Installing a superstor SSU30-LC


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Old 04-13-10, 07:54 AM
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Installing a superstor SSU30-LC

Hi all, have a Burnham V74 oil burner (coil less) and need to replace the old ford glass indirect with a superstor ultra 30 gal (SSU-30LC) indirect. my question is do i need an aqua-stat and relay box to control the circulator pump or is there a Honeywell equivalent that is both in one device. The circulator pump is a taco 1/6 HP low volume 110v. I would like to have the indirect circulator come on when the water falls below 120?, my low on the burner is set to 130 and high is 150
 
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Old 04-13-10, 09:06 AM
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You will need an aquastat that should have come with the tank. If you had an indirect before it should pipe and wire the same although the pipe size may need to increase. I do not see a SSU-30LC.
The 30 gal capacity tanks I see have an 8 gpm flow @ 6 ft of head. That is really pushing the limits if 1" pipe and will cause you to run a slightly larger pump than standard, You have a 1/6th HP pump. What is the model number and manufacturer's name?
I would consider running higher boiler water temperature than 150f as indirect ratings are based on 180f to 200f boiler water temperature.
 
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Old 04-13-10, 09:41 AM
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Red face

Bought the superstor at home depot which is sold without the aquastat -I purchased a Honeywell L4006 series. The pump is 1/16 Hp not 1/6, will post model in a couple of days. Pipe coming off pump is 3/4 i believe. My real question is since i have a 110v pump do i have the right aquastat to turn the circulator on when it reaches the low threshold? Sorry but you are talking a newbie here. The old setup is a ford glass lined indirect where the circulator is connected directly what looks like an internal relay (110v) to drive the circulator. The tank is starting to leak and the circulator never shuts off. will also try and take some pics..thanks for your feedback
 
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Old 04-13-10, 12:02 PM
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Sounds like you will need a relay like a Taco SR501 or SR502 depending on your pic's. The pipe size will need to be increased to 1".
 
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Old 04-14-10, 04:10 PM
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The L4006 is rated for 120 VAC and should have no issue switching the circ on and off, but it will not give you provisions to run the boiler up to a higher temp for DHW generation purposes would. A Taco SR501 and another L4006 aquastat could do that.
 
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Old 04-15-10, 08:10 AM
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As TO stated an SR501 and an L4006A aquastat should work. How are you controlling the heating pump now? Depending how you are doing this it may be easier to use an SR502 and an L4006A.
Maybe this will help if you want priority.
http://www.comfort-calc.net/Indirect...l_Boilers.html
 
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Old 04-15-10, 09:51 AM
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Question

Thank you rbeck & TOHeating, it looks like the Ford aqua booster has an internal thermostat that the circulator is electrically attached to and driven by (the pumps ac wires are attached to it and there is a small setscrew with a temp dial on it). no matter what settings i use the circulator never shuts off. I took a slew of pictures but cannot post attachments? is there a rule in regards to uploading pics? the circulator is a TACO 006-BT3-1W and the aquastat is L4006A 1967. i have two zones in the house using a honywell two zone aquastat and relay, do not know what the modela rea at this point.
 
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Old 04-15-10, 10:54 AM
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Pics can't be posted directly to the site, you need to first set up an account at an image hosting site such as Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket (free) and upload your pics there. Come back here and post a link to your public album.
 
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Old 04-15-10, 11:00 AM
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Jag, I'm wondering about something...

You are calling the old unit an 'indirect', but then later you are calling it an 'aqua booster'. It is possible that they are two different animals.

The indirect heaters use the NON-POTABLE boiler water to heat the potable water in the tank via a coil (heat exchanger) located inside the indirect tank. It would be piped to the boiler as any other heat zone would.

BOOSTERS are simply storage tanks. There is NO boiler water piped to the tank. The piping would be off a domestic heating coil (heat exchanger) INSIDE the boiler.

You may need to re-think your plans a bit if this is true. The pictures will tell us for sure.
 
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Old 04-15-10, 12:36 PM
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Pictures

ok had alot of issues uploading but was able to get some uploaded to photobucket. Will try adding rest once i get home tonight

Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket
 
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Old 04-15-10, 03:36 PM
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OK, as I suspected, what you are replacing is not technically an 'indirect' water heater. It is merely a storage tank. It uses the internal domestic water heating coil (behind that rectangular plate with all the bolts on it) to draw hot DOMESTIC water through the boiler and store it in the 30 gallon tank.

The SSU that you purchased IS an indirect water heater, but it will not work the same way as the old one. Those two pipe connections on the bottom of the new tank lead into another 'coil' inside the tank. The old one simply recirculates the heated DOMESTIC water that runs through the coil inside the BOILER into the tank, and provides storage for the hot water.

This is not to say that you can't use the new tank for the intended purpose, but it would have to be piped differently, and you would NOT use the connections to the internal coil. Frankly, it is WAY overkill for what you want to do... replace your old tank.

In order to use the SSU as it is intended, you would have to ABANDON the coil inside the boiler. Next, you would have to cut into the actual heating pipes into and out of the boiler and pipe that BOILER water into the coil in the new tank. Then, the domestic water would be piped in and out of the other two ports on the new tank.

You should probably re-think what you are planning... perhaps return the SSU, and find a simple storage tank to replace the leaker. Then, it's basically a 'plug and play' replacement.

You have choices to make...

THIS is the product that is a replacement for your existing unit:

http://www.htproducts.com/literature/lp-32.pdf

Changing over to a true indirect heater such as the one you purchased will be much more costly initially, because there are piping changes, and control changes that you would need to make, but in the LONG RUN, it will be cheaper to run. Payback may take a while though...

By the way, this 'Coil Booster' tank should run several hundred bucks cheaper than the one you have. Also, keep in mind that there are plain steel, glass lined replacements that will be even less money... there are also 'stone lined' solutions out there.
 

Last edited by NJT; 04-15-10 at 04:30 PM.
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Old 04-15-10, 04:28 PM
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One more thing that should be mentioned...

The pump that is currently installed at the hot water tank is an all BRONZE pump, and if you intend to use a new pump with the new tank, you MUST use a Bronze replacement. If you use a cast iron model, you will have red rusty hot water, and the pump won't last very long. This is because of all the dissolved oxygen in the water supply. The boiler water does not need a bronze pump because it is a closed system and there is very little oxygen in that water.

Bronze pumps are very much more $$$ than iron pumps, so don't be tempted! There is a reason for the more expensive pump. If the existing one is still OK, no reason I can see to change it out...
 
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Old 04-15-10, 07:49 PM
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Thank you very much

There are only two of us and i think 30 gals of hot water are plenty even though the bathrooms are on the other side of the house but they no more than 100 ft away. The burner has a round plate on the front and i was told that was where the hot water coil should be so i thought it was coil less but i am guessing this is the coil for DHW. i have read that these coils cannot always keep up with high demands. i will be returning the SS but have to say that it was only $675 and when i look online for the SSU30-CB(SS) its just as much or even more?? Simplicity is what i am after and if i can directly replace i will be happy. i did look at Burnhams stone lined but it was $1000+ , what would you recommend glass or SS. the pump works fine and understand completely about brass / cast and oxygen.... thank you for taking the time to explain it is greatly appreciated.
 
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Old 04-16-10, 08:36 AM
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$675 ? Hmmmm... that sounds like a very low price for the indirect... cheapest I saw that model on line was like a grand? I would double check and make sure that it is what it says it is. Maybe you already have the right one?

I'm puzzled by the low price! Maybe they sold the LC for the same price as the CB ? Maybe the main office mismarked the price? I bet you could turn around and sell them on ebay for more!

The stainless model would have a longer life, but look at how old your steel glass lined one is... but they did make things better back then I think... There are a number of manufacturers of the booster tanks, shop around some and decide, but basically it's longevity that you pay for ... one tank won't do a 'better' job of making hot water, but the more $$$ ones beside being stainless might have more insulation, which would be good of course.

I'm sure that State Industries makes a booster, Vaughn is another, Bradford White... can't think of any others at the moment.
 
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Old 04-16-10, 08:40 AM
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Ya know, for the price you paid for that one, you might think about figuring out how to pipe it up and just not use the coil... and later on, you would be able to switch it over and use the thing as an indirect if you say, had to change out the boiler in the next couple years...

I'm pretty sure it could be adapted to run as a booster... wonder what the other guys think about this idea? anyone?
 
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Old 04-16-10, 08:41 AM
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confused

I know, i just called a major plumbing supplier (Blackman's) and they quoted $875 for the SSU-30CB (special order) which blew me away because i paid only 675 for the indirect? I thought the "LC" meant less controller. finding the SSU-30CB is a challange to begin with but have read that Bradford-White is just as good.
 
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Old 04-16-10, 09:00 AM
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Not sure what the LC means, but makes sense "Less Control" since yours didn't come with one... but still, it's cheap $$$ ! If I had a ton of cash, I might be tempted to buy like ten of them and sell them on ebay... I bet you could make at least $100 each!

Did you ask Blackman's about prices on any other booster tanks? i.e. steel, glass lined ? Brad White is a good manufacture... usually only sells to trade, and not retail, at least around here.
 
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Old 04-16-10, 09:38 AM
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Research

Reseraching Bradford-White, Vaughn and State Ind. will stop by home depot and lowes tonight as well as speak with blackmans again.
 
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Old 04-17-10, 09:18 AM
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I see that HTP (Superstor manufacturer) also has steel glass lined booster tanks, but the smallest one they offer is 50 gallons.
 
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Old 04-19-10, 05:41 AM
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Final Decision

Well looks like i am keeping the susperstor indirect and plumbing it in. Cannot find an aqua booster (storage tank) anyhwere locally smaller than 50 gallons and definitely do not need more than 30 gals for two people. The prices online were between $1000 - $1500 for a 30 gal storage tank (SS/Glass or stoned lined) so i definitely got a great deal on the SS at home deopt. Had a contractor in last weekend to quote gas conversion and he would recommend indirect also. Will let you know how it turns out.
 
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Old 04-19-10, 08:21 AM
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It is the best choice really...

When the coil in the boiler is abandoned, do NOT allow the plumber to cap the pipes on the coil. Leave them open, or if for 'appearance' it is desired to cap them, drill a hole in one of the caps.
 
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Old 04-19-10, 11:10 AM
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Capping

I do not understand, if they are not capped water will leak out?? I am under the imprsesion that water constantly circulates through these coils.
 
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Old 04-19-10, 03:18 PM
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Maybe I misunderstood? You are planning on using the indirect, and having it piped as it should be, with hot boiler water pumping through the heat exchanger inside the indirect tank, correct?

In this case, the coil that is internal to the boiler will (and should) be abandoned. This internal coil is a 'closed' coil... the cold water runs through it, picks up heat from the boiler water and comes out the other pipe hot. If you remove the piping from both ends of this internal coil, there will be nothing running through it... but if you cap it, pressure can build inside it when the boiler is heated... that's why you need to leave it open.
 
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Old 04-19-10, 08:16 PM
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I feel stupid...

No you are correct, i just did not think it all the way through. thank you for all your assistance.
 
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Old 04-20-10, 04:20 PM
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Don't feel that way!

Seriously... fact that you even asked the question means that at least you are thinking about it! and that's a good thing!

Do you know if your installer is going to convert the boiler to 'cold start' ? i.e. change the aquastat to one that only fires when there is a demand from either the heat zones, or the indirect... the aquastat you now have has both a HIGH and LOW limit. The low limit is the one that keeps the boiler warm 24/7, which is not required for an indirect (this is where you will save some bucks on fuel).

BUT... sometimes... perhaps rarely... some boilers that have been run as a warm start their whole lives can have a tendency to 'weep' water when they are allowed to cool, due to the shrinkage of the cast iron. Something to keep in mind.
 
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Old 04-21-10, 05:33 AM
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Current setup

Current setup with two zones, main floor has thin cast iron radiators which heat the house (approx 1300 sq ft) in less than 10 mins. The second zone,basement has approx 30 ft of base board radiators. I have been told the system is a modified system ?. I am told that it is best not to let the cast iron cool and to keep the burner running. The system is using a Honeywell triple aquastat with my low set to 140 and my high set to 160 , two circs are driven by a Honeywell 8124a i believe. "changing the aqauastat" you mean the L4006A1966 i purchased? I understand the concept of cold start but as you mentioned i am afraid the seals may leak from expansion and contraction due to thermal cycling over time. I would really like to have the DMH water circulate only when 1) the water in tanks falls below say 120F or 2) when the burner kicks on to maintain the internal set temp (low). Do i have the right aquastat for this? What do you recommend, it is a small house.
 
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Old 04-21-10, 04:33 PM
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"changing the aqauastat" you mean the L4006A1966 i purchased?
No, I meant the main boiler aquastat which is the Honeywell box mounted on the plate with the tankless coil.

But you do have a point... you may need a DOUBLE POLE aquastat so that you can use one pole to signal the boiler, and one to run the circulator... I think I saw this in the SSU manual when I was reading through it... take a look see, they gave model # I believe.

But first, what aquastat is on the boiler?

and, when you say you have two zones, this means that you have two thermostats, one down and one up, and there are electric zone valves, and one pump for the heating circuits, correct?

Reason I ask is because the type of aquastat you have on the boiler will determine whether or not you need a different one for the indirect. You _may_ still also need another relay box.
 
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Old 04-21-10, 04:52 PM
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You typed L4006A1966 , but I don't show this number in the Honeywell catalog... was it a typo? Did you mean 1967 ? That one is listed.

Apparently HTP had some special Double Pole models made for them, as L4006 "G" models. But those aren't listed in the catalog either... only in the SSU install manual. They are probably available from HTP.

But, you certainly can use the 4006 you have with an external relay if you need to.
 
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Old 04-22-10, 05:32 AM
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Aquastats

yes it is a "1967". i have two circ pumps no zone valves and yes two thermostats. I will gather all info on the electronics over the weekend and post to give a better picture of the overall system. Also took a pic of the inside of the aquastat on the coil but have not had time to post. moving this week.
 
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Old 04-24-10, 08:15 PM
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Smile second set of pictures

Ok NJ trooper just uploaded a second set of pictures, close ups of aquastat and circ relay. here is the link second set pictures by jag11727 - Photobucket
 
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Old 04-24-10, 09:15 PM
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I think I see now why you had confushment about whether or not your boiler had a 'tankless' coil in it.

These boilers could be fitted for hot water, OR steam use. On a STEAM boiler, the coil in the back, the one with the rectangle plate would be used, and for HOT WATER use, there would be a different coil behind the round plate in the front.

It appears to me that your boiler was originally fitted for steam use and converted to hot water. Those 'plugged' openings on the front of the boiler would be where the gauge glass and pressure-trol would be fitted on a steam boiler.

I'm not sure why there is a different location for the coil on a steamer vs. hot water, but it probably has something to do with the fact that a steam boiler has a 'water line', they aren't full of water as a hot water system is, and the coil needs to be below the water line. On a hot water system, the coil can be mounted higher up, where the hottest water in the boiler is.

OK, that explains that...

Your second zone, the one with the circ that's run by the relay box on the side isn't set up to directly fire the burner. If you were to turn the main thermostat all the way down, and the one for that second zone all the way up, the circ would run, but the burner would only fire when the main control sensed that the water in the boiler was cooling off, because that relay isn't communicating electrically with the main boiler control at all. So, when that zone needed heat, it would just have to run the circ until either the main thermostat called the boiler for heat, and it would 'hitch a ride'... or, until it cooled the boiler enough for the low limit to kick in and heat the water. So, in that sense, it does 'communicate', but indirectly, through the water temperature change when the circ runs.

You could leave that the way it is if it's working OK, and you plan on keeping the boiler as a warm start. If you were to switch to cold start, you would want to fit a different relay and wire it a bit differently.

When your tech installs the indirect, he will use a relay such as a R845, or R8845 ... which has the extra contacts to wire to the ZR and ZC terminals in your main boiler aquastat. Using those terminals would allow the water heater to call the burner alone... and not run the circ for the main zone and send heat to the home when it's not needed. That being the case, you can use the 4006 aquastat that you already have on the indirect. It would get wired to the new relay and act as the 'thermostat' connection. When the relay closed, it would run the indirect circulator, and fire the burner.
 
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Old 04-25-10, 03:01 PM
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I don't like the temp settings on the boiler aquastat... the LOW setting must always be at least 20 BELOW the HIGH setting. Yours are nearly the same. Take a look at the front of the white part with the dials on it. The 20 degree statement is printed right on it.

Why is the HIGH setting so low? It should be at least 160, and 180 is the temp that most systems are designed for.

I would raise the HIGH setting to at least 160, and increase the DIFF to 20... can't read the numbers cuz of flash glare, but it looks like it's all the way down.
 
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Old 04-27-10, 10:30 AM
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Low is set to 130 and high is set to 145?, this is the way it was when i moved in. I will change high to 180 and low to 160 when i get home tonight. the second zone thermostat is digital while the first zone is on a honeywell dial thermostat. when i first moved in i turned on the (moved slider switch from off to heat) on the second zone (digital) and lowered the thermostat below the 50F temp in the basement and it fired off the burner which make me believe that the second zone is spliced in. looking at this picture http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/x...t/000_0008.jpg you will see a splice near the cold return. Will have to turn off first zone and try second to see if it fires the burner? i am really learning alot thank you for all your support, more to come.Beer 4U2
 
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Old 04-27-10, 12:37 PM
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Why not turn the low down to like 120 if the indirect is going to start the burner? Sorry if I missed something in the link as I was trying to read between phone calls. Also the piping to the new tank should be at least 1" if it is not already.
 
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Old 04-27-10, 04:58 PM
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First let me address rbeck's comments... and at the same time some of jag's...

Right now the system is running the 'booster tank' which is leaking. Ultimately, when the indirect is installed, it would be a good idea to turn the LOW all the way down, and yes, make sure the installer uses 1" pipe from the boiler to the heat exchanger coil in the indirect...

From what I can see of the way this is wired, turning the LOW down to 120 might at times cheat the '2nd zone' out of hot water... in this pic:



what I see is an R89 relay. The way that it's wired looks like the 2nd zone t'stat is calling it, and the 2nd zone circ is being turned on and off by it. I don't see how this is 'spliced in' to the main boiler control (aquastat), in fact, this relay isn't able to be used in that way. There's only one set of contacts, and those are used for running the circ pump.

The LOW and HIGH settings can be (and probably SHOULD be) MORE than 20 apart, but not LESS THAN that. So, a HIGH setting of say 180 (which is more or less the 'standard' high limit setting) is fine, but there's no reason to raise the LOW. If 140 was providing adequate hot water, leave the LOW at 140, but raise the DIFF to 20.

This is only as long as you continue to use the booster tank! Once the indirect is installed, you can lower the low even more, and save some fuel.

But, as mentioned, this may cheat the 2nd zone of hot enough water... why?

If it is wired the way I mentioned, with the 2nd zone only running the circulator, the ONLY way that zone can actually fire the burner is when the boiler cools below the LOW setting. So what this means is that the water temp in that zone may not be hot enough if it is the only zone calling for heat. If the FIRST zone calls for heat at the same time, the burner will fire, and the water will get hotter... but if the 2nd is all alone, it will get some pretty cool water... how to fix?

A couple ways... your installer could take that relay out when he installs the indirect, and replace it with a 'zone control panel' such as the Taco SR-504. To this panel would be wired both of the zone circulators, both of the zone thermostats, the indirect circulator and the aquastat on the indirect. From this panel would be wires to the main boiler control (aquastat) that would call the burner to fire up. This would be what I would do...

He could also use the previously mentioned 845 or 8845 relay on the indirect, and REPLACE the 89 with the same... and then both heating zones would be able to call the burner, as would the indirect. This is a lot more wiring though... the price of the Taco panel would be only a little more than 2 new relays, but the time saved in wiring would make up for that.
 
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Old 04-27-10, 05:27 PM
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Sorry for the poor quality, fuzzy image, but this is how I would do your wiring:

 
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Old 04-29-10, 07:44 PM
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correct

You are correct NJ Trooper, the 2nd zone is merely pushing water through the burner and is not calling the burner to fire. the low and high settings are now 140/170. the tank thermostat went and now i am running the aqua booster circ pump off a timer on the outlet until i can install the indirect. what ye say about gas heating? girlfriend had me bring in someone to quote gas conversion. I would definitely go with the SR504 when installing the indirect.
 
 

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