My circ pump too small ? - Taco007 or B&G 100 ?


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Old 11-28-09, 04:31 AM
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My circ pump too small ? - Taco007 or B&G 100 ?

I am original owner a 1957 singlefloor ranch 1700 sq' house in Boston area
Have original 1957 Bryant hot water boiler singlezone hydronic sys w/ all castiron baseboard radiators upstairs & in finished basement. (think has 2 loops)
Boiler still works ok and has been Great for 50+ yrs but ...
-
The original Bell&Gosset 100 red circ pump finally broke down and local plumber replaced it with Taco 007 green circ pump.
Total part/labor was $450 - 2 guys working - seemed kinda high, i dunno ? (they were nice tho and helping me)

I think I can get a new B&G 100 red pump for maybe $240 and think maybe I can diy put it in myself ? (Im no plumber - but watched/saw plumbers put the green Taco pump in)
anyhow...

But the Taco007-F5 does not seem big/powerful as original B&G 100 pump. (specs sorta say so too )
A few radiators are not heating up as good as used to; house does not heat up now or feel as warm as with the B&G 100 pump did. for 50 yrs (its only like 45F now - worriedwhen gets 20-30 in Jan/Feb)....
Seem to also have to keep thermostat up higher now to make house feel warm. Now at 76; used to set at like 72-73 on thermostat.

This Taco 007 pump = 1/25 Hp and 22GPM or so
The B&G 100 pump = 1/12 Hp and 30GPM about on perf curves.
--
Pls help - do I need to get a new B&G 100 like I had for 50+ yrs to heat my home correctly again ?
And throw this Taco007 out ?

If I keep using this smaller size Taco pump - will the Bryant boiler have to run more/harder and get worn out even sooner ?

Need help pls - to figure the correct brand/size for the circ pump.
Want to have house feel warm as was and not wear out the boiler.
--
Related question:
The Bryant boiler is 50+ yrs old (may need to replace in few yrs)and wondering if I buy another B&G 100 pump if be able to use that pump with a new Bryant boiler (ie maybe BW1 or BW3 BW9) someday in future ?

What size circ pumps are on the Bryant BW1 or BW3 or BW9 ?

I'm thinking I may be better off going back to a new B&G 100 red pump like we always had.

Any advice really appreciate
Thanks for your help
 
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Old 11-28-09, 06:57 AM
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The B&G Series 100 and the Taco 007 are obviously very different pumps.
The B&G is built to move a lot of water against very little resistance (such as big pipes and cast iron radiators) or head pressure as it is called, and the Taco pumps against high head (small pipes, as in radiant heat or baseboard radiators).

No one can tell from here which pump is the right one for your system, but the B&G Series 100 is a relic: it needs seasonal lubrication in the field, occasional coupler replacement and it consumes a lot of wattage.
An updated replacement with similar specs would be the Taco 0010, which I use all the time.
 
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Old 11-28-09, 08:51 AM
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Taco 007 pumps are very frequently used and are usually satisfactory for small systems such as you describe.

What does the boiler temperature gauge indicate? If you have the means to measure it, what is the differential temp between the supply and return?

When the pump was replaced, was the system drained? Was air bled from the baseboards, etc.?
 
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Old 11-28-09, 09:05 AM
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A few thoughts:

After they replaced the pump, were they very careful to get all the air out of the system? It's possible that some of the circuits are partially air blocked.

Without knowing the piping scheme used, i.e. series loop, two pipe, diverter tees, it will be difficult to make much sense of the problem.

Are the rooms/rads that seem cooler on the 'end of the line' ?

To illustrate what Master is saying about the pump differences, a while back I compared a Grundfos 15-58 with the series 100... the 15-58 on speed 3 pumps a bit more than the 007, so it's 'similar', but not exact... I photoshopped the two curves together so it's easier to see the differences.



You can see from the chart that at the lower head (resistance to flow) the 100 will pump more water, and vice versa.

A way to check if you have enough flow is to measure the temperature of the supply from the boiler to the system, and then measure the temperature of the return from the system. But, you don't have these measurements with the old pump, so you have no reference point to compare.
 
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Old 11-28-09, 11:13 AM
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As far as replacing the series 100 with a 007, I agree with MasterPlvmber. It is a lousy replacement pump. As it isn't even a replacement as the pump curves are so different.

And as MasterPlvmber posted, the TACO 0010 pump is very close to the series 100 pump curve. If you go with the 0010 be sure to get one without the IFC valve. That in itself reduces the flow substantially.

Parts are available for the series 100. So depending upon what went bad it may be better to repair it. The TACO 0010 pumps are not inexpensive, which is way the 007 ended up in your system. They can be had to about $70, where the 0010 is about $240.

Al.
 
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Old 11-28-09, 11:52 AM
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Being as the pumps are completely different pumps when changing from a 3 piece (B&G 100 or Taco 110) pump to a wet rotor the pump (007) it should also move to the supply side.
The 3 piece pump moved enough water to eliminate air but the wet rotor cannot move that much water so it depends on adding pressure to the system for air elimination. This only happens pumping away from the expansion tank connection.
 
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Old 11-28-09, 12:54 PM
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Maybe best to go back to B&G 100 red pump ?

Thanks - ya know I aint certainly no plumber - but smart enough to read lots (been on B&G and lots websites for 2 wks) since got the pump replaced. Emailed some w/B&G local rep
etc etc... Watched/observed plumbers doing the work etc.
---
Oh yeh - the motor was burned out on the B&G100 pump
These guys did check w/meter - it was getting good 120v to the pump motor. But motor was dead. Not worth fixing.
About 10 yrs ago, our ole-great Plumber replaced the coupler once on it. It worked great still then again.

