canned" or "cartridge" pumps but the Taco 007 is popular for the exact reasons that you stated, it is small, needs no oiling, fits the majority of systems and is (relatively) inexpensive. Since inventory takes up not only space but also working capital it makes no business sense to stock several different pumps with similar characteristics.
--

Sorry to drag out the thread - but I do have a lot of questions
and most have been answered and appreciate you all for
trying to help me
Thanks

jnoirejpouge0oirtrp[ykih iojg0ejtwep-o[qe
 
  #42  
Old 11-29-09, 01:50 PM
X
Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 2,338
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Here's a very, very simple diagram of a monoflow piping system.

http://highperformancehvac.com/Image...ipe-system.jpg

Like furd said, Taco is not the only manufacturer of wet-rotor circulators. B&G, for example, makes at least a dozen.
 
  #43  
Old 11-29-09, 02:39 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
Phil, I don't care how or who mixed your question about license in here. This is DO IT YOURSELF, and whether or not a plumber is licensed or not has nothing at all to do with that. So just drop it, OK? ehhh ehhh... not one more word! You kids don't make me come up there!

There is no doubt in my mind that your boiler is oversized. For a 1700 sq foot home you would have to have a wall missing to need a 157000 BTU boiler. Unfortunately when fuel was cheap, it didn't seem to matter.

If you can't take pics, then take a look at the link that Xiphias posted, and then look at your system.

MONOFLO systems are characterized by the fact that the pipes to the radiators are fed off of a main pipe, up to the radiator, and then the return comes back from the radiator a few feet further down the SAME PIPE. The TEE FITTINGS are special. They are designed to cause a pressure difference across the fitting that will force a portion of the flow in the main pipe to travel through the radiator. This is what makes it difficult to get the air completely out of this type system. There is not, and doesn't need to be, much flow through each radiator, thus the air can easily become trapped in the radiator.

A SERIES loop system will also have one pipe running around the whole system, but ALL the flow will go into one radiator/baseboard, then out the other end, and off to the next radiator/baseboard.

There are a couple 'flavors' of TWO PIPE systems. Basically though, one pipe is a supply and the other a return. You will see two pipes running together around the home. The supply to the rads will come off one of the pipes, and the return from each rad will go to the other.

So take a look and tell us what you have.
 
  #44  
Old 11-29-09, 05:21 PM
P
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Boston Mass US
Posts: 51
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Got the monflo type piping

As was said - that these wet-rotor ie Taco pump should/best to be on the supply side (but still work on the "wrong" /return side) too -
IF I had known that I would have told the Plumber to just give me the same stinkin BG100 pump and put it in(and at least I would have pump on the "correct" side like always did )
And no questions/issues - I would have paid the extra money if need be too to do it 100% correctly
But I was never offered/informed of the option.

But I did not and the crappy plumber never mentioned it (prob didnt know himself - or bother to look/think about it)

Someone said - ya should move the Taco pump over to the "correct" /supply side ...
RU kidding me! ... giveme a break ... how much $$$ do ya think some of us have to spend ?
I ask for a simple pump replacement - and now ya got me cutting/moving pipes and pumps around just to fit the plumber's particular bias to use a Taco pump
Pretty rediculous. Already spent good $450 for a shrimpy pump and now it's technically on the "wrong" side - I find out now!!... (ohh yeh but it works, right) I suppose most any pump will "work" of course
But I paid a socalled professional plumber who supposed to know what they're doing to do the job 100% right - not halfass/cheapest/quickest/easiest for them and their inventory

So I guess this wet-rotor being on "wrong" side is bugging me most now - besides it's being smaller
(havent convinced me yet - that it's not really)
And I say 70% here say Taco is ok/same but 30% posters like OleBoiler say Taco is "lousy" substitute
Guess have to take it all with some grain of salts since
so kinda split on this whole thing
---

It looks like I understand now (finally) I have monflo system -
(from simple diagram)
Have one single main pipe and tees going up and few feet further another tee coming back (and does match up with rads upstairs) at least ones I can see from basement.
Prob would been good if all the experts here pointed this out to non-plumber/rookie/know-nothing-me a long time ago
we not all Plumbers here, ya know, Thought that is what this forum is for - to help people learn and diy...
But I wonder
---
So what does that do - knowing I got monflo system ?

I also (just noticed this) I got this #114 Thrush type below as very first fitting coming off the supply pipe coming out of boiler which then goes to a T loop to left and loop out to right side of house.
http://www.heatinghelp.com/files/articles/1229/221.pdf

Never had a Thrush circulator but the BG100 pump.
ANd guess I do have only 1" steel pipes (not 1 1/4" I was measuring the o.d.) bc I have the THrush #114 fitting
And I do have the 1/2" side tapping coming off it to the o/h pressure tank
(hey maybe I dont need to worry of bleeding air - as it says it is automatic up to the o/h tank ) ?

