how much flow checking does a flow check valve actually do ?


  #1  
Old 02-01-10, 03:12 PM
C
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: ny
Posts: 24
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
thermostat off , circulator off.... temp goes up ?

hello, ive been noticing that when i close one of the upstairs bedroom doors (the drafty one) the temperature goes up even with the thermostat down.

the zone is extremely large and who ever installed it should be shot.
the whole downstairs is one zone ... 7 rooms guesstimate
60-80 ft of baseboards total for all the rooms.

ive tried opening the valve on top of the boiler feed to that zone and tapping it and closing it but no results.
it just seems like the water is still flowing through and keeping my boiler running

thanks for any input !
 
  #2  
Old 02-01-10, 03:22 PM
M
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: U.S. Midwest
Posts: 1,339
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Do you have zone valves or a separate pump for each zone.

Please post a pix of the valve you've been rapping (post on a "free image hosting" site, and link here. Or post the nameplate data off the valve. Views of your whole boiler area might help, too.

I suspect you may be getting gravity flow when there is no call for heat.
 
  #3  
Old 02-01-10, 03:59 PM
C
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: ny
Posts: 24
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Mike Speed 30 View Post
Do you have zone valves or a separate pump for each zone.

Please post a pix of the valve you've been rapping (post on a "free image hosting" site, and link here. Or post the nameplate data off the valve. Views of your whole boiler area might help, too.

I suspect you may be getting gravity flow when there is no call for heat.
what ive been tapping on is the red dot up top.
the red below is the pump for that zone, they're separate and i have one not in use.
they set them up on the return side....
if you if thats ok ? or the way they are all in line like this ?

also i want to install radiant floor heating zone and maybe some of those panel radiators.

so im open to re doing the way everything is run for the 1st floor zone ... i have a diagram of the way they routed every thing ill post up in as soon as i find it

 
  #4  
Old 02-01-10, 04:49 PM
M
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: U.S. Midwest
Posts: 1,339
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
You have a separate pump for each zone. The valve you've been beating on is a flo-control or lift check valve. Its function is to prevent gravity flow when the associated pump isn't running and to prevent back-low through an idle pump. It is possibly stuck partially open or leaking due to internal deposits. The valve can be replaced with a new one or be rebuilt with a parts kit available from the manufacturer.

The operator on top of the flo-control valve jacks the valve open to allow gravity flow as an emergency when the pump shoots craps. You want that operator turned fully clockwise during normal operation. But if the valve is leaking through, turning the operator one way or the other won't stop it. Beating on the valve might allow the valve to shut temporarily.

The arrangement of the pumps and expansion tank isn't ideal by modern standards. But there are probably a million installations like that that work satisfactorily - and it's not the cause of the problem you describe.
 
  #5  
Old 02-01-10, 04:56 PM
C
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: ny
Posts: 24
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Mike Speed 30 View Post
You have a separate pump for each zone. The valve you've been beating on is a flo-control or lift check valve. Its function is to prevent gravity flow when the associated pump isn't running. It is probably stuck partially open or leaking due to internal deposits. The valve can be replaced with a new one or be rebuilt with a parts kit available from the manufacturer.

The operator on top of the flo-control valve jacks the valve open to allow gravity flow as an emergency when the pump shoots craps. You want that operator turned fully clockwise during normal operation. But if the valve is leaking through, turning the operator one way or the other won't stop it.

The arrangement of the pumps and expansion tank isn't ideal by modern standards. But there are probably a million installations like that that work satisfactorily - and it's not the cause of the problem you describe.

thats what i was thinking
i have the valve closed .
is this something i should replace in the middle of the winter tho ?
there is a manual cut off right after that valve. if i close that im that should stop the flow.
it would be for 8 hours or so during the day.. would it be bad if the circulator turns on with it closed ?
 
  #6  
Old 02-02-10, 06:37 AM
C
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: ny
Posts: 24
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by capehome286 View Post
thats what i was thinking
i have the valve closed .
is this something i should replace in the middle of the winter tho ?
there is a manual cut off right after that valve. if i close that im that should stop the flow.
it would be for 8 hours or so during the day.. would it be bad if the circulator turns on with it closed ?
anybody one else here know what they're doing ?
will manually blocking the flow of the first zone be a problem if the circulator comes on ?
 