Also - we have 1 1/4" in/out steel pipes to the circ pump
and have all steel pipes from boiler up to radiators one flo0r ranch with finished heated basement.
No copper used back then I guess
90% of radiators are real castiron 12" high long baseboard radiators. Two radiators in kitchen and bathrm are 32" high ones. Cover about 1700 sq ft heated house.
It is one zone with 2 loops in it (I think pretty sure)

The Bryant boiler natural gas has a nice Altitude and Temp window with white and red needles which work/move as temp goes up/down (guess this is output temp ?)
I recorded/noted the temps alot over 2 weeks time
When boiler runs it gets up to mostly 140 and house feels warm. Outside is about 45-50 mostly Boiler drops back to 90-100 when we lower thermo back down in daytime to 72.
It will get up to 150-170 if want if I bump up thermostat to like 78 (but too hot in house then)
We have simple original Honeywell round dial type.
Ive been controlling it soley while testing out this new green pump
--
But these 2 plumber guys that did this job - I depended on them!! - really they should have sized/figured the correct pump the first time to put in instead of throwing the Taco007 at me.
I called them back - and still one so-called plumber (young only 10 yrs exp) claimed Taco007 and BG100 had same GPM
I nicely explained - NO - performance curves are different
and BG100 maxes out about 32GPM. Taco canonly do like 22
So obviously these guys (are nice) but really rookies and guessing. Guy admitted he never worked (or seen) a Bryant boiler. (ohh great )
(too bad these type plumbers give the trade bad name)
They certainly got enough $$ ($450) for putting in a stinkin $70-75 crappy pump
I really should have gotten the B&G100 for that amount of $$
--
I think I agree with you all there is big difference in these 2 pump particular
and big difference in the wet-rotor cartridge vs 3 piece oil lubed pumps
I am now living the proof for last 2 weeks -
Im afraid once temps hit 20-30 in Jan/Feb - (or sooner)
This lil green Taco007 wont cut the mustard like the B&G 100 red boy did for 50+ years

I certainly do not mind and did not forget for past 10+ years to 20# oil/lube the 3 ports after our oletimer-Great-Plumber told me/explained it all to me. He was GREAT but retired.

Plus I did read about this diff w/circ pump - what side of return or supply issue IF using 3 piece or newer wet-rotors
So...
actually this Taco007 is technically on wrong side now, right? (like [rbeck] pointed out)

If I put in a B&G100 red pump it will be right back exactly where it originally was and wouldnt run into this return/supply issue, right ?

--
I think I should just order online (pexsupply.com) the B&G 100 for about $230 and try to take out Taco and put in the BG100 myself.
I know B&G 100 is old technology BUT Im not so convinced on these wet-rotor cartridge pumps - havent been decades proven like the B&G 100, right?

The 2 plumberguys said they would come back if I want and put in BG100 for me and take out green Taco (and they keep/take back) and not charge me much really for the labor (all over again) I still have to shell out more $$$ for the labor
(they aint doing it for free or even swap)

I will have to eat the $450 I paid these plumber/guys for the green Taco

Should I get them to do it or can DIY it myself w/my brother/Dad's help ?
Really cant afford to spend lots more $$$ on this thing.

At least I will know what Im getting w/B&G and I think that B&G really has their sh*t together and has been around a LONG LONG time
Their website has every/tons of online docs/info on it
and can get replacement parts for it easily.

It seems this 1957 old Bryant boiler match(ed) up good with the B&G 100 red pump and performed very well to last 50+ years and gives us all happy/good heat, especially for Mom
She has to be happy or I'm in trouble for sure.

Thanks

PS... I looked up - B&G even makes a "newer" dry-rotor small-type pump called PL30 (perm-lubricated) and it has 1/12 Hp and bout same 30 GPM like BG100 does.
But I'll bet this pump is way more $$$ than the rest.

PSS... Do you think I could use the B&G 100 red pump with a brand new Bryant or other modern boiler (planning ahead if boiler finally lets go and have to get new one; may only last another 5 yrs or more I hope) ??
I've seen some pics here and looks like new boilers all use the newer small cartridge pumps only
Is that right ?
 

Last edited by NJT; 11-28-09 at 08:34 PM.
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Old 11-28-09, 01:34 PM
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You're comparing the runout point of the two pumps - gpm at zero head. Meaningless.

Here are the two pump curves: Pump Curves

http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/Fil...ry/101-029.pdf

I'm guessing the ideal operating point would be less than about 12.5 gpm, delivering 120,000 Btu/hr at 20 deg drop. At that point, and for all flows below, the Taco's curve is above that of the B&G.

I honestly think we're getting a bit too worked up here. Most likely, there is air in the system.

And what you were charged does not seem all that out of line to me. Two plumbers for how many hours?
 

Last edited by Mike Speed 30; 11-28-09 at 03:09 PM.
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Old 11-28-09, 01:57 PM
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Air was bleeded out number of times - get water

Thanks - but cant really be meaningless - it does represent something to compare apples to apples to show the max limit of all these sundries of pumps... maybe not pratical but at least a max point on the charts to look at.
---
The plumberguys did check/recheck/tried to bleed out air in kitchen/bathrm at the higher 32" high radiators after installing green pump and
I did it myself lots of times -
And nothing at all but water comes out - no air.
All radiators are working and get hot - except the 2 tall ones dont get as hot as they used when B&G red pump was working.
---

Isnt it also kinda big deal (negative/bad) now that this green Taco is basically on wrong side of boiler - since was simply plopped in at same spot as the B&G's original spot where the B&G red pump was on the Return side (correct for a 3 piece pump) ? But not so for wet-rotor type ?