And the lil lever in pic - for me is in the Open (wrong) position
looks like if go by the Thrush pic
But this lever has been prob in Open position for maybe 50 yrs and nobody noticed it.
Im nmot about to move it since it wil prob snap off and really screw me with nice big leak or something.
What effect would that have being in Open position vs normal ?
Are these Thrush fittings used much anymore too ?
Why is monoflo no longer used ?
What type design is used now ?
How ya supposed to bleed it ?

It is not practical to go around to each radiator and try twisting/turning (possibly breaking) the old bleeder
(And no way is any plumber going to go creeping around doing this for ya)
And like said - there are only 3 or 4 at most accesible/workable bleeders really in whole system of 14 or so different castiron radiators
If this is only way - pretty crappy method.
Thanks
 
  #45  
Old 11-29-09, 05:29 PM
D
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 4,345
Upvotes: 0
Received 1 Upvote on 1 Post
Originally Posted by philb00 View Post

It is not practical to go around to each radiator and try twisting/turning (possibly breaking) the old bleeder
(And no way is any plumber going to go creeping around doing this for ya)
And like said - there are only 3 or 4 at most accesible/workable bleeders really in whole system of 14 or so different castiron radiators
If this is only way - pretty crappy method.
Thanks
That's what I do. That's what my plumber did on more than one occasion when he installed my new boiler. It doesn't take that long to do. I'm sure it would take less time than it took you to write one of your posts. If the bleeders don't operate, they should be replaced.
 
  #46  
Old 11-29-09, 07:28 PM
F
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wet side of Washington state.
Posts: 16,321
Received 38 Upvotes on 30 Posts
Circulator pumps, no matter whose brand or type, should always be on the supply side of the system but it has only been recently, maybe the last ten or fifteen years that residential systems have been more commonly done that way. Even with the knowledge that "pumping away" (from the expansion tank connection) is the preferred connection I suspect that the majority of replacement boilers have the circulators installed on the return to the boiler. In addition to all the new installations that are wrong there are thousands, maybe tens of thousands of installations that have the pump, all styles and brands of pumps, on the return and pumping towards the expansion tank connection. These pump locations are wrong but in most cases they work without problem.

The Bell&Gossett 100 series are NOT "stinkin" pumps. They are a proven design and they last almost forever when properly maintained. Unfortunately, most people pay no attention to them as long as they have heat. Also unfortunate is that they have a high cost because of their particular design. The "cartridge" pumps were introduced because they are virtually maintenance free AND can be manufactured and sold at a lower cost. Both pumps are satisfactory for residential heating systems but the cartridge pump usually is installed because of the zero maintenance feature AND the lower cost.

The plumbers you had service your system may be exceptional craftsmen or they may be hacks. Neither can be ascertained by their use of the Taco pump in place of the original B&G pump. It is also quite possible that they are not aware of the concept of "pumping away" or even if they are they probably knew that in probably 90% of all installations the incorrect location of the pump does not prove to be a problem with system operation. They may also have deduced from your attitude (if you presented anything like the attitude you have on this forum) that no way in h**l were you going to okay a radical design change in your heating system just because a fifty-year-old pump failed.

I would venture to state that there are not too many Monoflo systems when compared to series-loop or two-pipe systems, probably only ten to fifteen percent of all systems use Monoflo tees. The system was originally conceived to lessen the amount of piping compared to a two-pipe system yet give better performance than a series-loop system. It IS a good system when properly designed and the fact that you had no complaints for the first fifty years proves that.

As for no one advising you that you have a Monoflo system...none of us are wearing your shoes or looking through your eyes. We cannot see what you see and the fact that you cannot provide us pictures compounds the problems of trying to communicate over the Internet.

The Thrush #114 fitting is what is known generically as a flow control valve, or what Bell&Gossett calls a Flo-Control valve. Functionally it is a check valve that has an external means (the lever on a Thrush or a knob on the B&G) of lifting the valve disc from the valve seat. Its purpose is to prevent gravity flow of hot water through the system when the circulator pump is not running. It is somewhat redundant on a Monoflo system as the velocity of gravity flow is rarely sufficient to cause circulation to the radiators from the Monoflo tees. You are correct in not trying to move the lever unless you want to replace the entire valve assembly.

As for bleeding air from your system...that is why the air vents were installed on each radiator. Air will ALWAYS travel to the higher spots in the system but it will sometimes get "hung up" in its travel to the high points. You do indeed need to bleed each and every radiator and probably several times each to remove all the air. The fact that you haven't needed to prior to the pump replacement is, along with the make-up water valve being closed, a testament to the tightness of the system.

