Plumbing hydro seperator/circ pump question.


  #1  
Old 06-15-10, 08:44 PM
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Plumbing hydro seperator/circ pump question.

I am in the middle of installing a Triangle Tube Solo 110/Smart 50 with a Caleffi hydro separator to replace my atmospheric Copper heat exchanger boiler that was never plumbed correctly and was side vented improperly.

I am attempting to get it into the same space and reuse my copper zone manifold.

I have 10-12" straight runs out of the Caleffi on the boiler side and on the return side. I tee'd the Smart 50 return into the return of the Caleffi on the zone side.

Problem is without a piping mess I am having trouble getting more the 6" straight out of the Caleffi and then zig a zaggin to get to the out side of the manifold. Reading everything that I can:

The Spirovent needs to be in the lowest pressure point possible in the system, as well as at a high point...so right before the circulation pump, Correct?

The circulation pump (Grundfoss Alpha)... From what I have been reading "should have 12" straight on the output side ideally?

Is there any ill effect of making tight 90s out of the Caleffi? Is it important to have a straight length (what length?) before the the circulation pump?

Can I place the Spirovent any place else? I might exchange it for a vertical... it would make it easier..or if I could put it before the hot water heater pump. but then it would be down low.

Generally, how concerned to I have to be with friction loss due to the 90s? Everything is plumbing (on the heating side) side in 1". The smart 50 is 1 1/4... I reduced it down. Water on the IDHW is 1" and I have necked that down to 3/4". Not looking closely at the specs, I probably should have gone with the 40, which is plumbed 1" & 3/4" but I have 8 month old twins and a Nanny... so I went slightly larger.

Pics forthcoming when I am done.

How does one introduce fluid into the system? I want to run system cleaner for (rhomar) for a few days then flush and fill with a glycol mix.

Any other thoughts?
 

Last edited by mountain99; 06-15-10 at 09:14 PM.
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Old 06-16-10, 01:53 PM
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Need some more info,

What are the heat emitters ?
Very good chance you can shelve the hydraulic isolator.

Otherwise the domestic should be on the boiler side of the isolator.

Lets hear more details of the system please.
 
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Old 06-16-10, 03:21 PM
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5 zones radiant floor with zone valves on the return. No idea if the zones are equal length or anything else. It was existing.

The IDHW is already plumbed off the bottom of the boiler and is returned on the secondary side of the return into the hydraulic separator (T in after the zone manifold)

So my main questions are:

Can I put the spirovent on the primary side feed to the hot water heater?

Can I also put the make up water/expansion tank in that location?

What are the considerations when placing a circulation pump... Which is more critical, straight run before or after?

Looking at the Caleffi website is makes no mention of "x" diameters of straight run in or out of the separator. I have about 12" on every port except the secondary side distribution side. I have a sharper turn than I would like to get to the new circulator and into the outgoing zone manifold.

Thanks!
 
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Old 06-16-10, 03:34 PM
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Here is a link to the application diagram

http://triangletube.com/documents/1/...0%20Manual.pdf

I am using P4 in the application section. I am not using the equalizer, but I am using a hydro separator. I would like to move the fill/spirovent/and expansion tank on the output of the boiler to the IDHW
 
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Old 06-16-10, 07:04 PM
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I would recommend Fig 10 on page 21.
Add a pump on the supply side of the indirect port on the TT, join the returns close to the boiler and remember to use check valve so the heat from the DHW call during summer can't migrate up the return lines.

The indirect has some air removal on the top of the tank that helps.

Put the air elimination, and fill package / expansion tank in the system loop going to your radiant zones.

Try to get some straight pipe before the spirovent, but don't sweat it if you can't get what they want. You are going to use the outdoor reset, and the zones will have long run times.
 
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Old 06-16-10, 07:44 PM
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Whats the difference between a spring loaded vs a flapper valve... Is one better than the other? I plan on it on the T before the Caleffi

Does the circulation pump need to be in a straight run of pipe?

Here is a photo with my progress. I intend to get rid of the 2x4s and use unistrut when I am done and will do a bunch more support. I am just laying things out right now.

I yes, I would do things completely different if this wasn't existing laundry room with one free wall (other has laundry an window)

THANKS!





Originally Posted by TOHeating View Post
I would recommend Fig 10 on page 21.
Add a pump on the supply side of the indirect port on the TT, join the returns close to the boiler and remember to use check valve so the heat from the DHW call during summer can't migrate up the return lines.

The indirect has some air removal on the top of the tank that helps.

Put the air elimination, and fill package / expansion tank in the system loop going to your radiant zones.

Try to get some straight pipe before the spirovent, but don't sweat it if you can't get what they want. You are going to use the outdoor reset, and the zones will have long run times.
 
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Old 06-16-10, 08:32 PM
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I should add that the zone wiring is from the previous install. I left it hanging so I wouldn't have to wonder which thermostat wire went with which valve...

I work cleaner than that
 
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Old 06-17-10, 03:26 AM
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You have an air vent on the Caleffi. You don't need the spirovent.
 
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Old 06-17-10, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by xiphias View Post
You have an air vent on the Caleffi. You don't need the spirovent.
And an airvent on the indirect, both together will do the job
 
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Old 06-17-10, 09:07 AM
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Thanks for the response, what about the expansion tank? Can I place it on the inlet to the indirect along with the boiler make up?
 
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Old 06-17-10, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by mountain99 View Post
Whats the difference between a spring loaded vs a flapper valve... Is one better than the other? I plan on it on the T before the Caleffi

Does the circulation pump need to be in a straight run of pipe?

Here is a photo with my progress. I intend to get rid of the 2x4s and use unistrut when I am done and will do a bunch more support. I am just laying things out right now.

I yes, I would do things completely different if this wasn't existing laundry room with one free wall (other has laundry an window)

THANKS!
A few comments on the pic.
The return from the indirect NEEDS to go before the hydraulic seperator, not after.
The spring check offers more placement options than a swing check does.
The fill package can go BEFORE the DHW circ at the boiler no problem (as well as the expansion tank)
IS your return line above your supply line at the seperator ? If so, I would not do that.
 
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Old 06-17-10, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by TOHeating View Post
A few comments on the pic.
The return from the indirect NEEDS to go before the hydraulic seperator, not after.
The spring check offers more placement options than a swing check does.
The fill package can go BEFORE the DHW circ at the boiler no problem (as well as the expansion tank)
IS your return line above your supply line at the seperator ? If so, I would not do that.
Thanks... glad you caught my mistake on the indirect.

Spring valve = good

Fill package on the DHW makes things much easier

As for the return above the the supply. The supply is on the bottom of the Caleffi according to the flow diagram on it... Don't know why, its just labeled that way..

and about the other comments about not needing the spirovent?
 
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Old 06-17-10, 06:39 PM
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Well, the separator needs to have its supply at the top.
You will mix your water temps way to much and reduce the eff. of the system by increasing your RWT (return water temp).
http://www.caleffi.us/en_US/Technica...1076/01076.pdf

Look at the drawings further down, they show supply on top .
Think about it heat rises.

You should not need the spirovent with the separator, kinda what it does too.
 
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Old 06-17-10, 06:48 PM
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Ok I was looking at it backwards because I have the boiler on the right side. Can either side be the primary?
 
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Old 06-18-10, 04:37 AM
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Yeah, either side is fine.
 
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Old 06-18-10, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by TOHeating View Post
Yeah, either side is fine.
I truly appreciate your help...even with my mistakes, I am still happy to be doing this myself (saving $8000 helps to)

I have asked ?s elsewhere and get treated pretty poorly...

Thanks again!

Howard
 
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Old 06-18-10, 08:51 AM
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I have asked ?s elsewhere and get treated pretty poorly...
Some of the 'elsewhere' places are frequented by the HVAC Gods, and they don't/won't speak to DIY mortals... sad but true.

I agree with the others that you don't really need the Spirovent in addition to the hydro-sep.
 

Last edited by NJT; 06-18-10 at 08:52 AM. Reason: by the way, that is one nice Bronco!
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Old 06-18-10, 12:32 PM
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Thanks all, and I will post pictures when done...
 
 

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