Hi,

Looking to see if I can get some help here before calling in service (considering my gas bill has doubled!).

Some of the details below may be a bit off but I'll try to describe it to the best of my ability using somewhat proper terminology (hopefully).

I have a old Gibraltar Gas Boiler. It has a bladder type tank attached to it. As of now, the pressure on it is reading 19/20. There's also a red 'altitute' reading that is at 30.
Both times that I bled the system -- I didn't see the pressure on it. Nor did I touch anything with the reduce and relief valves. I only saw the reduce and relief valbes after the second bleeding -- But those two are working fine as I tested both valves (reduce upped the pressure and relief lowered it).

Second Floor gets HOT WATER but no heat! First floor is fine for both.

Thanks for any advice/help that anyone has.

Long winded story below which may not be needed.
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The pipes started banging a lot for heat/hot water -- so I bled the system yesterday.

Apparently, there was no heat overnight to only the 2nd floor until my mom mentioned it when I got home after work tonight. It gets hot water fine.

So, I bled it again tonight and waited longer for everything to drain out. Still the same case -- no heat to the 2nd floor baseboard heating. But, heat to the first floor is fine (it was actually warmer than usual on the first floor baseboards).

Does it sound like there's still a air pocket or something somewhere?

 

I should also mention there's only one zone (pipe?) leading up from the basement for heat. No valves on it.

 

Yes

You only have one thermostat for heat in the house correct?

 

Did this problem just start out of the blue? It's unusual for air just to show up unless there is something else wrong or unless the system was opened/drained for maintenace. You should have an air-eliminator device - pictures could help. Post on a "free image hosting" site, and link here.

What procedure did you use for bleeding the system?

 

yes -- it's only one thermostat in the house. it's on the second floor.

 

It started after I had to bleed the system because the pipes were banging every time the boiler went off.

This is how I bled the system: turn off boiler, turn off cold water source, open hot water drain valve, turn on hot water faucet upstairs on second floor. After it drained out, I closed both hot water sides and turned the water back on.

Not really sure about the air eliminator device you're speaking of.

Thanks.


------- pictures below ----------

 

Something to add ... I found out that the radiator in the bathroom has a valve on it. Should I bleed the system again and if so how (knowing this valve is available now)?

 

Take a few wider angle pix, and point out the valves that I've bolded above.

Does your system have a domestic hot water heater connected to the boiler? Please show us that.

If I followed your bleeding procedure, you opened the boiler drain and shut off the city water supply feeding the two copper-colored, domed-shaped components. Is that right? If so, that is not the correct procedure, and in all likelihood, you added air the the system. Don't do anything more until be can understand this better.

Air in the system usually does not cause pipe "banging." Did you have heat to the second floor before you attempted your "bleeding" procedure? If so, I think your bleeding caused the problem.

You must have a air removal device somewhere. Give us a sharp, closeup pix of the piping and components on top of the expansion tank (looks like R2D2).

 

Without seeing all of your piping and valves its hard to tell you over the net how to properly purge a system. What I can tell you is your not even close, your trying to bleed a hydronic heating loop by draining your boiler and domestic water lines.

You should really have a service tech come out and have it done right, I'am sure he would show you how for the next time if you ask him, sorry I have no better advise for you.

 

Yes, we do have a water tank hooked up to it as well. But, we stopped using it (it's in the left on the first picture).

"Both water sources" meant I closed the faucet upstairs and the drain valve on the boiler.

When I did the drain, I had turned off the main water source and not the cold water valve on the boiler.


SYSTEM PIPINGS








COLD WATER VALVE




DRAIN VALVE (in the back)




BLADDER on the side

 

Your drinking water, both hot and clold, that go to lavatories, etc., is separate from anything to do with bleeding air from your heating system. So, opening a hot drinking water faucet unstairs (or anywhere) accomplished nothing. Try to think through that.

Opening the boiler drain wouldn't possibly vent air that might be blocking the upstairs heat. If you drained it long enough for it to gurgle, it would admit more air into the system. And opening the boiler drain with the main house water supply shut, doesn't allow water to replace what you drained (until you opened up the main supply again).

Consider yourself severly chastised , but there is no real harm done. But from here on, take it slow, one step at a time. And, if you aren't sure what you're doing, stop and get back to us here.

OK, you showed a pix of the top of the expansion tank, and the air eliminator is on top. Your pix cut off the tip-top of the air eliminator, the part I wanted to look at. If there is like a tire valve cap screwed onto the top of the air eliminator, unscrew it and leave it off (so air can come out). (By the way, the air eliminator, the part I can see, looks like it's seen better days - replace it next spring.)

Now, go upstairs and see if there are bleeder valves on either end of each of the radiators. You said there was a valve on one of the radiators - but is it just a shut-off valve or a bleeder? Don't guess - take photos and get back to us for further directions.

 

the second picture is of the air eliminator on top of the expansion tank. when i took the little tire cap off -- there seemed to be something lodged inside it. so i poked it a bit and water came spurting out (there's still a small steady stream).

the other is the bleeder (?)(black cap) on the radiator upstairs in the bathroom. the rest of the house is baseboard and i don't see any when peering into them.

 

OK, let's forget the air eliminator for the time being - replace the cap. I'm unfamiliar with that style, so maybe somebody else here can help.

The valve you show is a thermostatic radiator valve. Not a bleeder. Keep looking. For baseboards, you'd probably have to remove the end caps to see if there are bleeders.

 

Let's not overlook the fact that there might actually be some frozen pipes leading to the second floor!

I dunno Mike... looks like a bleeder to me!

If the automatic air vent is leaking water, it needs to be replaced... I think that one can come apart for cleaning/service, but it looks old enough and like it's been leaking long enough to be past cleaning, and time for replacing.

The picture of your temp / pressure gauge should be telling us something... 15 PSI at 180 degrees tells me that you don't have enough pressure in your system to raise the water to the second floor. This is IF and ONLY IF that pressure gauge is accurate! (I know, I sound like a scratched CD... but it's true, gauges 5uck!)

 

njtrooper, weird thing is that the heat to the 2nd floor was working before i bled the system on tuesday night.

i'm going to double check the baseboards on the 2nd floor.

thanks.

 

i'm going to check all the baseboards, thanks.

the cap on the air eliminator is still leaking water after putting it back on and screwing it (even if I screw it tight).

i'm going to also look to see if i can schedule someone to be here in the morning to look at it before i go to work. hopefully i can provide enough information to them before them come over.

 

Maybe not all that weird. The way you tried to bleed the system couldn't have done any good, and very possible could have made things worse by adding air.

Did the upstairs conk out immediately after your attemped bleeding? Did you even notice? The thing is, if the upstairs weren't air locked immediately, I would have expected that heat would continued and thus prevent freezing. But now, who knows?

 

i think my dad bled the system the same way a few years ago (we were doing it together the other night).

i'm not sure if it stopped immediately as my mom only noticed it not having heat the next day and told me about it then.

it hasn't been very cold here on the east coast (30s?).
so, i would be surprised if the time we took to bleed out the system (30 minutes) caused a pipe to freeze or something ...

anyway, i'll let you guys know how it goes when i call in for service.

thanks for all the help.

 

Oh, maybe I'm wrong, again! That changes everything.

If so, kmcid, try to open the valve and see if air/water comes out. (Don't change any other valves' positions.) Try to catch any water in a cup. Bleed until no air, just a stream of water comes out.

If this solves the problem - Trooper and I both accept boxes of cookies and candy. (joke)

 

I did that prior when I found it. Bled it and very little air came out.

I'll bake the cookies myself (never baked them before). lol.

 

Try it again, while the pump is running.
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hey guys, here's an update after the plumber came today.

replaced: expansion tank, air vent/eliminator, dual water feeder (?) -- he said this was leaking.

after seeing that none of my baseboards had a bleeder and the radiator in the bathroom had the only bleeder -- he installed a bleeder to the boiler's return heat pipe (hope I said this right).

we bled the system through the new bleeder and got some heat into the 2 bedrooms on the second floor -- this was when the radiator started spitting out lukewarm water. after repeated bleeding attempts -- the living room and bathroom radiator was still without heat.

so, he left and told me to try bleeding the system again via the radiator upstairs in an hour or two. i've been bleeding it for the last hour+ since I got home. weird thing was, when I got home, heat that was going to the 2 bedrooms was cold -- as was the water coming out of the bathroom radiator. so, 2 hours into bleeding the radiator -- the water has turned past lukewarm. i'm hopeful that continued bleeding via it will get it to hot water and then the heat starts to flow into the living room.

the plumber did say he would come back and put bleeders into my baseboards in the living room if the continued bleeding did nothing. free of charge he said ... considering i got charged an arm, leg and a foot. >_

 

This just happened to my neighbors house. While installing a new floor in the kitchen he pulled up a piece of subfloor during demo and broke a joint on the base board. it leaked. We bled the system, and replaced the joint and all was well.

Only the second floor stopped getting heat. The house was zoned for upstairs and down stairs so I didn't understand why the second zone lost heat as compared to the first zone (which was originally damaged.)

My brother in law is a plumber (some 20 years) and he came in and flushed both zones. Zone 2 was warm but not hot. He then re-flushed and thought there might be a blockage in the auto fill (don't know how that related to the issue, but he was getting salty and I stopped asking questions).

He then tried a reverse flush (Which I never heard of) but this worked perfectly. And still works.

He said if that didn't work he was out of options and would have to call in someone else. But it did. Maybe if you still have issues, you can try this. ? ? ?

 

Thanks for the info. The plumber came back today and installed bleeder into the baseboards in the living room and kitchen where there was still no heat. That did te trick. Bled te area and everything started flowing normally.

He surmise that the house may have had radiator heat like the bathroom prior ... But doesn't understand how they installed the baseboard without bleeder anywhere else.