But changing the pump introduced air into the system and it matters not what brand or type of pump was reinstalled. Even if the plumbers had installed another B&G series 100 pump you would have needed to bleed air from the system. If you have non-functioning air vents they need to be replaced, no ifs, ands or buts. And you should be prepared to pay for their replacements if the job is beyond your skills.

You may not like the way I have worded this and all I can say is, tough. You started this with an attitude and now you are reaping the rewards of that attitude. The plumbers that did the work for you don't deserve the lambasting you have given them in this thread and neither does anybody else. You can accept the suggestions FREELY GIVEN or not, your choice. I'm through with this thread.
 
  #47  
Old 11-29-09, 07:34 PM
M
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: U.S. Midwest
Posts: 1,173
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Here's a system for comparison:

Early 1950s house, natural gas
Monoflo system, black pipe
Approx 3800 sq. ft. (excluding heated basement)
Cast iron baseboards
Boiler output (oversized): 124,600 Btu/hr (confirmed by testing)
Two 1-1/4" NPS supplies (1st and second floor), branching from 1-1/2" NPS headers
B&G flo control valves
One Taco 0012 wet-rotor circulator at boiler return (original pump was B&G HV 3-piece) - pump position as recommended by B&G at the time
Conventional expansion tank with B&G Airtrol fittings on boiler supply
Balancing ballcocks in returns from 1st floor N&S and 2nd floor N&S

Works great. Once the system is bled, there are no problems with air (each baseboard has a bleeder valve). Expansion tank never seems to lose any air.
 

Last edited by Mike Speed 30; 11-29-09 at 07:57 PM.
  #48  
Old 11-29-09, 07:43 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
Have one single main pipe and tees going up and few feet further another tee coming back (and does match up with rads upstairs) at least ones I can see from basement.
Prob would been good if all the experts here pointed this out to non-plumber/rookie/know-nothing-me a long time ago
Phil, in my VERY FIRST POST to this thread, I touched on this exact item. And several people asked afterward, trying to get an answer from you... how is it our fault if you didn't comprehend / bother to read / etc?

I'm not crazy about your attitude either... but still trying to be patient and helpful...
 
  #49  
Old 11-29-09, 08:13 PM
M
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: U.S. Midwest
Posts: 1,173
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by furd View Post
The plumbers that did the work for you don't deserve the lambasting you have given them in this thread and neither does anybody else. You can accept the suggestions FREELY GIVEN or not, your choice. I'm through with this thread.
I'm with Furd on this.

This man's major issue is his dispute with the plumbers that he hired - he thinks they are incompetent, possibly unlicensed, and didn't earn the $450 they charged them. (I haven't seen any proof of that, so far.)

But, anyway, this doesn't seem to be an appropriate issue for a DIY board. I haven't discerned any inclination on his part to acutally do any hands-on work.

I think that if he wants to pursue this, he should go to the Better Business Bureau or small claims court. I don't think we can help him.
 
  #50  
Old 11-29-09, 08:48 PM
P
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Boston Mass US
Posts: 51
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Geez will ya all relax

Geez take it eazy all willya...
Forget everything I said about these plumbers, ok. ok
I didnt know it is so sensitive and personally taken here...
I dont have any attitude but I guess that's being inferred here obviuosly
I admitted I am complete rookie non-Plumber and just looking for some help and doing all I can to get any facts/answers for ya and sorry if I blamed anybody here..... geeeezzz
Would get ya pics pronto if could but cant w/out camera

I said THANKS many times to all for the info - I appreciate it... Just trying to figure out whether to leave the Taco in as it is or get another BG100
Some have said here that they dont think Taco07 is proper equal to BG 100
But I realize most are saying it is and dont worry about it
---
I forgot to tell ya we have 8' ceilings upstairs so rooms are kinda high ceilings - make any difference in heating ?

Anybody know what good/bad will occur if the Thrush thingmigajig (see I dont know all the plumber lingo - so go eazzzy)
having the lil lever in Open vs Normal will do ?
Prob nothing ?
It says in that Thrush paper Open is for draining.

I think there is definitely heat migration or gravity heat (whatever its called) going up to 2 or 3 rads directly above the boiler when I tested by shutting down thermostat and boiler for few hours and let the house cool down. All the rads got prettty cool except the
2 or 3 upstairs closeby the boiler location.
Is this a good or bad thing ?

Thanks again.... no offense taken and no attitude
guess i've beaten the dead horse dead
 
  #51  
Old 11-29-09, 08:50 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
Ya know, yer right Mike... although, he DID say that he was considering changing the pump himself, but he didn't need us to walk him through that, because he watched the crummy plumbers do it.

I think perhaps it may not be an attitude, but a style of writing that we are mis-interpreting. That's easy to do on the internet. If we were hangin' with Phil Beer 4U2 hoistin' a few, we might have a different perception.
 
  #52  
Old 11-29-09, 09:03 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
Phil, given that you have what we all believe now is a monoflo system, in my opinion, the chances are even better that the 007 will be an adequate replacement for the 100.

Monoflo systems are usually higher HEAD, because the special tee fittings themselves add restriction to the flow. In this case, it's even possible that the 007 can flow MORE than the 100.

Go back to the chart that I posted with the three arbitrary SYSTEM CURVES on it. Those three curves represent the HEAD or RESISTANCE that your SYSTEM might present to a pump.

Look at the leftmost system curve. This might be somewhat representative of your system given that it's a monoflo.

Look at the points where that SYSTEM curve intersects the PUMP curve, and follow that down to the GPM scale on the bottom. Notice how close in GPM all three pumps are at that point.

And, like furd said, whether you like it or not, you are going to have to bleed the system. Whether they put a 100 back in, or a 007, once the system is opened, it is going to need to have the air bled out, and being that the bleeders may not have been turned in 50 years, some may need replacing... and there should be no complaints about it, because after all, it's fifty years old! I bet you don't have the same car your were driving 50 years ago... or for that matter, the same set of golf clubs!

You can not blame the pump until you are 100% sure that it's NOT a problem with air.
 
  #53  
Old 11-29-09, 09:07 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
I think there is definitely heat migration or gravity heat ... Is this a good or bad thing ?
It depends on whether or not the temperature in the home overshoots the thermostats, and if it does, whether or not it's uncomfortable for you. If it's been that way for 50 years and you never noticed, then it just doesn't matter.
 
  #54  
Old 11-29-09, 09:21 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
I'm going to try and explain the bit about moving the pump to the supply side... it's not going to be easy to understand, but I'll run the basics by ya...

The point in your system where the expansion tank connects is called the "Point Of No Pressure Change", or PONPC. Plumber or not, try to remember this acronym.

When a circulating pump runs, it creates a PRESSURE DIFFERENTIAL across that pump, and this is what causes the water to move.

When you place the pump in a system pumping TOWARD the PONPC, the pressure differential across the pump will SUBTRACT from the static fill pressure. In other words, the pressure in the rest of the system will be LOWERED.

When you place the pump in a system pumping AWAY from the PONPC, the pressure diff across the pump will ADD to the static pressure. The pressure in the rest of the system will be RAISED.

When you LOWER the pressure in the system, the dissolved AIR in the water will more readily come out of solution and form bubbles. And because of the lower pressure, these bubbles will be LARGER and harder to move.

When you RAISE the pressure in the system, that air in the water will have a tendency to stay in solution, and the bubbles that are out there will be SMALLER and easier to move.

The only place in your system that air belongs is in your expansion tank.

Air in the water will always find it easiest to leave the water at the HIGHEST TEMPERATURE, and the LOWEST PRESSURE.

By putting the pump AFTER the PONPC, and on the SUPPLY side, that HIGHEST TEMP, and LOWEST PRESSURE point will ALSO be the point that your expansion tank is connected, and where you want that air to go.

This is not to say that your guys should have suggested this to you... they were there to change a pump, not to redesign your system so that it conforms to modern design technique.

If you were interested in IMPROVING the performance of your system based on modern thinking, then you should consider these changes. If you were happy with it's performance for 50 years, then leave it alone.
 
  #55  
Old 11-29-09, 09:34 PM
P
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Boston Mass US
Posts: 51
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
HI Trooper
Thanks for answering more and bearing with me...
I heard plumbers mumble when here after putting in new pump something like there will always be some air in system and at same time they said the air will/does work itself out.
Is this true? Seem kinda opposites
I do have a "closed" heating system , right ?
If new fresh water is let in somehow - that "new" water has more air in it per se than the "old" water and may cause some air to get into system, right ?
--
What about the o/h exp tank ?
That Thrush link says like the o/h exp tank will take up the air or something about vent out excess air automatic I think ? Is that correct ?
Maybe it doesnt work so good since the Thrush lil lever is in Open vs Normal position. ?

Our good oletimer plumber put in about 10 yrs ago a new better drain valve into the o/h tank - it has a long clear air tube (like straw) connected to the fawcet/spigot and he told something about the screw for air?on side which if open the screw and the fawcett/valve will help drain water out faster - pretty confused about this valve w/side screw thing. THe old valve did not have a side screw and think he said this newer valve will work better for draining and keeping o/h tank better balanced (I think?)?
--
I understand the o/h tank is supposed to be half water half air and it fluctuates with boiler usage, right ? He told me to once a year in Fall can drain out some water from tank - I think esp when see white needle on Altitude get up above the red one sitting at 30
I have done that and the white needle pretty quick starts going down back below or on the red needle again. When should ya drain water out of o/h tank ?
Can you drain out the entire upstairs radiator system also via this o/h tank using this valve/fawcett wide side screw ?