I think [rbeck] was pointing this out and I read stuff on this too saying same thing.

At least the boiler/rad system is not now that/as efficient as was/had been when had BG 100 red pump in place. Right ?
Because of above ?

Can anyone answer some of my other questions I had too ?
Thanks
 

Last edited by NJT; 11-28-09 at 08:36 PM.
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Old 11-28-09, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by philb00
Thanks - but can't really be meaningless - it does represent something to compare apples to apples to show the max limit of all these sundries of pumps... maybe not pratical but at least a max point on the charts to look at.
There is really only one point on the pump curve that is very important - the operating point. That point is determined by the intersection of the system flow resistance curve and the pump curve. The proper pump selection is a function more of the system resistance curve (i.e., the piping system) than the boiler.

Also, comparing the horsepower of the two pumps is not particularly significant. The maximum delivered hp is determined at high flow, near the runout point - and since the B&G pump has a higher runout flow, its motor has to have a higher hp rating. The lower hp of the Taco 007 will allow that pump to operate more efficiently at the normal operating point.

There are many installations with a wet-rotor pump on the "wrong" side of the expansion tank that operate satisfactorily (including mine). The Taco 007 operates at a higher speed (3250 rpm) than the Series 100 (1725 rpm). Possibly, the Taco has a higher required net positive suction head (NPSHR) than the B&G. But if the Taco pump isn't cavitating, I wouldn't worry about. (If it were cavitating, you would know it - sounds like marbles being pumped).

I would raise the pressure up to about 25 psi (hot) and let the ailr removal device(s) do their job. Then lower the pressure back down, and rebleed. As Furd points out, a monoflo system, if that is what you have, can be difficult to bleed.
 

Last edited by Mike Speed 30; 11-28-09 at 03:40 PM.
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Old 11-28-09, 03:23 PM
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I'm going to have to agree with Mike Speed, comparing the two pump curves at their end points is meaningless in the real world. And just for the record I'll state that I'm no kid when it comes to hydronics, I worked with hydronic heating systems, albeit commercial and industrial sized systems, for more than thirty years before I retired.

rbeck is correct that ideally the Taco pump should be on the boiler discharge with the expansion tank connection on the suction side of the pump but there are literally thousands of systems piped just as yours and they work quite well. Unless your system was at the design limits of a 007 pump (doubtful) you should have no problems either. The "wet rotor" (canned or cartridge) type of pump has been in service for more than forty years and it IS a proven design. The B&G style of three-piece pumps are almost bullet proof but they DO have some problems that are cured by use of the cartridge-type pump. While the Taco 007 may not be the ideal pump for your system going back to a three-piece pump would be a step backwards in my opinion.

As someone else pointed out air in the system is most likely the cause of your problem. Just because you are not bleeding air from the radiator vents does not mean there is no air in your system. Also, as Trooper pointed out we do not know the piping configuration of your system. 1957 would be an ideal year for you to have Monoflo tees in the system and these can prove to be problematic when it comes to removing all the air.

You have not told us what pressure the boiler is operating at and the temperatures you mentioned may be a little low depending on what control system is installed. I think it is time for pictures of the piping system and some pressure statistics when the boiler is at operating temperature and also when cold.

To post pictures you need to first upload the pictures to a photo hosting site such as photobucket.com or villagephotos.com. and then post the public URLs for the pictures (or album) here. More pictures are always better than fewer. Please have CLEAR pictures and have both close up pictures and ones from a far enough distance that we can see how the various parts are interconnected.
 

Last edited by NJT; 11-28-09 at 08:38 PM.
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Old 11-28-09, 03:39 PM
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It was rbeck who suggested the new pump should be on the supply side. There are reasons for his suggestion, and well founded, but there are MILLIONS of systems out there that are operating well with the same situation as yours...

There are many installations with a wet-rotor pump on the "wrong" side of the expansion tank that operate satisfactorily (including mine).
And Mike's, and Mine.

but cant really be meaningless - it does represent something to compare apples to apples to show the max limit of all these sundries of pumps... maybe not pratical but at least a max point on the charts to look at.
Actually, you are not comparing apples to apples if you are only comparing the run out of the pumps. As Mike said, the number you are looking at is what the pump would move if it were sitting on a bench with no pipe on the outlet, and sucking water from a big bucket right next to it. ZERO HEAD, means that is the absolute maximum that the pump can move with NO RESTRICTION AT ALL.

Real world, it ain't so... the pump is pumping into a piping system that represents restriction, or resistance to flow. The difference in all these pumps is how they deal with that resistance (also called HEAD).

I re-did my graph to show the 007 pump curve, versus the 100 pump curve on the same scaling. Because the scale factors are very different in the two charts that Mike pointed to, the curves also look very different. With equal scaling, you will see that they really are not that much different... up to a point... and the point is that your system would NEVER pump 20 or 30 GPM anyway! 10 to 12 GPM is probably the most that you will even WANT to move... if that much.



In general, you want to pump 1 GPM for every 10K BTU of your boiler output. So, if your boiler is say 120K, your DESIRE should be to pump 12 GPM. Looking at the similarity of the pump curves at that 12 GPM point, there is very little difference.

You would do well to measure the temperature of the supply versus the return. This would remove all doubt as to whether the pump was performing adequately or not. If the temp difference is somewhere around 20-30 degrees, you are moving enough water, and the problem is AIR in the rads...
 
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Old 11-28-09, 03:52 PM
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Trooper's graph of the two pump curves is very helpful. Over any reasonable operating flow rate, they are essentially equivalent and reasonably flat.

A flat operating curve has an advantage: the flow through the boiler will be more or less constant as zone valves open/close, balancing valves are adjusted, or as heat emitters are added to or removed from the system.

This thread began by asking if the Taco 007 was "too small." In my opinion, the answer is No. ("Large" and "small" can be a bit ambiguous for pumps, but we know what you mean. The pump curve tells it all.)

My hunch is that your plumbers have been installing 007s successfully for other similarly sized and configured systems - even if they haven't sat down and studied the characteristic curves. I suspect that there may be as many or more 007s used for residential replacements than the total number of other residential B&G and Taco pumps combined. A plumber could do worse than using 007s for most residential applications.

Me? I have a relatively large house that originally had a B&G HV pump. I replaced it with a Taco 009, which matches an HV pretty closely - on the boiler return with the conventional expansion tank on the boiler supply. An 007 probably would have worked OK, but with a bit higher delta T.

By the way, there is no assurance that the originally installed pump in any legacy system was optimumally sized, any more than the boiler itself.

Interestingly, many new boilers are sold with a circulator (most often a Taco 007). Yet, to be "right on the money," the pump should be selected based on an analysis of the piping system's flow-resistance curve. (Mostly, it's probably us on this forum that would be inclined to do that! And then, insist that others should do it, too ) Evidently, most boiler manufacturers don't expect their installers to do the analysis, so they just ship their boilers with an 007, and call it good. And it usually is. If installers of new boilers don't run the analysis, it's hard to expect a plumber, replacing a broken pump, to do it.
 

Last edited by Mike Speed 30; 11-28-09 at 04:53 PM.
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Old 11-28-09, 04:47 PM
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To answer your DIY question if you are handy you can do it yourself. Keep in mind that you may have to repipe again because the distance between the flanges may have changed, along with the flanges themselves. The wiring will be the same. As was mentioned the 0010 has the criteria you are looking for. According to the 100 curve you need a pump with more gpm's and not much head as the 100 tops out at 8ft. The 007 should never have been put in. What are they going to give you for the pump they so generously are going to take back. You mentioned 10yrs. experience. That's no excuse. If they are conciencious they would would have done just what you did, with no experience and cross reference the pump to find the right one. If you decide to go with a 0010 it will fit in the same location without any repiping. As far as your pump going on the supply side as rbeck mentioned, it is better if you can do it but in you your case you need to move more water and not overcome resistance so it's almost a non issue. As far as a new boiler goes you can use any pump that you put in now with a new one. They generally come with one but that doesn't mean it's the right one for the job. I did a job similar to what you have and had to change the pump that came with the job for the right one.
 

Last edited by NJT; 11-28-09 at 08:44 PM.
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Old 11-28-09, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by spot8
The 007 should never have been put in.
If the B&G Series 100 pump was performing satisfactorily, Trooper's curves show that the 007 will too.

I think we're getting a little carried away here.
 
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Old 11-28-09, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by spot8
As far as your pump going on the supply side as Trooper mentioned, it is better if you can do it but in you your case you need to move more water and not overcome resistance so it's almost a non issue.
I haven't read anything so far that leads me to conclude that the flow rate is inadequate. Please tell me if I'm missing something.

The differential pressure across the pump will be the same whether it's on the boiler return or the supply. So will the pump's flow rate.

Based on what I know now, I would stay with the Taco 007.
 

Last edited by Mike Speed 30; 11-28-09 at 05:46 PM.
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Old 11-28-09, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Speed 30
If the B&G Series 100 pump was performing satisfactorily, Trooper's curves show that the 007 will too.

I think we're getting a little carried away here.
You may want to look at the curves again. A TACO 007 isn't even close to a replacement for a B&G Series 100.

Which is also backed up by the lack of heat in Phil's system.

So by either manufactures spec's, or by empirical evidence. The 007 is no match to the Series 100.

Al.
 
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Old 11-28-09, 05:40 PM
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Al, what pump curves are you looking at? The ones that Mike posted from both manufacturers sites are on the curve chart above. The 100 is the black, and the 007 is the red... plotted point for point on the same scale chart.
 
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Old 11-28-09, 05:52 PM
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He said that all the radiators are working fine, except for two. I don't think that suggests a problem with the pump. More likely, air.

I feel sorry for the plumber being dragged back to replace the Taco pump with a B&G 100, of all things - especially if based on the postings here. After it's replaced, I expect that you will have the same problem with the two radiators.
 
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Old 11-28-09, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by NJ Trooper
Al, what pump curves are you looking at? The ones that Mike posted from both manufacturers sites are on the curve chart above. The 100 is the black, and the 007 is the red... plotted point for point on the same scale chart.
I am looking at three curves: the B&G Series 100, the TACO 007, and the recommended TACO 0010 pump.

I guess I'll have to put the three curves together on a graph and post them. Along with the typical head for a system that Phil has. Seems to be that is the sticking point.

Just for S&G, compare the GPM at 4' of head.

Al.
 
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Old 11-28-09, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Speed 30
He said that all the radiators are working fine, except for two. I don't think that suggests a problem with the pump. More likely, air.

I feel sorry for the plumber being dragged back to replace the Taco pump with a B&G 100, of all things - especially if based on the postings here. After it's replaced, I expect that you will have the same problem with the two radiators.
Why shouldn't the plumber be called back in? He/they replaced a broken pump with a pump that was supposed to operate the same as before. And if it doesn't then they are at fault.