  #7  
Old 02-02-10, 07:34 AM
F
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: US
Posts: 65
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Not such a good idea to deadhead the circ.

Would be better to disconnect the t-stat for that zone and then shut off the valve to isolate it.
 
  #8  
Old 02-02-10, 05:54 PM
C
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: ny
Posts: 24
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by formula74 View Post
Not such a good idea to deadhead the circ.

Would be better to disconnect the t-stat for that zone and then shut off the valve to isolate it.
thanks !

also i noticed i have my intake water going feeding the hot supply side of the boiler and not the return , is this a problem ?


also here is the where the baseboards , this is a single pipe that covers downstairs
id like a little advice on how to break this up ? and what would be the best way to do so ?

 
  #9  
Old 02-03-10, 04:05 PM
C
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: ny
Posts: 24
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
ok so i closed that valve this morning, got home and the 2nd floor was hot ... thermostat off.

this this indicate something more ?
 
  #10  
Old 02-04-10, 07:53 AM
C
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: ny
Posts: 24
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts

anybody .... bueller ..... bueller ... ferris bueller ?
 
  #11  
Old 02-17-10, 01:17 PM
C
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: ny
Posts: 24
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
how much flow checking does a flow check valve actually do ?

ive been waiting a month for a response, so ill just start a new thread ...

these valves that stop"gravity flow"
how much resistance do they put up ?
they are supposed to open when the pump goes on, but i think mine dont do anything.

house is 5 years old, they probably never worked right... havent when i moved in 2 years ago.

when i physically close a ball valve for the zone with the "bad" flow check valve it makes the next zone fail. to me it sounds like a whole other problem then just replacing every flow check there is in my system.

heres the pic of the set-up
does any one have any ideas of what is going on here ?

 
  #12  
Old 02-17-10, 04:13 PM
M
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: U.S. Midwest
Posts: 1,339
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
If you suspect that one or more flo-control valves are stuck shut, you can manually jack them open them by turning the operator fully counter-clockwise. Does that make a difference?

Did this problem just start or has it always existed? Verify that the flo-control valves aren't installed backwards.
 
  #13  
Old 02-17-10, 06:10 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,538
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
ive been waiting a month for a response

02-03-10, 06:05 PM


Really? 14 days is a month?

And to paraphrase something you said, comments like "does anybody else here know what they are doing?" don't win friends either.

Part of the problem that I could see with your other thread is that it was kinda 'drifting around' ... asking different questions. My suggestion would be if you want to talk about the check valve, then do that... and if you want to talk about doing something with the zone piping, do that in a separate thread. Staying focused will help. It's YOUR thread, you have the control.

Remember that we are all volunteers. Nobody is 'obliged' to answer any questions. We answer when and if we have time, and you pretty much have to take what you get. Usually if there is no answer, it's because we don't know, or don't want to, or sometimes with all the other posts, they slip into oblivion.
 
  #14  
Old 02-17-10, 07:14 PM
C
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: ny
Posts: 24
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Mike Speed 30 View Post
If you suspect that one or more flo-control valves are stuck shut, you can manually jack them open them by turning the operator fully counter-clockwise. Does that make a difference?

Did this problem just start or has it always existed? Verify that the flo-control valves aren't installed backwards.
no i just think they are stuck open or when one zone comes on the pressure from the system is forcing it through the other zones ... i have verified they are installed in correct direction and i have opened and closed them many times ..
 
  #15  
Old 02-17-10, 07:23 PM
C
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: ny
Posts: 24
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by NJ Trooper View Post

02-03-10, 06:05 PM


Really? 14 days is a month?

And to paraphrase something you said, comments like "does anybody else here know what they are doing?" don't win friends either.

Part of the problem that I could see with your other thread is that it was kinda 'drifting around' ... asking different questions. My suggestion would be if you want to talk about the check valve, then do that... and if you want to talk about doing something with the zone piping, do that in a separate thread. Staying focused will help. It's YOUR thread, you have the control.