Thanks again... btw I am trying to be diy ... Ive read so much on B&G website and here, etc - its making me sick... and I would change out the pump (if comes to that) myself (will at least try to and hope not screw it up)
 
  #56  
Old 11-29-09, 09:49 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
I've gotta hit the sack... I'll answer more tomorrow if someone don't beat me to it first.

One thing though, if you've been draining the expansion tank on a regular basis, you would have HAD to operate the fill valve at some point... You can't just drain water out of the system without putting it back in... yer pressure in the boiler will be too low...
 
  #57  
Old 11-29-09, 10:02 PM
P
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Boston Mass US
Posts: 51
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
My air theory

If you say the couple/few radiators not getting hot/warm as thye used to be with BG100 is due mainly to air pockets in system or those particular radiators, right ?
And the air and hot water rises to highest point ...
Two of the luke warm radiators are the upright ones (guess that's what called) (in kitchen and bathbrm inset into wall) these are 32" high versus others are only 12" tall all along baseboard.
So I and the plumbers went for the easy bleed turn screw to bleed air and nothing but water....
So?...

Does that mean there is 100% no air in "this" radiator ?
Or could there still be some air pocket in this radiator ?
Or no air at this very second of point in time (but may get some later as more water travels thru ) ?
Guess suppose there could be other air pockets in other radiators/pipes elsewhere ?

If there is no air bleeding out ever - then why dont these taller 32" uprights get that hot like the lower baseboard ones ?
--
My theory is -
that the Taco7 has half the Hp (fact) and cant pump the water full force enough (gpm or flowrate) to these two 32" upright high(er) radiators... but the BG100 could w/no problem.
(with maybe some excess to spare )

Does my theory hold any hot water or am I all wet ? (haha)

I still just gut feel /overall dont think this Taco7 circulates the water/heat thru ALL the radiators like the BG100 did and does the job it did.
And I really dont think the "air in system" can be used as the reason.

Thanks
 
  #58  
Old 11-30-09, 04:54 AM
X
Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 2,338
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by philb00 View Post
I still just gut feel /overall dont think this Taco7 circulates the water/heat thru ALL the radiators like the BG100 did and does the job it did.
The customer is always right. If you don't like the 007, then install a B&G 100.
 
  #59  
Old 11-30-09, 06:56 AM
rbeck's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 2,394
Upvotes: 0
Received 61 Upvotes on 51 Posts
You have to get the hp and gpm out of your head. The pump curves work very easily. As resistance to flow increases the flow decreases and the resistance to flow decreases the flow increases. Look at the curves posted early. The maximum gpm flow to the far right does not mean anything to you as that is a no load(resistance) flow. You, with a monoflo system do not have a no load system.
Increasing the hp of a properly sized pump will not increase flow.
The Taco 007 will move water against a larger resistance than the B&G 100 but, at a lower resistance the B&G will move more water.

How many radiators do you have and what is the length and width of the home? Is it one or 2 story? What is the BTU of the boiler? I believe we have already determined it is 1" black pipe around the basement. How many 1" elbows are there in the basement loop? Can you see the piping to the radiators not heating? If so are they going uphill continuously or is there a sag in any of the horizontal pipes?
 
  #60  
Old 11-30-09, 10:48 AM
rbeck's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 2,394
Upvotes: 0
Received 61 Upvotes on 51 Posts
To better understand what can happen through house settling and draining systems see the link below.
Multiple_boiler Installation
 
  #61  
Old 11-30-09, 04:23 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
Does my theory hold any hot water or am I all wet ? (haha)
Sorry Phil, you are all wet!

Back to answer your earlier questions...

I heard plumbers mumble when here after putting in new pump something like there will always be some air in system and at same time they said the air will/does work itself out.
Is this true? Seem kinda opposites
You will always have air in the system. In a perfect world, all that air will be directed to the expansion tank, where it belongs.

In a perfect system, completely tight, and properly designed, the expansion tank may never become waterlogged, never need 'draining', and the water feed valve will never need to be opened... but a perfect world or a perfect system probably doesn't exist.

The fellows were probably talking about air in the radiators working itself out, and finding it's way back to the expansion tank.

I do have a "closed" heating system , right ?
Yes, you do.

If new fresh water is let in somehow - that "new" water has more air in it per se than the "old" water and may cause some air to get into system, right ?
Also correct. And that air will come out of solution and become air pockets, distributed throughout the system. And 'eventually' may find their way back to the expansion tank, where they belong.