Why is it on the homeowner that PAID someone to fix THE PROBLEM responsible for the lack of heat??

The "FIXER'S" of the original problem are RESPONSIBLE for fixing what they were ALREADY PAID to FIX. If it IS NOT FIXED, then why did they TAKE THE MONEY?

Al.
 
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Old 11-28-09, 07:13 PM
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I guess I'll have to put the three curves together on a graph
Hasn't that already been done with the 007 and the 100?

I agree that if they didn't bleed the system properly that they should come back and do so... for no charge.

Here's the thing, and it's been said a few times:

ONLY TWO OF THE RADS ARE NOT AS HOT!

How is that a pump problem?

I'm betting it's a monoflo system... and there is AIR in the system.

What would be the real shame is if they came back, charged more money, and it didn't fix the problem... and IF that happens, shame on whoever is encouraging Phil to do that... and THOSE people are the ones that should be cutting Phil a check.
 
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Old 11-28-09, 07:19 PM
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Taco FAQ

Q. My home has 2 heating zones with one B&G 100 pump. There is about 140 feet of baseboard on the first floor. Will the 007 pump work for us or should we get the 110?

If you were going to use the pump for a 20 GPM application, I would use a 110 or a 0010. For most heating applications, a 007 puts out more head up to 13 GPM (130,000 BTU/Hr. boiler), at which point the pumps are equal. Most heating systems don't use more than 13 GPM, and if the system is piped properly and doesn't need much head, the 007 could pump farther out on its performance curve.
This is from the TACO website...
 
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Old 11-28-09, 07:37 PM
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Save ya the trouble...

Here's all three pumps, equal scaling...

 
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Old 11-28-09, 07:54 PM
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My comment, based on Trooper's pump curves: case closed.
 
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Old 11-28-09, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by OldBoiler
Just for S&G, compare the GPM at 4' of head.
What is the significance of that particular operating point? Is it within the reasonably expected head/flow? No.
 
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Old 11-28-09, 08:06 PM
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Just to belabor a point... here's one more graphic:



With each of these three arbitrary system curves, what is the GPM difference between any of the three pumps?

A: Not much...
 
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Old 11-28-09, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by NJ Trooper
With each of those three arbitrary system curves, what is the GPM difference between any of the three pumps?
Essentially insignificant. The actual system curve could be between any of those shown, depending upon the details of the system piping, which are, at this point, unknown.

Based on the information known, the Taco 007 is a very reasonable choice. If just two of the rads are not totally hot, it's not a pump problem.

Certainly, there are many plumbers, called to replace a bad circulaltor, that don't really understand the specifics of pump characteristic curves. Some of us on this forum don't either, I fear. I think we need to be a little realistic here.

But, whatever, we need to move on, and hopefully this homeowner will let his poor plumber off the hook. As originally asked, is the Taco 007 too "small?" No.
 

Last edited by Mike Speed 30; 11-28-09 at 08:40 PM.
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Old 11-29-09, 02:52 AM
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Geez still not convinced one way or other

Geez still sounds like 50/50 almost - Thanks all and respect your opinions... but not think I got a clear black/white answer at all.... lot of grey here.

OleBoiler says Taco007 is not an equal substitute for BG100
BUt others like MS30 and Trooper say it is...
Dont know really what to think... Im yoyo going back /forth
I guess Im kinda old-school and believe/trust more in the timetested BellGossett company than Taco
How long has Taco company in RI been around ?
Bet not as long as B&G
How good/bad does B&G or Taco respond back to Plumbers or owners about problems with their pumps ?
Any info on the Warranties given on the
B&G 100 and the Taco 007 pumps ?

One thing I know is - I lived 50 yrs with the B&G 100 pump and seen how good it does. Know nothing about Taco007

Someone called BG100 a relic.
But how can you say - when B&G is still manufacturing
since 1946 up to 2009 continuously year after year
There must be good reason - like people want them/trust/use them lots.
---
Maybe I should just leave this Taco7 alone and leave it in as is and see how long it last and esp see what happens this Winter when the temps drop down to 10-20 degrees in Jan/Feb
But I hate to see the boiler be busting it nuts all winter running nonstop or every 5 minutes just because maybe the Taco7 cant pump out the water like the BG100 could/did to all the radiators for 50 years and keep the thermostat satisfied to whatever its set at.
My gut feeling and my Mom is that this Taco7 is not the equal/same as the BG100 red pump was.
We seem to have to keep the Thermostat at least 2-3 degrees set higher now than ever did before.
---
The "poor" plumber ? off the hook ? someone said
C'mon really! - they got good $450 money to do a job and they didnt do it correctly the first time -
Plumbers are supposed to be professional and licensed/certified, right? I really wonder about these 2 guys.
If I asked them to show me their license - would they ? Would you guys ? Do you have to ? Do you carry it on you ?

I think these plumbers do/did owe me to do this job a little more carefully.
My confidence in them is loww because:
- they did not really look over/measure the amount/length of radiators we had first - I dragged them upstairs to show them
Just threw in a Taco7
- plumber mumbled stuff about maybe Taco7 or 110 or ummmm... when figuring it out topofhishead.
(when I heard Taco - Im thinking I hate those chips Ilike Lays)
- plumber shocked himself when putting in the Taco7 - said he forgot to shut off Thermostat and touch the wire - even tho boiler switch was off
- not familar with Taco7 that could flip over the elec connector to other side so to fit in upagainst boiler
( I even read this on paper instructions came in the Taco box)
- they did not prime or open cw fill valve prior to starting pump so heard loud knocking/banging sound for 15 seconds until I (me) shut off circuit breaker
- They did in their favor test with meter the 120v elec circuit to make sure BG100 had good power before pulling it out
- plumber mumbled Ive never seen a Bryant boiler before
- plumbing company office mgr said this plumber guy we had was most 1oyrs experieced and has his Oil license
(what good does that do me - I got Natural gas here )?

Soooo I dont/didnt have lots of confidence in their technical skills/knowhow - but at least were very NICE and willing to work
on it.
But I think I need to find a plumber who really knows better castiron radiators with Gas boilers
They were nice and said they wanted to make me happy with it... would comeback and put in BG100 pump
if I get it myself (thinkI can cheaper online) and they take back Taco007 and "not charge me much"
But Im thinking - why do I really need them again - I know a lot about the 2 pumps - Im no Plumber for sure but...
I'll either try get some $$ from the plumbing supply myself who sold it or maybe try Ebay or just keep as backup (since I already shelled out $450 for the this whole fiasco)...
---
I read I think on BG site - about hydronics/pumps in general it is said that Hp of motor is number 1 factor in determining I think (something) with the circ pumps (maybe I can find that and link it here)... So BG100 wins out easily there at 1/12 Hp
--
My Bryant boiler is rated on mfg plate says (I think):
157,000 BTU output
so I guess that means looking for around 15 GPM would be good/best ?
---
I will measure tomorrow all my full length total of castiron radiators and get better facts there
THis is all 1 1/4" steel pipe stuff - Should I also include/measure all the long runs of visible pipes in basement which are primary and tee off upstairs into the radiators ?
---
I will try to get some pics to help see things better
---
How do you raise the pressure to 25 psi - someone suggested ? Why do this ?
I think just by raising the Thermostat to like 78 Ive seen boiler
white needle (altitude) go up to like 18 along with the Temp white needle to like 180degrees.

The front face of Bryant boiler has two needle readings listed as:
1. ALtitude (red needle hardly ever moves stays on 30)
and a moving (sometimes not often) white needle mostly on 13
(maybe this is the boiler pressure ?)
2. Temperature (white needle ) moves up down as much as boiler comes on/off. Usually now it runs between 100 and 140 degrees with thermo set at 74 (for the 140)
---
How supposed to properly bleed the system ?
The plumbers did nothing but come upstairs and check/try to open 3 easily accessible radiators (but most rad's bleeders are frozen/closed) and prob best not to touch anyhow -may cause bigger issue with snapping/leaking)
Is there way to get mass air out of single zone 2 loop steel pipe system from some valve/fawcett ?
Like using the overhead expansion tank ?
---
Will using a undersized/smaller circ pump make a boiler
run more often thereby stressing it /work harder and wear the boiler out sooner ?
Will counting the number of times the boiler turns on/off in 1 hour give me some idea how hard/easy the boiler/pump is doing ?

---
I took these straight off the perf curve charts:
HeadFT Taco BG100
0' 23gpm 33gpm
4' 17gpm 25gpm
6' 13gpm 18 gpm
8' 8gpm 2gpm

Once headft hits over 6' bigdrop in the BG100 GPM
But at 6' or less the BG100 can pump lots more water

Hope you can answer some more of my questions
Thanks alot
 

Last edited by philb00; 11-29-09 at 03:00 AM. Reason: correction
  #30  
Old 11-29-09, 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted by philb00
Thanks all and respect your opinions... but not think I got a clear black/white answer at all.... lot of grey here.
There isn't any "grey" here, whatsoever.

If you liked how the system performed using the Series 100 pump, and the system is underperforming with the 007, then based on the curve charts provided by NJ Trooper, the flow required through the system is more closely met by either the Taco 0010 or another Series 100.

How you proceed in dealing with your plumber is up to you.

FWIW, I use Taco pumps all the time.
Here is a recent project of mine with 27 zones of heat, all requiring different flow rates:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gateway...ng/4142708205/
 
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Old 11-29-09, 03:56 AM
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couldnt see photo

MasterPlvmber
Thanks I tried the link but got:
This photo is private.

I checked your website - AWESOME and seen your photo gallery
Wish I could have you come over and do this pump thing for me.

Will using a smaller/undersize pump usually make the boiler to have work/stress harder than if had good/correct size pump ?

I did notice I saw lots of green Tacos in your pictures.
So you're not big fan of B&G ?
Or do you use them too ? Why or why not ?

Is it same in Plumbing business - where if you buy from mostly one supplier like Taco or B&G and buy lots in volume
The company gives back bonus points or awards or free trips to the Plumber ?

I know it happens like with Golf and the greenskeepers Superintendent gets rewards/trips/gifts back from Toro or JohnDeere depending how much/often they buy from them.

It makes me wonder if the homeowner will get a staright honest answer/work done by a tradesman when they are sorta in favor of one supplier or another.

Do plumbers get any rewards bonuses gifts from these
boiler or pump companies ?
 
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Old 11-29-09, 04:23 AM
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How supposed to properly bleed the system ?
The plumbers did nothing but come upstairs and check/try to open 3 easily accessible radiators (but most rad's bleeders are frozen/closed) and prob best not to touch anyhow -may cause bigger issue with snapping/leaking)
Okay, so the system has NOT been completely bled out. To reiterate what Mike and others have said several times - it is most likely an air problem. I've replaced 100's with 007's on "standard" systems for many years with no problems.

And NO, we don't get "kickbacks" for pushing one brand over another. I personally take offense at that remark.
 
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Old 11-29-09, 04:25 AM
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Plumbers and license

Do plumbers carry their license on them on the job ?
If I ask the guy working if he is licensed or will he show it to me - would he be insulted ?
Do you have to show it to homeowner if asked ?

Seems maybe to me some plumbing companies send out some workers who maybe are just apprentice plumbers or not licensed at all and just learning and the real Master Plumber is the owner of the company and is sitting back inoffice (or his home) and only really comes out to homes when his junior guys run into problems.

Is this how some do it ?

My case seems to be like that - two guys show up - I cant tell who is senior or junior or if even licensed or Master or what ?
How do you know ?
Just take their word for it or whatever bs they may say ?

What by law or code says a licensed Master or what? type plumber can touch the boiler/pipes/pumps etc ?

Does the person even have to be licensed ?

In Massachusetts we can look up by name or license number the plumber and shows if active or current or revoked etc

Does the license even really mean anything/much ?
What ?

Does local town bldg inspector enforce/watch over this all ?
Will they come out and inspect/check work done by plumbers for even a little repair ?

Thanks for explaining it all
 

Last edited by GregH; 11-29-09 at 05:55 AM. Reason: Moderator note: Since your question relates to the problems you are currently having I merged a separate thread with one you have going on the same topic.
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Old 11-29-09, 04:30 AM
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Thanks for the kind words. I reset the access to the pic in the link.

(edited to add) Insufficient flow through the boiler may cause it to short-cycle, reducing efficiency and increasing wear on the controls.

Taco as well as most other manufacturers does offer incentives to purchase their products, but mostly I like the completeness, if that's a word, of the product line.
They have pumps to suit every curve requirement, pump relays and a full line of hydronic specialties; especially for my residential needs. They're also a family-owned and operated company, as is mine, and the president of the company knows me and my company by name.
There is nothing wrong with B&G. They're an outstanding company with an unparalleled history of service to the heating industry. It's just a personal preference.
 

Last edited by MasterPlvmber; 11-29-09 at 04:34 AM. Reason: to add answer to "stress" question
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Old 11-29-09, 04:41 AM
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So how do ya do it ?

So how do ya properly bleed the system ?

Dont take offense - maybe you're one of the honest ones - it does go on in other businesses like I said in Golfworld and Im sure other lines of work
It does in computers - IBM will wine/dine a customer and give all kinds of discount/concessions to get a customer to buy rather than go with lets say HP
And maybe it's not so bad thing esp if Plumber gets to be expert with one vendor and can pass on some savings too to the customer and provide a better srvc/end-result.
So I guess it may not always be a bad thing

Question just being asked - if it does happen or not
Some may know about it maybe or not

Thanks
 
  #36  
Old 11-29-09, 06:35 AM
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Good grief. This thread is all over the place.

Before we start blaming the pump and whatever else, can we please have a good description (and better yet, pictures) of the near-boiler and distribution piping? Thirty-six posts into the thread and we still don't yet know what kind of distribution system this is.


philb00, B&G and Taco are two of the oldest names in U.S. hydronics. Both have been around nearly a century. They make quality products.

The Taco 007 is perhaps the most widely used circulator in the U.S. It has been around a long time, is very reliable, has a performance curve that is well suited to many residential applications, and is the pump that is included in many major boiler manufacturer's packaged systems. Not saying that it's right for your system (yet), but since you seem concerned with bona fides, it has them.
 

Last edited by NJT; 11-29-09 at 09:19 AM. Reason: bolded, cuz this is IMPORTANT!
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Old 11-29-09, 07:14 AM
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Someone here is assuming it is a monoflo system and that means a higher head system. Someone Else is blaming air. I posted pump should be moved. Others say many are on the return. Than the air issue again. Many wet rotor pumps on return does not make it right. Air or flow issues bot come back to the pump! If it is a monoflo system it has a higher resistance than a baseboard system.
It worked OK before. If it is a flow issue it is a pump issue. If it is an air issue it still is a pump (location) problem. The reason to move the pump is air elimination.
I have seen many problems with trying to bleed the monoflo system and just cause you get water does not mean there is not an air problem. You could trap air it a horizontal pipe and the water moves up the other pipe.
With pumping away it may take awhile but the air will go away.
I have to agree with xiphias we need pictures and determine what type of system he has.
 
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Old 11-29-09, 09:59 AM
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Yes... all over the place...

And the questions that I asked in my FIRST post still beg answers, and others have asked the same questions several times since.

Phil, you are asking so many questions that it is impossible for all of them to be answered and maintain a logical flow of information.

Can we please put aside the discussion about plumbing licenses and such? It serves no purpose calling anyone's credentials into question, at least not here. All yer gonna do is piss someone off. So we'll forget that part. If that does continue, I'm going to delete those posts without question, just to keep the thread as on track as possible.

I feel that the original question has been answered, not only by some here, but also by the MANUFACTURER, Taco.

There are very valid reasons to consider Rbeck's points about moving the pump. Most of those reasons involve modern thought in hydronic design, and are IMPROVEMENTS to the system.

The reality is though, that in all likeliehood, and in my (and others) opinions, that the 007 can and is an adequate replacement for the 100 in MANY (not all) cases, yours included.

Until you get us the info we need to make informed judgements (i.e. the TYPE of distribution system) it's impossible to say for certain if the 007 will work in your system.

All the 'scientific' data on the different pumps has been presented, we all know what each of them can do, so there's no need to discuss that any further.

