From what I understood an indoor sensor will make the 260 more accurate and the system will respond better to heat demand, specially if you have solar gain issue with the outdoor sensor.
Speaking of solar gain, It must be ok to use multiple outdoor sensors to get more accurate outside temperature. As long as the equivelant resistance is 10K ohms but then at least 4 sensors are needed.

Beer 4U2

 

Did anybody implement a constat circulation system. Keeping the circulators runnign 24/7 and lowering the boiler high limit. The theory behinded is to achieve a very constant temp inside the building. Everything inside the building will be warm including furniture, walls and floors. The water volume that need to be heated is much larger which means that the burner will stay on for longer. But Inot sure what this will do to the ciculators.

Beer 4U2

 

Yup. Constant circulation here. The only things that cause the circulators to shut off are 1) solar gain and/or 2) when the supply water temperature falls below 80F due to solar gain, warming outdoor temperature, etc. I use 80F because the fin-tube doesn't really output useful heat until about 85F, but it's good for the control (tekmar 260) to have flow past the sensor to monitor the supply temperature.

It is a totally weather-responsive system. The outdoor reset curve is essentially abandoned in favor of the indoor sensor, which tracks the actual heat requirement via the indoor temperature. So 30F and sunny can have a different supply temperature than 30F and dark, or 30F, sunny and windy, etc., and it varies throughout the day/night/etc. The space temperature fluctuation is within about 1-1.5F.

The house gets a lot of solar gain so it's really only 'constant' circulation during long periods of cold, cloudy weather between late Dec and mid-Feb.

IMHO, the indoor sensor really makes this control. It helps to have the ability to full or nearly full reset capability. Not sure how much the indoor sensor would benefit a partial reset situation. It would have to figure out how to optimize cycling with warmer water than needed. Probably would do ok after a while of accumulating 'error' data.

The indoor sensor also allows good recovery from overnight setback, unlike a 'dialed in to the limit' standard ODR curve which has little reserve for setback recovery.

 

xiphias,
What do you have the tekmar hi and low limits set to? are you keeping the circulators running by setting the thermostat to a higher temp than you need?

Beer 4U2

 

BOIL MIN is 80F. BOIL MAX, I forget. Probably around 160. But it never goes above 145.

Correct. The tekmar setpoint is 68F. The room stats are set to 69F. They are simple LUX500 stats that generate a continuous call for heat (no cycles per hour setting). As above, they only stop calling due to solar gain, occupancy/cooking gain, or warmer outdoor temps when heat is not needed.

I use another LUX500 near the control as the setback timer. It serves as a simple programmable on/off by setting it to ridiculously high temp (closes circuit on terminals 13/14 to activate UNOCC), or ridiculously low temp (opens circuit to activate OCC).

The little blue box is pretty simple and inexpensive relative to what it can do, particularly with the indoor sensor. The autodiff seems to work quite well, the firing cycles are very predictable and seem to be efficient.

 

I might have to use more than one indoor sensor because I have 6 zones.

Beer 4U2

 

I cancelled the order for the intellicon. I'll be using a tekmar 260

 

Before you go leaping for the 260, think about how your current boiler is or is not equipped to deal with a wide range of reset temperatures. And whether a single, or even a set of bridged indoor sensors would give you sufficient heating/comfort in the various zones. (In my situation, it's two zones with an open floor plan, and I spent some serious time with temperature data loggers figuring out where the average temperature is.)

If you're a control freak, check out the tekmar tN4 stuff. It does pulse-width modulation, indoor feedbacks and all kinds of stuff.

But really you need to first look at the boiler and associated piping (assuming you've already maxed out on reducing the heat loss). Might be a big buffer tank would get you more efficiency without a lot of control stuff, for example.

Many great things are possible with hydronics....

 

So as not to clutter this discussion with BS regarding the Intellicon, I moved North Man Heat's recent rebuttal to my comments about the device to their own thread.

 

since my new system was built with the tekmar 260 can i just choose a place for the indoor sensor then wire it to the computer board myself or does my installer have to set something up? a quick google showed me it's only 40 bucks Tekmar - Indoor Sensor so thats nothing. I forget why i didnt want it done when he installed it or if he even asked. memory shot lol

 

Simple wiring. Follow the directions.

 

xiphias,
How low do you set the temperature back? and how long does it take to bring the temp up after a call for heat?
I have a coal/wood burning boiler connected the with oil boiler, in the fall and spring it works great. It is only 120000 BTU, when it is below 40-45 outside it can't keep up. It runs almost as a constat circulation system. It takes longer to heat the water and forces the circulators to run for a long, long time. I'll be posting pictures of the system, the area of each zone and the length of the radiators to give an idea of the setup.
I was monitoring the oil boiler cycles and it fire from 1.5 to 8 minutes and for the most part the it fires for an average of 4 minutes. This weekend I'll install the 6006 as second hi limit switch and set the differential to 30 like Trooper suggested . In the spring I might be combining some of the zones together and end up with 4 or 5 zones.

Beer 4U2

 

Used to set back 3-4F for about 8-10 hours. Then went to 2F, then just dropped setback altogether. Mostly out of comfort preference and odd working hours. IIRC, the recovery from any depth of setback was always within a couple minutes of about an hour, regardless of outdoor temp. The 260 does not have any kind of 'intelligent recovery', but the indoor sensor figured out where the system needed to be and recovery was remarkably consistent. Only took a couple days playing with the fixed start time for recovery to figure out when it had to start to be at the setpoint by the desired time.

 

How would one wire this into an oil fired system. (Honeywell GVD)
If it works on 24volts I assume it needs to be linked to burner controller.
What closes it when HW+ is econonmizing , TT is calling for heat but burner is not firing?

With the OVD , I assume it is tied into burner line voltage,. correct?
Also if I tighten up the leaks (install door seals etc) doesn't my burner act as a damper?
Ie. no air in , no heat flow out.

 

fred, the wiring would of course follow the installation instructions. You would NOT want to use a GVD on an oil system...

When a thermostat calls for heat, the signal first goes to the damper accessory... and will not pass down to the burners until the controls on the damper PROVE that it is open.

When a combination of add-on controls are used, it is imperative to understand how they work together so that bad things don't happen... (obviously!)

Let's say "Less" air in, "Less heat flow out", because no matter how tight the boiler is, there will always be air flow through the burner. There is no 'flap' in the burner that closes when the burner is off... air will still draft through the burner. (Beckett DID try adding a 'flap' device back in the last century, but I doubt if there are many of them still in use... they were troublesome)

 

NJ Trooper,
Thanks for confirming what i thought about GVD.
It was referenced as a substitute for OVD in this thread so that is why I questioned it.

Assuming that that I understand how the HW+ functions (debatable if anyone really knows)and also how the OVD functions and how to wire both.
How does one keep the OVD closed when HW+ is econonmizing or when burner is at highlim and TT is calling for heat but burner is not firing?

Both the HW+ and the HILIm seem to open line current to burner after signal to open is sent to OVD.

Or is that not possible or a good idea?
Thanks

 

Nj Trooper

Light bulb just turned on. Forget last question.
Mixed up the GVD with OVD .

OVD does not get signal if no line voltage to burner if HW+ or Hilim temps are in differential range.
OVD is normally closed unless burner is about to fire or stack safety switch is tripped.

Makes sense now. Probably should have done a schematic first before I typed question..

 

I just installed the Field Controls ovd on my system which also has the Intellicon previously installed. The OVD has two pairs of wires the first of which is line voltage going directly to the damper actuator which will keep the damper closed when there is no burner call. There is another pair of wires that interrupt the burner circuit for when it is energized via a burner call it will open the vent. There is also stack temperature safety that overrides the burner call if the vent does not open and the stack temp goes above 600 degrees. The intellicon is wired in series downstream of the burner control thereby if the Intellicon does not release the burner to fire the damper will not open. I like the concept of the OVD, now let’s see how practical it is. The Mfg states that I should realize 5-10% savings off my fuel usage and I will be doing my usual painstaking calculations to ensure this is indeed the case. So in a nutshell I have a Biassi Riello cold start boiler with a indirect storage DHW, 6 zones , Hydrolevel aquastat, tigerloop deaerator, Field Controls OVD and the Intellicon HW. I am determined to burn less than 600 gallons annually and I am getting darn close to that number…..the replacement windows is the final piece…I think Beer 4U2

 

Nowadays, for about the same price as the intellicon, one can purchase the "Aquasmart" aquastat control... in addition to having a new and improved "HeatManager" built in, it also has the ability to allow extended circulator on function to purge heat from the boiler... looks interesting!

Patriot Supply - 7600A0001U

Now if only they had included the LWCO as Hydrolevel did...

 

NJ,
I had been considering the AquaSmart but I was unable to find it online untill you posted the link. Thanks

Just bought the HW+ with DHW sensor for a liitle under $200

Did not realize the aquasmart is actually less expensive than the HW+.

As explained to me on another post it is actually a dynamic reset based on inside sensor as apposed to dynamic differential. Similar to an outdoor reset.With the electronic aquastat and history tracking.
Have not yet found any real experience feedback online, only hype.
But the concept sounds good.
I am sure HW+ will save me some money because my Arcoliner has so much extra capacity.
Thought I was overadiated but my finished basement does not ever call for heat becuase the burner is essentially a huge cast iron radiator and keeps So with 164kbtu's my burner usually always hits high limit when the two other zones call for heat together.


I got the firebricks in and I am talking to Brock about the feasibility of making a couple of custom turbolators.
If it is cost effective and I install the OVD there is not much elso to do to my current setup.


North Heat Man,
You seem to have the same setup as Green Heat Pete on the Rigid Forum
Flickr: greenheatingsystems' Photostream
Are you the guy who sells HW+ online?

 

NJTrooper,
This is from the Aquasmart manual.
No savings guarantee because you can reprogram factory defaults.
Homeowner brochure aludes to $300+ savings a year.
Kinda contradictory.
Like your questions about the HW+. How does it determine
minimum temperature necessary to meet the heating demand.
I do not even believe that it even has an indoor sensor. Only the aquastat well sensor. So it acts like an ODR but based on what data?


"The Beckett AquaSmart comes equipped with the
Department of Energy (DOE) 2012 compliant Heat
Manager load-matching energy saving algorithm. The
Heat Manager saves fuel by dynamically changing the
temperature high operating limit to the minimum
temperature necessary to meet the heating demand.
The Contractor can adjust the HeatManager algorithm to
maximize comfort or energy savings.
The HeatManagerTM algorithm is designed to operate the
boiler at its lowest possible temperature while still
meeting the heating demand. By dynamically changing
the boiler temperature, it is designed to reduce the
energy used by the system without sacrifi cing comfort.
The default HIGH effi ciency setting should work best for
most systems. However, there are many system factors
that may have an effect on its ability to react to changes
quickly enough and supply adequate heat, such as
connected radiation, boiler size, system design
temperatures, etc. The effi ciency setting adjusts how
aggressively the HeatManagerTM algorithm attempts to
reduce the boiler operating temperature. If a loss of
comfort is experienced, decreasing the effi ciency setting
will help regain comfort at the expense of fuel savings
(see section A of “Programming Additional Options” for
instructions on changing the effi ciency setting)."

The min temp is 150deg vs 145deg for HW+

I wonder what these two would do together.
HW+ would report less savings due to less excess energy and would not be able to capitalize on the lower end.
Still, the combination has potential to pay for themselves.

 

The Beckett Aquasmart does not use the Heat Manager technology, it just re-used the name for this new device as it broke it's partnership with Intellidyne/Intellicon thereby not offering the money back guarantee. The technology the Aqua-smart uses is rather crude as it does not have an outdoor nor indoor sensor, all it does is offer three selections on what profile to use for boiler high limit temp. So it is rather subjective if it will save anything at all. I still stick by the Intellicon HW and if you want to get fancy add a hydrolevel 3150, works beautifully for me. The long and short you get what you pay for!Beer 4U2

 

I wonder why?

And what, the Intellidyne DOES?

I haven't finished studying all the literature on the Aquasmart yet... thanks for posting those pieces... I too questioned why there wouldn't be a sensor to measure _something_ other than the temp of the water in the boiler. I'm still not 100% down with the idea that the rate of change of the boiler water after the burner shuts down is adequate feedback. Now... if they were to monitor the thermostat calls for heat, that _could_ be used nicely to determine the required water temperature... and I hope John has patents (he does: USPatent: 6,402,043 10/18/01) ... see:

http://www.exqheat.com/boilerresetcontrol.html

The more often the thermostat calls for heat, the higher the water temperature... and vice versa... simple, eh?

 

North Man,
I agree with you on them being different animals.
And the HW+ does not require profiling. It would be a better unit if one could adjust the sensitivity of the sensor to allow a little more economizing for systems that dump heat fast.
My other house has an AS Severn with massive cast iron radiators that can go from 190 to 120 in about a minute on call after overnight setback.
Did they change the HW+ specs because version revK specifically says the HLOLIM is variable(programable) from 160deg to 90deg. Earlier literature says it released at 145fixed.

Maybe Intelledyne should publish release notes like software
companies do. It maybe possible that earlier versions are not a adjustable(functional) as newer or maybe they hired better tech writers.


What about my other question?

"North Heat Man,
You seem to have the same setup as Green Heat Pete on the Rigid Forum
Flickr: greenheatingsystems' Photostream
Are you the guy who sells HW+ online?"

I just got mine today but for some reason they shipped my DHW sensor separately and it has not arrived. Not sure if will really matter that much in my case now anyway(except in off season). I can run all 3 zones and never lose hot water with just a coil and 30 gal aquaboost. I will have to experiment

 

So it acts like an ODR but based on what data?
NJ Trooper
I am also leaning toward monitoring the TT activity.
With three programable TT's there is an almost guarantee that there is overlap and it is not clear that once the HW+ thinks it has a high demand and sets its HLOLim if it is smart enough to re adjust if one of the zones kicks out before it hits that point. Once it releases it is out of the equation until the demand is satisfied or hilim is hit. Or until Hilim(not sure if that question was ever resolved)


But for the money, why not twiddle. Keeps the mind off the economy and the cost of oil.

engineers motto: If it ain't broke, fix it.

 

Very interesting read from 1974 Popular Mechanics


A programable control made with two mechanical TT's and a mechanicaltimer.

Homemade stack flue convector fins made from aluminum edging.

And a stack flue heat extractor that is probably in violation of current building codes.

Popular Mechanics - Google Books

 

While looking back at the old magazines is great fun, I want to caution AGAINST using those fins on your flue pipe! Back in the day, when flue gases might have been 450-500 degrees, I would say yeah, why not... but in this century, with the higher efficiency boiler designs, the flue gases often struggle to get up to 350... which is about the minimum I would send up the chimney... you can't afford to cool that gas any more than it already is... any lower and it will start raining in your chimney... acid rain at that... so don't try this at home!

 

Hi, I'm a new member and don't know whether I should have started a new thread for this or not. The answer is probably already on the site and I can't find it. Anyway, I'm wondering whether there is a rule of thumb for how much to set back an old hot water/cast iron system during the day, how it relates to the number of hours the temp is down, the need to avoid condensation damage, etc. The house is empty during most weekdays till 4 and when we turn in we want to sleep in a pretty cool second floor. So do we lose everything we gain when we set the thermostat too low during the day? We have an 1900 vintage two story in northern Michigan (nice and cold). Pretty well insulated. A Weil Mclain CG4 boiler with one zone for the house and one for our Boiler Mate (so the furnace goes all year). We have a Beckett Heat Manager too.

Thanks

 

NJ Tropper,

Re:Interesting read
I should of clarified when I said interesting. I was not advocating, I was commenting on the fact that DIY's will always be looking for that extra advantage. At little or no cost. Aside from the flue condensation,it took me awhile using the firebricks to get my stack temp where I want it and besides my utility room is already a comfortable 68deg without radiators. I also checked with my oilman and the other device or similar are not legal anymore. Then one would have to account for the energy cost (electricity) to move that excess heat.

got my HW+ and after watching a couple of cycles it occured to me that with my cast iron beast, why not economize all the time. If I replace my fixed diff hilim with a White-Rodgers 11D31-1 Well Immersion, SPDT, 100°F To 240°F Range, 7°F To 45°F, set the diff as wide as the HW+ will go on factory HLOLim, the HW+ would never econimize and I would get my money back and save $50. (Diff between the two) And save oil. I am starting to think that a wider fixed dif is a better solution to short cycling also.
Will have to wait the 72 hours and start experimenting.

 

Hi Fred, I knew you weren't advocating, I wanted to put that in there for other readers now and future that might be inclined to try something like that.

I've wondered the same thing myself, and did in fact experiment with your idea of an additional aquastat with adjustable diff wired in series with the high limit in the existing aquastat.

It seemed like a viable idea, and probably IS. But not on my system. I rarely see my system anywhere near the high limit... most of the firings are satisfied by the time the supply gets to 140... so it didn't really work for me.

On a system that routinely does require getting up to 160-180 high limit, I would say yes, a wider diff all the time might work. One caveat though... when it gets REALLY cold, one might find that holding the burner off that long becomes uncomfortable... a lot depends on the individual home... rate of heat loss, etc...

What made the mostest difference on MY system was the addition of the 'circulator on after burn' feature... this coupled with a good thermostat that can dynamically adjust the anticipator really does save...

A brief re-cap of what I did for those who don't wanna read back and search (I don't blame ya!)...

A strap on aquastat on the supply pipe to the home, right now I have it set to CLOSE on temp rise, with the setpoint at 130, and a negative diff of 25. This aquastat is wired ACROSS the circulator relay in my boiler aquastat, such that when the thermostat stops calling, the circulator will continue to run until the water cools to 105.

I get very little overshoot because the thermostat has 'learned' when to shut off the burner... the circulator continues to run for another 15 minutes or so, purging the heat from the boiler into the home.

The net result of this is that the boiler doesn't get as hot (yes, I'm mildly concerned about condensation, but haven't seen a problem yet)... the times BETWEEN firings are extended... there is ZERO short cycling, because when the boiler DOES refire, it burns for at least 10 minutes because it is bringing the water up from a cooler temp to start with.

I'm estimating about 2-3% savings with this setup, and the home is very comfortable.

 

esalman, you said that it is a "cold start boiler". This does not make sense to me at all at 1100 pounds!

I would do your that energy audit and find out how much heat you really need.

Before I ever put in a 240 MBH boiler I would put in two 120 MBH. Because you size for the coldest time of the year you would probably only need the 2d one 30% of the time.

btw I always put in lots of zone valves, six being very common, and have never had problems with the "short cycling" that some always mention.

 

I am not finding that thread. I wanted to say as I mentioned in another thread on the Beckett Manager that as I watch it work on a Burnham MPO, often when there is a call for heat the circ starts and heats the zone with latent heat without firing the burner even when the boiler temp is 140 to 150.
Also when the burner is running, it often stops before reaching high limit setting and continues to circulate the zone until the thermostat is satisfied.
It does work as explained in the promo video but I have no way of knowing because it is boiler replacement, not just an add on.

 

You can find that thread here:

http://forum.doityourself.com/boiler...on-debate.html

 

Bilbo,
Not sure if you are talking about Beckett Heat Manager or Aquasmart with HeatManager.
If the first, then it is not the Heat Manager shutting off burner during call for heat.
It is only a dynamic (variable) differntial. Are you sure call for heat is not being satisfied by TT right at or near differential then temp drops a degree or two and TT recalls and then Manager starts "economizing"
If it is the second, it maybe due to some sort of ODR like reset adjusting the HiLim setting.
I don't know enough about it. Why don't you send a link to the video?
Thanks

 

NJ Trooper,
I would like to try this idea to see if I can get away with programming my evening and morning setbacks earlier.
Not sure what you mean by ACROSS the Circ relay.
It sounds like you are using a circ controller to turn on circs when temp gets below 130. What happens if call for heat ends at 135deg?
I have three separate Lux 9000TS thermostats going to individual 24v relays controlling three Taco circs and firing burner. I would only want to unload to one (main) zone
Himlim is an old adjustable with unknown fixed diff. (If the sensor on the HW+ is correct, than it is close to 30-35 deg) I think it is actually tired and am going to replace with
wide range adjustable.

Probably would not want to get water quite so low but would not mind getting down 40 deg from my hilim. Sometimes coasts up to 187 from 175 stting after a long burn

I am also curious about your convectors (cast iron,fin-tube or radiant or combo)that allows you to run low and still make heat.

 

Fred, first, I should mention that I don't have any zone valves, one zone, two loops, upstairs and downstairs. Zone valves would complicate this setup, because there would need to be a way to hold the zone valves open also...

OK, a little more explanation:

The aquastat I'm using is very similar to the Honeywell 6006. I'm using the pair that CLOSES on temperature rise to setpoint. Meaning the contacts close at setpoint, and with the -25 differential, they open again when the temp falls to 105.

There's an 8148 aquastat on my boiler. The relay in the 8148 is a double pole. One pole fires the burner, the other fires the circulator. The wires from the 'extra' aquastat are wired across, in shunt, bypassing the circulator pole on the 8148 aquastat.

So, there's a call for heat and the system starts up as normal, the relay in the 8148 pulls in, burner starts, circ runs.

When the SUPPLY water temp reaches 130, the 'extra' aquastat pulls in and bypasses the one in the 8148. When the heat call ends, the 8148 relay opens, but because the 'extra' aquastat is wired in parallel with the circ relay in the 8148, the circ continues to run until the boiler cools to 105.

I know this works with the thermostat I'm using, which is a Honeywell... and the first day or so I had it hooked up, the temperature in the home DID overshoot by 1-2... sometimes 3 degrees. Since then, the thermostat seems to have learned when to cut off the burner to anticipate the overshoot, and the temp stays pretty much constant. I can't say whether it will work with other thermostats or not.

The home is equipped with mostly fin-tube baseboard, and there are convector cabinets in the downstairs bath, and the kitchen. Fin-tube (and the convectors) will give useable heat down to at least 100°, and maybe lower... the 'ratings' are given at 180 of course, but they do emit heat at much lower temps, just not as many BTUs/ft.

 

Unfortunatly, the only way to get one of these is to convince an HVAC contractrator to purchase, markup, charge me to figure out how to install and install for around $800. Then interface with seller if it does not work properly. (one who's dime?)

I can understand the liability issue, by why entice a DIYer who is trying to avoid that very same thing. Great idea, bad deal.

 

Yeah, I'm not quite sure I understand the marketing behind that one... but I think $800 might be just a wee bit over-stated.

 

I think so too. But since my Hi-Lim breaks line voltage, I will also need a relay.

If I lay the whole thing out and just have my oilman review the setup and twist the wire nuts, I might get the cost down.

He has been very fair in the past, even coming out on Thanksgiving day to replace a burner relay at my old house.

He is also old enough to remember when my boiler was new.
He tells me about also kinds of things they used to do, like acid flushing tankless coils and modifying nozzles, that is no longer allowed.

Since I am the type who never would of bought the HW+ when it was selling for $300 but ok at half that, I think I will wait until this one is available on the open market.

 

Bilbo,
When I bought the boiler I depended on my brother in-law (HVAC tech). The short cycling in my case is due to 2 smaller zones, the boiler will run for a minute and half which was bugging me.

I installed the L6006 in series with burner controller and set the differential to 30 like NJ Trooper recommended. My oil use is still the same but it did eliminate the short cycling. My plan for the summer is to install and OVD and rezone the system ending with 5 zones only. The only thing I'm still debating is the boiler control. I Like the simplicity and price of the Inetillicon but I also like the control provided by the tekmar. Also I'm researching the AquaSmart.

Emil
Beer 4U2