Thrush link says like the o/h exp tank will take up the air or something about vent out excess air automatic I think ? Is that correct ?
I'm too young to be familiar with Thrush products... but if they are designed to collect the air from the water passing through them, then they should also be designed to pass that air to the expansion tank (if the tank is connected to it), OR in certain types of systems (not yours) an automatic air vent can be used to release that collected air to the atmosphere.

THe old valve did not have a side screw and think he said this newer valve will work better for draining and keeping o/h tank better balanced (I think?)?
Your oletimer should have also told you to close the valve in the line from the boiler to the expansion tank before you open the drain.

When you try to drain an expansion tank with a 'standard' valve, you will get a little water out, but the flow will stop soon, but the tank is NOT empty. It's like when you put your finger on the end of a drinking straw and lift it out of the drink. The liquid stays in the straw. Take your finger off and the straw empties. The clear tube and air vent on that newer valve allows air to enter the tank and 'breaks' the vacuum that can prevent the tank from emptying completely...

Which by the way is the proper way to drain the expansion tank... you need to CLOSE the line from the tank to the boiler, and COMPLETELY drain the tank. Then, close the drain and reopen the line to the boiler. NEXT, you MUST open the feed/fill valve to replace the water you took out and refill the expansion tank and compress the air that is supposed to be trapped in the tank, and repressure the boiler system to 12-15 PSI cold. It's clear that you didn't understand what your oletimer tole ya.

When should ya drain water out of o/h tank ?
When the tank becomes waterlogged, loses it's air 'cushion', and the system pressure rises too high when the boiler gets hot. ( i.e. above 30 PSI, which would/should open your pressure relief valve )

Can you drain out the entire upstairs radiator system also via this o/h tank using this valve/fawcett wide side screw ?
It's very unlikely that you could do this... and if you could, it would take forever, and besides, WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU WANT TO?

OK, that's your previous post...

Now your newest...

And I really dont think the "air in system" can be used as the reason.
As Xiphias said, the customer is always right... oh well, I tried!
 
  #62  
Old 12-01-09, 05:48 AM
P
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Boston Mass US
Posts: 51
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
more

HI Rbeck NJtrooper
That pic on link Rbeck - is not what I have as I thought monoflo meant:
That pic is not what I expected to see - it does not match what I have.
I have:
---radiator ---! -- radiator---
! ! ! !
---+-----a------+-----+ -----a-----+----+------a--------+
! !
!--basemnt rad--!
---flow -->
+ = Tee connectors
a = continous steel pipe goes all around house (not in that posted diagram/pic)

Plus some tees go down (for the radiators in basement)
since the pipe is up 7-8' in basement ceiling and the floor castiron baseboards are down at your feet in the fininished basement section
( So how does the hot air/water rising factor here work out ?
prob not great and depends on the power of good pump to push the water down and around into these basement radiators, right ?) Guess that's why these radiators also dont get so really hot as upstairs ones.

The pic posted does not show a continuos pipe (a) like I have thruout entire house
That diagram/pic posted shows more like elbows and not Tees (like I have)

So I guess it's still not understood what I already described my system to be (sorry no pics)
I will try to measure all radiators and count as many elbows as can actually see (but Im sure many are hidden and soffited/boxed/covered up by basement ceiling.
Also - dont have blackpipe - we have silver steel pipe all around
Already stated - this is 1 story 1957 ranchhouse w/ 8' ceilings
and finished basement about 1700 sq' heated
Boiler nameplate looks like imprinted 157,000 btu output

Sagging ? What? The pipes and house is in excellent shape and full 7-8' full basement foundation and no cracks/sagging
and all pipes are super-level and not sagging anywhere
Ground around here is mostly solid rocky ledge underground.
---
NJT - I did understand the oletimer plumber at time he told me - but was 10+ yrs ago and lil hard to remember now
He DID tell me about shutting off the 1/2 " valve/piping from boiler to the o/h tank (I forgot/left that out in last post)
and I have turned it closed in past (then later reopened) when did the draining thing

At least this relatively new o/h tank drain w/side screw valve/fawcett and the o/h tank seem to work pretty good (after 50+ yrs) and when white needle does get up/above over the red needle (for Altitude) sometimes - I do drain out some good amt of water - and the white needle goes right back down to more normal 10-13 level - depending on how hot/high the thermostat is set upstairs.

Oh yeh - I do have a fluketype (cheaperone) infrared thermal gun (shoots red beam) gives temperature of what pointing at.
Will it help to get some temp readings of input/output pipes at boiler ?
I did and usually looks like about 10+ degree diff most of time
Flucuates lots depending if boiler just came on or off of course.

