Our hot water baseboard system was installed about 3 years ago, just before we purchased the house. We were very excited about the system and we love the heat..except our Gas bill in the winter is $300+ for a 2,200 sf home. Our bills in the summer are significantly less. My parents have a home approx. the same size and forced hot air and they have a gas bill 1/2 ours. There is nothing that really differs out in our use of gas other than our heating systems.

I read about 'noise' from the copper pipes and air in the lines? We have alot of noise-clicking & banging.

I have a Smith GV100W Boiler & a Smart 40 Indirect fired water heater, Tiangle Tube Phase III, 36 gal.

The house is aboput 70 yrs old but was remodeled w/ new insulation, windows, etc..

What is the problem?

 

I have an indirect water hater and a boiler-both less than 3years old. I have hot water baseboard heat and my gas bill is very high. I thought that an indirect water heater with a boiler was supposed to be very efficient. What could be the problem?

 

heat loss due to improper / lack of insulation.
just got to find where the "window" is left open

 

An indirect is effecient. Is it your heat or hotwater that is causing your high bill. I have had an indirect in my house for 26 yrs. with 5 people and never ran out. Before blaming your indirect you might want to check all of the factors including your gas rates. Remember, all the indirect does is supply hot water. How is your gas bill in the summer?

 

I read this after I replied to the other one. It sounds like your heat is your concern, which is a whole different ballgame. You have to consider if the system was designed right and the heat loss figured correctly and installed properly. Warm air heat is the fatest heat you can have. All things being equal hot water will never beat warm air for heating up a space. There are a lot of people that don't like warm air because of the way they were in the old days, but installed correctly they do a great job. If you stop and think all your stores and most of you commercial buildings are warm air because you can also set it up for central air with little effort.

 

The efficiency of baseboards themselves is 100% - all the heat emitted by the baseboards goes into the house.

The efficiecy of a hot-water boiler will depend upon its design and combustion adjustments. You can hire someone to measure the combustion efficiency of your boiler.

Forced air heat is not inherently more efficient than hot water.

To compare your fuel usage to your parents' you'd need to perform a heat loss calculation for each house. What is the R-value of the exterior walls and windows? How was your 70-year-old house "reinsulated"? Where do you live? What do you pay per therm of gas? Is the boiler possibly oversized?

 

The boiler has to be the problem. walls, wndows, cost per therm are all pretty much equal. even if some of these are in their favor it couldn't result in a gas bill that's 1/2 with an older forced hot air system. I've also asked some other people and it seems as if we're much higher.

I was hoping for something obvious...

thanks

 

Mike,
I didn't mean a warm furnace in itself is more efficient than a hot water boiler. What I meant was it will heat a room a lot faster than baseboard heat which means it shuts the t-stat down faster which means you will use less fuel over time.

 

Yes, actually, I think it could. How do you know that the insulation is the same? How do you even know for sure that your 70-year-old house was "reinsulated" before you moved in? Or do you know how it was reinsulated?

 

The exterior walls of our house were insulted wth R-13 fiberglass batt insulation and R-4 rigid insulation on the out side of the sheathing. The other house has 2x6 walls with, i'm assuming R-19, inslation. So as far as that goes it's about a wash. Our home has Andersen 400 & 200 series double hung windows-the other house has certainteed vinyl windows-again pretty much a wash.

I've done work to the house since we've moved in so I know that in at least 2 areas of the house it was insulated the way i mentioned above.

I know that the amount of windows ad more importantly what direction they are facing has alot to do with the heat loss and heat gain as well as several other factors.

I've talked to several people that live in the same area that I do with generally the same size house constructed the same way except that my house has a boiler / hotwater baseboard heat that is relatively new and they have forced hot air.

I ddin't do a survey but i'm pretty sure it's the boiler and not the house that's cuasing a majority of the problems-i just don't know why...

 

First off the warm air debate. The warm air system will heat the house faster but it will cycle back on quicker is it heats the air faster but the objects are still cool. The hydronics will heat the objects along with the air. The other point is the more air currents you set up in the structure the greater the heat loss.
The reason many commercial buildings use warm air is they turn empty buildings down very low at night and require fast recovery. They also have doors open and closed frequently and need fast recovery. The biggest reason is it is less expensive than a duct system and of course a/c can be added easily as was stated. The only way to heat a building as quickly as warm air with hydronics is in-slab radiant but most commercial buildings don't want to spend the money.
The high fuel bills issue can be a combination of three things. The system, building envelope and the boiler.
Over sized boilers are less efficient along with natural draft boilers lose more heat. The amount of radiation per heat loss, chosen water temperature, system flow rate and controls.
How about more info on the system. Does the boiler stay hot all the time? Are you using zone valves or pumps? How many zones?
Air reduces the flow and the amount of heat you get out of the radiation. Need to remove the air.

 

Your reasoning makes sense, but it is incorrect - and in your example, the fuel consumed would be the same "over time" if the boiler and the furnace had the same efficiencies. As rbeck explained, the difference is the recovery time - the forced air furnace will initially recover and click off faster, but it will click back on sooner, too - because the air is heated before the insides of the house. The thermostat responds, initially, to air temp.

A Btu added to your house, whether via a forced-air furnace or any other type, is a Btu.

 

And figure out how air got into the system and why the air removal device(s) don't seem to be doing their job.

Have you been hearing the noises you attribute to air for the whole three years? Or did it just recently start?

 

rbeck asked this, and I wanted to re-post it so it didn't get missed:

I'm going to add to that question, and ask more specifically, what aquastat model is installed on the boiler?

This thread needs an anecdote:

A couple days ago, the widder lady next door called me and said her house was cold, could I take a look? So I went over and while talking to her and showing her some things to look for, which pipes to feel, etc... notice that the boiler would fire... up to high limit, heat still calling... down to differential, boiler would fire again... and etc and so on... for the whole time I was explaining to her (again) how her system worked...

Reason I say this is cuz while we were talking, probably a gallon of oil got burnt, and the house didn't get any warmer...

Why? cuz the system was loaded with air... the heat just wasn't getting into the home... the thermostats kept calling and calling and the boiler kept trying and trying...

As soon as I bled out the pipes (again..., she doesn't want to make any changes to alleviate that problem... long story), the boiler fired up once or twice more and heated the house up nicely and shut down to rest...

The moral is: GET THE AIR OUT!