Is my Prestige Solo 110 installed properly?

We have a new Prestige Solo 110 (Triangle tube) installed. We have 4 zones (basement, first floor and two on second fl). The basement zone is not yet connected.

It is ~20 degrees outside and we set it to 72 degrees on the first floor and the system can barely get it to 72. It sits at 71 for an hour or two and then finally hits 72. It also takes an hour or so to move up a degree. To test the system out, we move the thermatstat to 74 and it cannot reach it unless we open the windows to heat the room up.

The plumber used the slant fin program to size the baseboards and we are almost exactly set as per the program.

The system is using the built in circulator and we are utilizing the Smart 40 indirect hot water. The hot water works great.

I have uploaded pictures for some comments please. If you have any suggestions here, please let me know. The only thing I can think of is the built in circulator is insufficient for the linear feet of installed pipe. Piping is copper and baseboard is Base/Line 2000. The outdoor sensor is not yet installed.

If i hold my hand over the baseboard (3ft above), should I feel the convection heat? I need to put my hand 6 inches above to feel it.

Manual is located at: http://www.triangletube.com/document...0%20Manual.pdf

Thanks!

 

Goto "INFO" on the solo controller.
What is the temperature displayed beside the number 1 and the number 2.

These correspond to the supply and return temperatures.
If you have a delta T (higher temp - lower temp) 20 or less then the circ should be big enough for the head loss in the rads and associated pipework.

If the delta T is more, than you need more circulator.
Since this boiler ships with a Grundfos 15-58 3 speed circ, you may be able to turn it up to speed 2 or 3.

If the delta T is really big (upwards of 40) the boiler will modulate back in order to protect itself and the heat emitters.

If your delta T is less than 20 and you are already at 180 degree F water temp, get more rads installed fast, before the cold weather really hits.

 

Supply Temp = ~185
Return Temp = ~148.

delta = ~37

I assume this means I need more circulator. Do I need one on each zone?

I assume i should have the plumber do the option of Figure 9 on page 21 of the manual (link below). Is Figure 10 acceptable? How would I know?

Thanks!

 

Check the speed on the pump, involves popping the cover off and a flashlight usually.

Your delta T is way high, if the system is set up with zone valves now and you don't wanna re-pipe the boiler you can pull the pump from the boiler and install a Grundofs 26-99 3 speed, or a Taco 009 single speed may work as well, but I would need way more info to say for sure.

Also what is the model number of the zone valves, as they may be too restrictive at the flow rate you need to flow.

 

What's the design heat loss and design outdoor temperature?
How many square ft of house?
How many feet of baseboard on each zone?
Are the zones piped as series loops?

 

* What's the design heat loss and design outdoor temperature?

@@ it was 85k or so

* How many square ft of house?

@@ 2000 sq (first and second fl). 1000 sq ft in basement.

* How many feet of baseboard on each zone?

@@ I would guess about 100 ft of pipe or so per loop. Maybe a little more. It is an old house and it went where the closets existed. Of actual baseboard, there are 55ft on first fl. and in loop 1 on the second fl, there is 23ft. in loop 2 upstairs, there is 24ft. basement isnt completed yet

* Are the zones piped as series loops?

@@ I posted the pictures below of the manifold. please see if that answers this question.

 

After you subtract the friction loss thru the boiler heat exchanger, you have about 5 1/2" feet of head left for your system at 8.5 gpm.
I suspect you are running more than that.

 

What does that mean? Non plumber terms please

what is "head"

 

every bit of pipe (or heat exchanger) within the system will try to slow down the flow of water. This is called the friction loss.
3/4" pipe has a friction loss of about 5 feet of head per 100 linear feet @ 5 gallons per minute. Add to this valves and 90's and anything else that is inline with the path of the water flow.

Basically, once you add all these numbers up and get, for example 8 feet of head in your pipework, valves and 90's + the 6.5 feet of head that the boiler heat exchanger causes then you look at a pump curve and you will see that at this point of friction loss on the curve you may only now flow 3.5 GPM.

Once you reduce the flow rate, your heat emitters start to pull more and more temperature off the water flow, you will get uneven heating as rooms that where designed for 170 degree water may now only get 160 degree water... etc. etc.

A circulator will only move the amount of water that it has the power to move at that friction loss. If it cannot overcome the friction loss at all then you have no flow. The circ will increase flow thru the circuit until it reaches a point where the friction loss is in equilibrium with the flow, it will always do this. This is why we add globe valves after a circulator so we can trim the flow by adding friction loss.

Hope that splains it all

 

Technical terms, but all defined and used in examples:

http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/Fil...irculators.pdf

85,000 BTU/hr loss for 2000 sq ft is a very lossy house, anywhere in NJ. While you figure out the boiler, you'd be well-served by insulating and air sealing. Best payback there is, especially for older houses. Get a blower door test and thermal imagery to identify insulation and infiltration. Good tax credits and utility rebates for this stuff, too.

And while we're on the topic, 102 feet of baseboard (55+23+24) has a nominal maximum output of 56,000 BTU/hr. Hope your heat loss is really less than 85k, or you may not have enough radiation output.

 

Is the installer planning to run some PVC for supply air when he comes back to hook up the Outdoor Reset sensor?

 

Plumber said the make-up air would be from indoors. If he ran the makeup air pipe from outdoors, how far away from the exhaust pipe must it be? We can only run the supply/vent pipes in one (same) direction through 1 or 2 joist bays so they would be within 3 ft of each other.

Also, contractor told me that we should decrease the speed of the built in pump from High to Medium and that would reduce the delta. In actuality, it did nothing.

Supply temp is about ~186
Return temp is about ~150.

 

If you're using indoor air to feed the burner, that air has got to be replaced by something. It will be replaced by outside air that is sucked into your house wherever it can get in. Now you're using heated air to feed the burner and replacing it with cold air that you're paying to reheat. Running PVC for the supply really isn't that big of a deal. The supply and exhaust PVC don't need ANY clearance from each other between the joists. Mine are run right up against each other and then exit the house through a single hole with a concentric vent kit.

 

Find a new plumber please.

You need only be 1' apart between the supply and return.
Read the vet supplement that came with the boiler, that will give you all the guidelines to follow.

Not sure why he would think that slowing the flow would decrease the delta T, but its the opposite of course.

By using indoor air you increase you heatloss because the air you burn needs to come from outside at some point then it's heated up by your heating system and burned, not as efficient is it.

 

Spoke with Triangle Tube tech support. They validated that there is not enough circulation. We also get E18 error which is due to same problem.

My question: Please review pictures below, is this installed in series or primary/secondary. To me, it seems in series. What does primary secondary mean? What would need to be done to make it primary secondary?

Also, there is no pressure differential switch installed.

Thanks!

 

Not sure how much help it is, but mine is installed in a primary/secondary configuration. You can see pics in the 5th post of this thread:

http://forum.doityourself.com/boiler...tige-solo.html

 

I may not be seeing this properly but is it not easier to install a diff bypass valve at th end of this loop instead of changing to p/s? Of course he needs the right size pump.
To do p/s he would need another circulator and some repiping on the zone supply and returns.

 

Not related… but that Extrol expansion tank is not supposed to be mounted horizontally.

 

RadiantRob is correct please see the warnings on page one of the following link.
http://www.amtrol.com/pdf/9015-183.pdf
That really puts you in a pickle as you cannot install with an inverted trap either. It will trap air. Installing upside down although still vertical will trap air on the diaphram and could cause pre-mature failure.

 

I don't think the 'drip leg' on the gas line is correct either...

 

Normally, the gas drip leg is installed on a tee, immediately ahead of the the fuel valve - where the gas flow makes a 90-deg turn, from horizontal to vertical (upward) flow, through the tee. The one in the pix shows the drip leg where the gas flow shoots straight across the inlet to the drip leg (no turn).

Are there codes that apply to gas drip legs? If not, the appliance manufacturer probably specifies the arrangement.

I've never removed a drip-leg nipple to see what's trapped inside. That would be an interesting experiment for a high-school science project. Go door-to-door with an experienced (volunteer) plumber, and collect data. The "come on," could be: I'll clean or replace your drip-leg nipple.

 

"Oh my! Come right on in sonny!"

Click on the picture of the hand holding the nipple in the following link:

Reuben's Home Inspection Blog

 

OK, I looked at that pix. It looks like there is gunk, of some sort, almost up to where the nipple was threaded into the cap (even though the caption says "nothing" was in there). Without a drip leg, would all that gunk have wound up in the fuel valve? No information given on the length of time the drip leg pictured was in service.

I'm ready to unleash a swarm of high-schoolers and their science projects. Maybe even Eagle-Scout candidates looking for a community service project.

 

I had a Solo110 installed a couple of months ago. I immediately gave it a test, I turned my thermostat up to 75 and it would not come up to 75 for 5 hours. I talked to the installer who put me in touch with the area rep for Triangle Tube. He said the outside censor is causing the problem. Here is how it works- Lets say the outside temperature is 55 and the inside temperature is 65 and you want the house at 70, because the outside temperature is so close to the inside temperature the boiler will be told by the program to modulate, which means the boiler will only produce maybe 40,000 BTUS, when the boiler is producing less BTU's it also produces lower water temp, so yes would would have to put your hand close to the base board to feel that lower water temp. This is where the savings comes in, if you keep your house constant at 68, not up and down several degrees the boiler works well. I did find out from the rep that the on board computer has a setting for superboast, when the temperature of the house has not risen within certain time the boiler goes to high fire at 110,000 BTUs. Keep in mind, you will give up some efficiency for the comfort. Also the 4" PVC pipe (in your picture) for returning outside air to boiler (closed loop) is not connected.