Im still disappointed that this Taco pump does not keep up/perform as good as the BG100 did
I still think it aint strong enough to flow good/efficently thru the 2 upright 32" radiators

I think will prob just leave the stupid Taco pump in as it is (not break anything else and make things worse) and crossfinger it will do good enough thru the coldd winters here

Still question on that Thrush valve being in the OPen possition vs Normal
Anybody old enough here to know deal on that ?

I guess ya need some oletimer (like we used to have - too bad he passed on - and too bad his son didnt pick it up better from his father) who's been around long enough and has the experience of working on systems like mine to really know what doing. Guess the young plumbers never get exposed/taught/see any of this in school. Doesnt do me much good then - and no homeowner is about to go redesigning/ripping out (moving pumps around from one side to another) good/working heating equip just because to accomadate an inexperienced plumber's lack of knowhow to fix something. Most avg homeowners like me dont know/dont care to know/cant know w/out yrs of training and depend on a paid professional pulmber to know and do the work. oh well
Thanks for the help
 
  #63  
Old 12-01-09, 09:06 AM
S
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: MA.
Posts: 88
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Phil, a monoflo system will have ONE continuous pipe and TWO tees coming off the main to supply and return water from your radiator. If you can look at your tees ONE will have an arrow on it to tell you which direction the water will flow. That is your monoflo tee. Each rad will have one. If you don't know about monoflo tees, to the homeowner they all look the same. The other type of system you could have is a 2 pipe system. That is where one pipe feeds the rad and the other is for the return water. If you had that type you would have 2 pipes in the basement and not 1. Check your TEES. Next install new bleeders on those rads. That is the only way your going to get the air out of this kind of system. The fact that your rads get warm is telling me that there is water getting there, probably not returning because air is preventing proper circulation. Change the VENTS. A small ex. would be if you had a leak in your water line in your house, they would shut your water off and repair the leak and when they turn your water back on what happens at your faucets. They spit and spudder and do everything except deliver water until the air is gone. Where there is AIR there is no circulation. Air is one of the biggest enemies of a hot water system. These guys are spending an enourmous amt. of time trying to help you, the least you can do is try to help yourself. You keep mentioning you don't have a camera. Do you know anybody that has one. PITCH IN!!. i'm sure you heard a pic is worth a thousand words. I think you have covered at least that amount. The Taco may not be the perfect replacement but by just complaining about it your not going to accomplish anything. I'm sorry if I sound a little harsh but you have to remember these guys are trying to help you with a problem they can't see. The help is only gooing to be as good as the info you supply.
 
  #64  
Old 12-01-09, 09:41 AM
P
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Boston Mass US
Posts: 51
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
My diag came out crappy

Oops my lil diag came out messed up... crap
I do have a monoflo system (as I understand) but it
just doesnt look like that picture in the link just last posted

There is ONE long continuous (not two) pipe all around basement and then tees (two per radiator) spaced apart (sometimes 2-3' or maybe much longer depending on length CI radiator upstairs)

Just was trying to make clear my rad heating/piping is diff than that last posted link picture

Not complaining - just voicing my opinion (like everybody else does here) and am helping myself by going to this site and providing the info (and helping other people now and future) who might look this up and read. I have read lots of other posts and learned alot from older ones.

It's pretty clear that there a different opinions(guesses) here if this Taco7 pump is equal or not to the BG100
Some say yes, others say no
Hard to figure out for me (and you guys I know) and thanks for reading/typing back
I will try to get some pics
Thanks
 
  #65  
Old 12-01-09, 01:13 PM
rbeck's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 2,394
Upvotes: 0
Received 61 Upvotes on 51 Posts
I may have to fix the diagram in that link due to your confusion. I did not show the continuous pipe just the radiation piping. Those pipes tie into the single pipe around the basement. That diagram is just to show how an air problem can affect a monoflo system.
Here is a link of a monoflo system with radiation above and below the main.
http://www.comfort-calc.net/Info.html
 
  #66  
Old 12-01-09, 03:51 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
Oh yeh - I do have a fluketype (cheaperone) infrared thermal gun (shoots red beam) gives temperature of what pointing at.
Will it help to get some temp readings of input/output pipes at boiler ?
I did and usually looks like about 10+ degree diff most of time
Uhhhh, yeah... that's why it's been asked, more than once!

There are drawbacks to using the IR thermometers. Depending on the material you are measuring, they may or may not be completely accurate. BUT, if you are measuring the same material on both ends of the system, the RELATIVE difference is what is important.

You said you have shiny pipes? They are either painted silver, or galvanized. You won't get an accurate reading of them in all likliehood. Take some black electrical tape and wrap TIGHTLY around the pipe that you intend to measure, and take the temp of a spot on the tape.

If you are truly seeing only a 10░ difference between the supply and the return, it is very telling evidence that the 007 pump is WORKING FINE in your application.

When water moves too slowly through a heating system, it give up more heat, and returns MUCH cooler than when it enters. MOST heating systems are designed for a 20░ difference. If there is LESS than that difference (i.e. 10░) it means that the water is moving fast enough...

You need to get the bleeders fixed on the radiators, and get the air out of them.
 
  #67  
Old 12-02-09, 03:55 AM
P
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Boston Mass US
Posts: 51
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Best pic yet

Rbeck -yeh that's the best pic yet - what I expected to see in that first pic.
Only diff in my heating system is I have 2 loops (this pic shows 1 loop for the entire house.) This is really good pic.
Best Ive seen anywhere yet

So why as someone said is this monoflo type system not used much anymore ... seems to work good without any real maintenance or headaches ?
What does modern day piping with a brand new 2009 Burnham or WM boiler look like ?

Anybody with a brand new house being built with the rough plumbing visible ?

Will try the tape trick with my thermalgun and check the in/out temps
Thanks
 
  #68  
Old 12-02-09, 03:31 PM
M
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: U.S. Midwest
Posts: 1,173
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by philb00 View Post
So why as someone said is this monoflo type system not used much anymore ... seems to work good without any real maintenance or headaches ?
Same reason that black pipe isn't used much either - labor and material cost. (Copper or Pex are more popular today. Also, why is galvanized steel pipe no longer used for potable water?)

Once an HVAC technology, like Monoflo, falls out of popularity, fewer people know how to install it or even how it works - and nobody promotes it. Black Monoflo diverter tees are unavailable, unless salvaged from a house being demolished (and probably not even then, because people don't know what they are). (Copper Monoflo tees are available, and can be mixed with black pipe.)

B&G developed the Monoflo idea - cheaper than a 2-pipe system and better than a series system.

When I had an addition put on our house, the plumbers for the heating had a pipe-threading machine and a pipe cutter out in the driveway. Not quite as simple as cutting copper pipe with a tubing cutter.
 
  #69  
Old 12-02-09, 06:50 PM
rbeck's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 2,394
Upvotes: 0
Received 61 Upvotes on 51 Posts
At what water temp are you doing the system delta-T measurements? 20f is only going to be good at 180f system supply temp.
Here are some charts and a brief explanation.
http://www.comfort-calc.net/Delta-T_Charts.html
 
  #70  
Old 12-03-09, 06:14 AM
P
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Boston Mass US
Posts: 51
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Delta-T temps

Thanks Rbeck
I was taking temp with boiler only around 130-140 (kinda joging since only 45-50 outside )
I'll have to turn up the thermostat higherer to get it to 180
and will try the temp recording again.

What is black pipe or black tees ?
Does piping actually look black ?
WHat diff does shiny pipe have on the thermal gun when taking measurement ?
Why does black tape make a diff ?

So B&G invented the monoflo - too bad not used anymore - works very well in our house and for long time

What is the modern piping/heating system called today ?
Anybody with pics of a typical modern piping/heating system ?

Thanks
 
  #71  
Old 12-03-09, 08:30 AM
rbeck's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 2,394
Upvotes: 0
Received 61 Upvotes on 51 Posts
You don't need to get the water to 180f to test delta-T. You stated you had a delta-t of about 10f that is pretty close to what you should have at the temperature you tested. Look at the chart at 140f the delta is about 12f and at 130f supply water temperature it is 10f. This shows the flow is where it should be and comes back to an air problem in those rads not heating well.
Black pipe is black steel pipe. Tees are fittings with three openings two straight through and the branch is out the side.
The IR thermometers are calibrated to read on color scales. A certain shade of black works best unless you have one with a color scale to change the color of that you are shooting to read a temperature. The other thing is try to read at a turbulent flow are and not a laminar flow area. The turbulent area will give a more accurate reading than a laminar area.
 

Last edited by rbeck; 12-03-09 at 08:57 AM.
  #72  
Old 12-03-09, 03:04 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
WHat diff does shiny pipe have on the thermal gun when taking measurement ?
Why does black tape make a diff ?
The KEY term in IR thermometer accuracy is EMISSIVITY.

Want to get _really_ educated? Then read this:

Infrared temperature measurement theory and application

and refer to this table:

Emissivity Chart of common materials

Look at the emissivity of some of these materials, and notice how widely spread the values are. The closer the emissivity gets to 1.00, the more accurate the reading with the IR gun. If your pipes are shiny silver, and the material IS galvanized, which is ZINC, you will see that the reading won't be accurate at all.

Using a flat black paint to paint a measurement spot is the best approach, but black electrical tape is close enough for gummint work.

Fast forward to 2013... Phil gave up and never came back... and with all the time and effort that we all put into this, we are left with nothing... too bad. I hope Phil finally got his system working properly!
 

Last edited by NJT; 09-05-13 at 03:37 PM.
 

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: