hydronic in concrete design


  #1  
Old 01-10-10, 10:47 AM
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hydronic in concrete design

Ok - here is what I have -cannot find "exact" design anywhere that relates directly to what "I think I need.

55'x60' shop. 1/2 non barrier pex in 6" concrete floor.
Crown boiler, CSC-200 (given to me)
RHT FN5 manifolds(1/2") zone side
1/2" on 9" venters with 2.5" xps insulation under and around down to frost line on sides.
This is a shop in Colorado - not living in it but got to be able to work in it.. Efficiently!!
I know I need a HE(plate style) for two reasons - non barrier and low zone temp for floor of @ 120degrees. Was really looking at a buffer tank/DHW indirect to have the future capability of HW but too expensive right now..
as the image linked shows, I have "remote" manifolds to keep loop lengths equal and am really struggling on how to plumb them.. http://turbosrv.com/images/hydronic.jpg
I have been browsing/searching/reading books but have yet to collect everything in a picture so I can get this done.. Any help???
 
  #2  
Old 01-11-10, 01:10 AM
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Ahoy Captain- Take a look at the BPHE's on this site: TriangleTube

Download Pdf, I have my eye on a couple that might serve
your purposes for both heat and domestic hot water.
Enjoyed your schematic, wishing I had Autocad! Will try to
draw up something for you soon.
 
  #3  
Old 01-11-10, 04:52 AM
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You don't need a heat exchanger if you run propylene glycol in the system.
Do a boiler bypass if it's cast, or better yet primary secondary piping with provisions for DHW.
Tekmar 356 VS mix control to schedule the system water temp and provide boiler protection.

Plumb all manifolds in parrallel, and use seperate supply and return lines back to boiler.

Will be a good system.
 
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Old 01-12-10, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by TOHeating
You don't need a heat exchanger if you run propylene glycol in the system.
Do a boiler bypass if it's cast, or better yet primary secondary piping with provisions for DHW.
Tekmar 356 VS mix control to schedule the system water temp and provide boiler protection.

Plumb all manifolds in parrallel, and use seperate supply and return lines back to boiler.

Will be a good system.
I don't agree with not needing a heat exchanger on a non-
barrier PEX installation. Oxygen will still penetrate the system
causing major malfunctions. Take a look at the schematic I
drew up for you. The 1st. HX is used as a bypass by throttling
an isolation valve. I drew it up quik, so I don't need to be nit-
picked. It's been a long day in the field at 50 below.

http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/y...FHinjected.jpg

If you like what you see, we will discuss control/wiring.
 
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Old 01-13-10, 06:57 AM
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ok... thoughts

questions on your design.. I dont want to have any Oxygen issues... Since I only have 1 big zone, I was trying to find a way to not have to do the second "primary" loop - located after the TIP4-30.. and sizing the circ pump there to handle/replace your zone pumps. Obviously the 'closely spaced tees' would be gone and 'supply' feed the upper part of the top diagram and return feed the lower..? basically my zone fed directly off the heat exchanger..
 
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Old 01-13-10, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by SuperSteve2000
I don't agree with not needing a heat exchanger on a non-
barrier PEX installation. Oxygen will still penetrate the system
causing major malfunctions. Take a look at the schematic I
drew up for you. The 1st. HX is used as a bypass by throttling
an isolation valve. I drew it up quik, so I don't need to be nit-
picked. It's been a long day in the field at 50 below.

http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/y...FHinjected.jpg

If you like what you see, we will discuss control/wiring.
Your intitled to :-)

Typically propylene glycol has rust inhibitors in it to protect the ferrous metal components.
 
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Old 01-13-10, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by captainhoek
questions on your design.. I dont want to have any Oxygen issues... Since I only have 1 big zone, I was trying to find a way to not have to do the second "primary" loop - located after the TIP4-30.. and sizing the circ pump there to handle/replace your zone pumps. Obviously the 'closely spaced tees' would be gone and 'supply' feed the upper part of the top diagram and return feed the lower..? basically my zone fed directly off the heat exchanger..
The heat exchanger can be sized to run 180 - 160 degrees on the primary side and 100-80 (or what ever temp you require the water to be at for design) on the secondary side.

Running injection and a loop around the heat exchanger offers good protect and a way to reset the water temp if required.
 
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Old 01-13-10, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by captainhoek
questions on your design.. I dont want to have any Oxygen issues... Since I only have 1 big zone, I was trying to find a way to not have to do the second "primary" loop - located after the TIP4-30.. and sizing the circ pump there to handle/replace your zone pumps. Obviously the 'closely spaced tees' would be gone and 'supply' feed the upper part of the top diagram and return feed the lower..? basically my zone fed directly off the heat exchanger..
You will encounter flow problems. BPHE's typically have too
high flow coefficient to feed your entire RFH system, there-
fore the P/S system. Get a radiant design manual and check
it out. You can choose to get by on the cheap, but you're
shooting yourself in the foot. Why not just go buy a large
water heater and plumb it in however you like?
 
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Old 01-14-10, 06:47 AM
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why not go with a large water heater?

I have a free Crown CSC-200 boiler
 
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Old 01-18-10, 06:50 AM
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large water heater...

is the ttp4-30 really around 1500$$? May as well go buy a water heater.. Is that efficient?? How do I calculate size?
 
  #11  
Old 01-20-10, 12:20 AM
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$1500 for that HX seems steep to me, even for Alaska.
You have a free boiler, but the way you want to plumb it
will cause condensing. Your boiler is not a condensing type,
that's why I suggested a water heater.
Maybe the other pros can step in here and provide some
detailed design specifics in regards to your HX size, and
some input on why a specific system must be plumbed in
a specific manner.
 
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Old 01-22-10, 10:00 AM
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heat exchangers on way

BPHE 40 plate and a 20 plate for DHW and strainers to keep things clean. Now for controls/wiring... supersteve200 "HX is used as a bypass by throttling an isolation valve." And a good place to order controls and autovents/spirovents/expansion tanks
.
Dang its staying cool here
 
  #13  
Old 01-22-10, 12:02 PM
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order parts

I've had good luck with Simply Plumbing and Patriot Supply. Good prices and quick service.
Steve
 
  #14  
Old 01-23-10, 11:36 PM
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Here's a non-isolated, buffered RFH heat and hot water system
I installed last month. Not exactly like what you've got, but
could be with the addition of another BPHE and circ. pump.
"Water runs uphill towards money"

 
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Old 01-24-10, 08:17 AM
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buffered radiant

wondering why two buffer tanks.. one is a DHW/buffer and the other boiler buffer?? I was thinking about the radiant buffer in the boiler loop so I dont short cycle but cannot find one with 1" or 1 1/4" ports.....
 
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Old 01-24-10, 08:37 AM
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Old 01-24-10, 10:50 PM
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Expansion tank is on wrong side of circ pump at boiler- needs
to be plumbed as close to the suction (inlet) side of the pump
as possible. Pump away from "point of least pressure change".
Don't forget isolation and purge valves in the proper locations.
Take another look at what I drew up for you. The only change
I would make to my design would be to plumb the boiler water
make up to a tee at the expansion tank. You would have to
check local code on this. Other than that, your new layout
looks like it might work.
 
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Old 01-25-10, 06:10 PM
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duuh

yeah , I knew that.. so controls.... where do I start..
 
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Old 01-25-10, 11:12 PM
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Bear with me, my friend. I'm kind of slammed in the field right
now, but will draw up a schematic ASAP.
 
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Old 01-26-10, 07:53 AM
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understand

Im self employed - I understand!! Thanks
 
  #21  
Old 01-30-10, 08:58 PM
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Ahoy Captain- Just to let you know I'm still here and thinking
of ya! Will try to sit down and draw up your schematic tomorrow.
In the meantime, hit the link below and check out the RIB2401D. You will be using three of these relays for heat, and one for
hot water control. I would plan on wiring in all four, the one
for hot water won't do anything till it gets signal from WH tstat. It's easier to wire it now than cut it in later.

http://www.functionaldevices.com/pdf/RIB2401D.pdf
 
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Old 02-13-10, 09:13 AM
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buffered tank

so if I wanted to add the buffer tank I want that in the boiler loop right?? and most tanks I find are 3/4 pipe size?
 
 

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