Last but first... NO judgement can be made until we know that the REST of the system is up to snuff. You've stated that many of the bleeders were not opened. It can't be stated that the system is air-free, and until that is true, no discussion of the pump should take place.

Let's use a Golf analogy, since it seems you like golf.

I ask the pro why I can't putt straight... he checks my grip, my stance, all that stuff... but never once does he look to see if my putter is straight!
 
  #39  
Old 11-29-09, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by philb00
THis is all 1 1/4" steel pipe stuff - Should I also include/measure all the long runs of visible pipes in basement which are primary and tee off upstairs into the radiators ?

Since you admit to not being a plumber how are you determining that your piping is all 1-1/4 inch size? Are you measuring the outside diameter of the pipe at 1-1/4 inches? If you are measuring the outside diameter then you most likely have one-inch nominal piping. One-inch would be very common for the size and age of your system.
---
I will try to get some pics to help see things better
Pictures will help immensely.
---
How do you raise the pressure to 25 psi - someone suggested ? Why do this ?
To raise the pressure in the system requires re-adjustment of the pressure reducing valve, the so-called "automatic fill valve". Raising the pressure will compress the air bubbles to a smaller size and help in air removal.

The front face of Bryant boiler has two needle readings listed as:
1. ALtitude (red needle hardly ever moves stays on 30)
and a moving (sometimes not often) white needle mostly on 13
(maybe this is the boiler pressure ?)
The red needle is not moving at all, it is merely a manually movable pointer to indicate the highest pressure allowable in the system.

2. Temperature (white needle ) moves up down as much as boiler comes on/off. Usually now it runs between 100 and 140 degrees with thermo set at 74 (for the 140)
This is entirely normal. As the boiler fires more often the temperature may rise even higher. Your system has a lot of water in it and it takes time to raise the temperature that entire amount of water. If the boiler were to fire long enough it would likely rise to 180 degrees or even a bit higher before stopping the burner operation.
---
How supposed to properly bleed the system ?
The plumbers did nothing but come upstairs and check/try to open 3 easily accessible radiators (but most rad's bleeders are frozen/closed) and prob best not to touch anyhow -may cause bigger issue with snapping/leaking)
Is there way to get mass air out of single zone 2 loop steel pipe system from some valve/fawcett ?
Like using the overhead expansion tank ?
Without pictures of your system it is impossible to state exactly how to bleed the air.
---
Will using a undersized/smaller circ pump make a boiler
run more often thereby stressing it /work harder and wear the boiler out sooner ?
No! The boiler is NOT like a sedentary office worker who occasionally has to run to catch the bus. The boiler is a piece of machinery that is made to operate continuously. The fact that your boiler does NOT operate continuously even in the coldest weather is because it is many times too large for the heat loss of your house. This oversizing of boilers was very common when it was installed.

Will counting the number of times the boiler turns on/off in 1 hour give me some idea how hard/easy the boiler/pump is doing ?
No, the number of time the boiler and pump cycles is an indication of the heat loss from your house and the amount the boiler is oversized for the house.

---
I took these straight off the perf curve charts:
HeadFT Taco BG100
0' 23gpm 33gpm
4' 17gpm 25gpm
6' 13gpm 18 gpm
8' 8gpm 2gpm

Once headft hits over 6' bigdrop in the BG100 GPM
But at 6' or less the BG100 can pump lots more water
Just because the B&G can pump more water does not mean that the Taco is too small. The Bell & Gossett 100 series was the standard pump used in residential heating systems in 1957. Very few residential heating systems use a particular pump at the extreme limits of its performance curve and your system is no different. While the Taco 007 does not have an identical "pump curve" to the B&G 100 the plain simple fact is that it is highly doubtful that your particular system is outside the performance curve of the Taco 007. Your problem, like most residential hydronic heating system problems is one of air in the system. I'll stake my reputation on that.

Hope you can answer some more of my questions
Thanks alot
mio0ujwioehrbfnoskiger[qpjhui9rfhgjkdspkvldgfh[lwrj
 
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Old 11-29-09, 11:34 AM
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Some answers - it wasnt me

NJTrooper - First I did not put my License question into this long thread
Look at note at bottom of it - Greg somebody out it into the mix here. I made it a separate thread and it was subsequently mixed in here. I didnt want to clutter this one up and wanted a generic answer tomy question (not trying to piss anyone either - it's a legitimate info for homeowner to know how Plumbing works)
---
I dont have to BE a real plumber to measure the pipes , do I?
I simply took tape measure and measured the diameter or bolier's output/return steep pipes and it comes to 1 1/4"
(not 1" nor 1 1/2" for sure)
---
I will try get pics - dont have a digital camera
--
It was never said the boiler is oversized - some are just already stating/assuming that
--
I never said the boiler cycles alot and never said how it performs in middle of winter - it is still late Fall and only lik 45-55 (today) outside.
The boiler does run pretty much steady during dead of winter for past many years when I had the BG100 pump
Yet to know (for sure) how boiler/pump will do come this Jan/Feb
---
What is a monflow system ?
Since I dont have digital camera and hard to post pics -
Can someone point out any pics of something like I have
Natural gas hot water boiler with steel pipes or something close ? Maybe BG 100 pump ?

---
I get feeling most plumbers really like Taco pumps because less headaches where no oiling and lighter easier to just throw this generic pump in (and like I thought) it alomost automatically comes packaged into most all new boilers.
--

Sorry to drag out the thread - but I do have a lot of questions
and most have been answered and appreciate you all for
trying to help me
Thanks
 
 

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