Remember that we are all volunteers. Nobody is 'obliged' to answer any questions. We answer when and if we have time, and you pretty much have to take what you get. Usually if there is no answer, it's because we don't know, or don't want to, or sometimes with all the other posts, they slip into oblivion.
ok i over guesstimated.
yea..thats why i started a new one.
what do i say now so youll give me some advice Beer 4U2 ?


i guess i should also mention i just replaced the expansion tank ... which was probably bad for at least a year,maybe since when i moved in... we originally replaced the pressure relief and it kind of fixed a problem and i didnt know anything so didnt know what was going on
 
  #16  
Old 02-17-10, 07:58 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,538
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
I don't know if this is pertinent or not... might be some ejumakayshunal value:

http://www.bellgossett.com/Press/Cou...June2002-A.pdf

This one might learn ya more:

http://www.bellgossett.com/homeowner...valve.asp?ID=2
 
  #17  
Old 02-18-10, 07:17 AM
C
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: ny
Posts: 24
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by NJ Trooper View Post
I don't know if this is pertinent or not... might be some ejumakayshunal value:

http://www.bellgossett.com/Press/Cou...June2002-A.pdf

This one might learn ya more:

Bell & Gossett - The Flo-Control Valve
thanks!
that does help me understand a bit more of the problem.

i know i can easily install a flow control on the return side piping for my upstairs

but the return for my first floor just goes straight down to the circulator, would the fix be to cut it run pipe out horizontal with the flowcontrol on it then back down and over
like installing a sideways U with piping ?

the red dot, the on the circ is the one for the first floor,
all of these pumps are set to pull and are all connected together.

i would think that one one pump goes on its suction is also pulling from the other zones piping.. does that make sense ?
 
  #18  
Old 02-18-10, 03:10 PM
S
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: MA.
Posts: 99
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Cape, you said you think your flochecks aren't doing anything. Does that mean that you're not getting heat or hot water. I notice you have three zones. If you isolate 2 of them does the other one work. Have you tried isolating them one at a time. If they are closed and won't open yor'll never get heat, same with hot water. If they are manually open or stuck open you'll get heat no matter what calls. Exactly what is your problem. As trooper said make sure they are going in the rght direction and make sure the pumps are also going in the right direction.
 
  #19  
Old 02-18-10, 03:50 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,538
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
I think I'm gonna merge the two threads, because there is info in the first thread that explains the problem a bit more...

A zone is getting heat when it shouldn't... ghost flow...

Not sure what Cape means when he says the he closes one ball valve and the next one fails? meaning I suppose that there is now ghost flow in the next zone?

Based on what I've read here, I will venture to say that if you were to install a flow check on the 'bad' zone return, you might solve the problem. It's just a guess... I don't think I like the idea of the 'sideways U' in the piping. You might not need one on the return of ALL the zones... Ghost flow will generally only occur on the 'tallest' zone, so adding to just that one might do it. Perhaps the easiest solution would be to replace that pump with one of the 'IFC' (Internal Flow Check) variety, no piping changes needed.
 

Last edited by NJT; 02-18-10 at 06:01 PM.
  #20  
Old 02-20-10, 08:22 PM
C
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: ny
Posts: 24
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by NJ Trooper View Post
I think I'm gonna merge the two threads, because there is info in the first thread that explains the problem a bit more...

A zone is getting heat when it shouldn't... ghost flow...

Not sure what Cape means when he says the he closes one ball valve and the next one fails? meaning I suppose that there is now ghost flow in the next zone?

Based on what I've read here, I will venture to say that if you were to install a flow check on the 'bad' zone return, you might solve the problem. It's just a guess... I don't think I like the idea of the 'sideways U' in the piping. You might not need one on the return of ALL the zones... Ghost flow will generally only occur on the 'tallest' zone, so adding to just that one might do it. Perhaps the easiest solution would be to replace that pump with one of the 'IFC' (Internal Flow Check) variety, no piping changes needed.
what i meant by the flow checks not working was that they are are letting water through even with the valve in the closed position and the pump off.

in that picture to the right of the flow check for that zone is a shut off valve (what i meant) and when i closed that it made the next zone ghost flow.

the water heater is a very small zone and its hard to know but possibly forcing through there too.

the pump is a good idea thanks !
do you think the rather large zone for the first floor contributes to a ghost flow problem ?

now i have to diverge some, i need to split that zone into 2 (See the diagram picture , the red indicates where my baseboards are,the bottom right room is above the boiler. the flow goes out toward the bottom and flows to the left all the way around to that little detached looking room where it then goes into another smaller rad in the living room and finally returns to the boiler)

and i also wanted to add a radiant heat zone. i have one thermostat in the center of the house and it does not reflect the back half of the house temperature accurately.

i have 1 pump and 1 other supply that are currently not in use. what would be the best way incorporate splitting the one zone and adding a pex type zone with radiant heat?
 
  #21  
Old 02-21-10, 11:29 AM
M
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: U.S. Midwest
Posts: 1,339
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by capehome286 View Post
what i meant by the flow checks not working was that they are are letting water through even with the valve in the closed position and the pump off.
How do you know the flo-check valve(s) are closed (and not sticking open due to wear or contaminents)? The operator on top of the valve can jack the valve open, but it does not manually shut it.
 

Last edited by Mike Speed 30; 02-21-10 at 11:44 AM.
  #22  
Old 02-21-10, 04:26 PM
F
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wet side of Washington state.
Posts: 18,495
Received 37 Upvotes on 29 Posts
Talking

How much flow would a flow check check,
If a flow check could check flow?
It'd check as much as a flow check could
If a flow check would check flow.

 
  #23  
Old 02-21-10, 04:44 PM
M
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: U.S. Midwest
Posts: 1,339
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by furd View Post
How much flow would a flow check check,
If a flow check could check flow?
It'd check as much as a flow check could
If a flow check would check flow.

Totally disgusting. Moderator! Moderator!
 
  #24  
Old 02-21-10, 04:55 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,538
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
You have no idea how much I wanted to do that myself!

It was bound to happen!

Thanks Furd!
 
  #25  
Old 02-25-10, 11:10 AM
L
Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PA
Posts: 2,323
Received 8 Upvotes on 8 Posts
Originally Posted by capehome286 View Post

the zone is extremely large and who ever installed it should be shot.
the whole downstairs is one zone ... 7 rooms guesstimate
60-80 ft of baseboards total for all the rooms.
if ur installer should be shot, what should we do with the 191 ft of baseboard that's just the one zone for my entire house.
 
  #26  
Old 02-25-10, 06:14 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,538
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
Shoot him and skin him?

There's nothing at all wrong with a loop that has 60-70 feet of 3/4" baseboard on it. 80 feet is pushing it a bit, but not too awful much...

191 feet on the other hand... that is a bit much, but I suspect that luckyputter has a 'split loop'...
 
  #27  
Old 02-27-10, 08:59 AM
C
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: ny
Posts: 24
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
har har

what i meant with that subject is that the flow check opens with the circulator on ... right ?
how does it know the circulator is on ? ... pressure ? if so how much ?

EDIT:
also just checked its about 100ft of baseboards ... all the piping for it im guessing is around 300' total .. should i be posting the questions about spliting/adding zones in a different section ?
 
  #28  
Old 02-27-10, 09:08 AM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,538
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
Yes, the pressure of the pump pushes the weighted disk open. how much? hmmm... dunno! Maybe there are specs in the submittal sheets...

I imagine that in extreme cases (i.e. tall buildings), there could be enough pressure for the water itself to push the disk open a bit... and maybe that's what's happening in your system...
 
  #29  
Old 02-27-10, 09:26 PM
L
Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PA
Posts: 2,323
Received 8 Upvotes on 8 Posts
Originally Posted by NJ Trooper View Post
Shoot him and skin him?

There's nothing at all wrong with a loop that has 60-70 feet of 3/4" baseboard on it. 80 feet is pushing it a bit, but not too awful much...

191 feet on the other hand... that is a bit much, but I suspect that luckyputter has a 'split loop'...
oh i definitely have a split since there are 2 returns vs 1 supply but i thought a "zone" means separate thermostat for each?
 
  #30  
Old 02-28-10, 05:20 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,538
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
Yes, zone does generally mean that... but 'loop' doesn't necessarily... you've got two parallel 'loops' on one zone.
 
 

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: