dividing 1 zone home to 2 zones with picture
#1
09-07-10, 07:51 AM
dividing 1 zone home to 2 zones with picture
My entire house has been setup as 1 zone originally when I purchased the house. Thermostat on first floor second floor also heated so in the winter it was hot up there when it was warm downstairs.
I split and piped it up last night, I wanted to make sure how I did it is acceptable practice or if I need to take it the next step further.
Previously there was a single feed and single return with each baseboard tapped off the main lines all the way around.
I cut the return lines (3/4') for both 2nd floor rooms and T'd them into a new circulator (1") branched off the main line.
Is it acceptable to leave them tapped into the main feed or do they have to have a secondary feed of their own?
I understand I will probably have some mild bleed over between the 2. I don't need the ability to completely have 1 cold and 1 hot zone, just better control over the 2.
Here is my diagram I drew of the whole system.
Thoughts?
I split and piped it up last night, I wanted to make sure how I did it is acceptable practice or if I need to take it the next step further.
Previously there was a single feed and single return with each baseboard tapped off the main lines all the way around.
I cut the return lines (3/4') for both 2nd floor rooms and T'd them into a new circulator (1") branched off the main line.
Is it acceptable to leave them tapped into the main feed or do they have to have a secondary feed of their own?
I understand I will probably have some mild bleed over between the 2. I don't need the ability to completely have 1 cold and 1 hot zone, just better control over the 2.
Here is my diagram I drew of the whole system.
Thoughts?
#2
09-07-10, 03:52 PM
A quick look tells me that should probably be OK...
You have a 'two pipe' system, and sometimes valves are installed on each heating unit to control the flow... something you can't do with a 1 pipe 'series' system. I'm guessing there were no valves to close to regulate flow to the upstairs?
I might have looked into a nifty device called a "Thermostatic Radiator Valve" which would allow individual adjustement in each BR, no wiring, etc... See:
pexsupply.com/Danfoss-Thermostatic-Radiator-Valves-
What are your plans for controlling the 3rd circulator?
Yes, there may well be some heat escaping from one zone to the other during the winter, and as you say, may not be a bad thing, in fact, it may just be enough to provide the needed heat in those rooms! maybe that 3rd circ won't ever run!
I say try it and see how it goes...
You have a 'two pipe' system, and sometimes valves are installed on each heating unit to control the flow... something you can't do with a 1 pipe 'series' system. I'm guessing there were no valves to close to regulate flow to the upstairs?
I might have looked into a nifty device called a "Thermostatic Radiator Valve" which would allow individual adjustement in each BR, no wiring, etc... See:
pexsupply.com/Danfoss-Thermostatic-Radiator-Valves-
What are your plans for controlling the 3rd circulator?
Yes, there may well be some heat escaping from one zone to the other during the winter, and as you say, may not be a bad thing, in fact, it may just be enough to provide the needed heat in those rooms! maybe that 3rd circ won't ever run!
I say try it and see how it goes...
#3
09-08-10, 05:31 AM
Hi NJ
Yes there are ball valves at the return on both upstairs feeds, I have not yet started messing with them though. Hopefully that should be able to put enough resistance on the system to help prevent some of the migration If I put a good amount of drag on them (without interfering with the other circulator)? My guess is the total baseboard return path (both) is about 75 feet total pipe from baseboard to circulator.
I don't need precision cut control but I do still want to be able to operate them independently. I don't want second floor calls to bleed enough to completely heat the first floor and vise versa enough to not need calls.
Thanks for bringing up the thermostatic valves too, I don't want those for the second floor but I have 1 room that could be handy in which always gets hot.
My plan for the 3rd circulator has been to use a dumb switching relay like the taco sr501 and a thermostat on the second floor. That way I can control what time heating events take place to save money as well. My aquastat doesn't have the capacity to support a 3rd circulator and I cant imagine its worth replacing it when I can just get a relay for this zone.
Yes there are ball valves at the return on both upstairs feeds, I have not yet started messing with them though. Hopefully that should be able to put enough resistance on the system to help prevent some of the migration If I put a good amount of drag on them (without interfering with the other circulator)? My guess is the total baseboard return path (both) is about 75 feet total pipe from baseboard to circulator.
I don't need precision cut control but I do still want to be able to operate them independently. I don't want second floor calls to bleed enough to completely heat the first floor and vise versa enough to not need calls.
Thanks for bringing up the thermostatic valves too, I don't want those for the second floor but I have 1 room that could be handy in which always gets hot.
My plan for the 3rd circulator has been to use a dumb switching relay like the taco sr501 and a thermostat on the second floor. That way I can control what time heating events take place to save money as well. My aquastat doesn't have the capacity to support a 3rd circulator and I cant imagine its worth replacing it when I can just get a relay for this zone.
#4
09-08-10, 03:17 PM
I would just wire it up and try it... I doubt that a heat call from the upstairs will overheat the downstairs... and probably not vice versa either.
Ball valves are pretty terrible for 'throttling' purposes. They are VERY sensitive to adjust, and when they are throttled down often get noisy. Something like 90% of the adjustment range is going to be in the last 10% of the valve travel before closing completely. But maybe they are 'globe' valves, or 'plug' valves?
About wiring it up... the 501 relay will work fine. There are two relay 'poles', and the second pole you will be firing the boielr with, correct? In other words, if you just run the circ with the relay, there will be nothing to tell the boiler to fire unless you wire it up.
How is the indirect circ being controlled?
What aquastat is on the boiler?
Ball valves are pretty terrible for 'throttling' purposes. They are VERY sensitive to adjust, and when they are throttled down often get noisy. Something like 90% of the adjustment range is going to be in the last 10% of the valve travel before closing completely. But maybe they are 'globe' valves, or 'plug' valves?
About wiring it up... the 501 relay will work fine. There are two relay 'poles', and the second pole you will be firing the boielr with, correct? In other words, if you just run the circ with the relay, there will be nothing to tell the boiler to fire unless you wire it up.
How is the indirect circ being controlled?
What aquastat is on the boiler?
#5
09-08-10, 08:24 PM
definitely ball valves, they were already in place in the system when it was first setup.
The relay would be a dummy control purely to activate the circulator on a thermostat heat call installed alongside of whats there sharing only wire. The honeywell aquastat in place has an adjustable high/low/differential and can/will handle boiler water temperatures.
The indirect water heater is just treated as another zone off the aquastat as far as its concerned. I just dont have another zone controller and thermostat input for the 3rd circulator. circulator on water heater has ifc, new circulator does not (although I am considering now adding one in addition)
The relay would be a dummy control purely to activate the circulator on a thermostat heat call installed alongside of whats there sharing only wire. The honeywell aquastat in place has an adjustable high/low/differential and can/will handle boiler water temperatures.
The indirect water heater is just treated as another zone off the aquastat as far as its concerned. I just dont have another zone controller and thermostat input for the 3rd circulator. circulator on water heater has ifc, new circulator does not (although I am considering now adding one in addition)
#6
09-09-10, 03:16 PM
The honeywell aquastat in place has an adjustable high/low/differential
With a triple aquastat such as you have, you could just run the 3rd circ indepent of controlling the boiler firing, because that aquastat keeps the boiler at the LOW setpoint at all times, 24/7, which IMHO is a huge waste of energy.
You only need that if you are using an internal domestic coil in the boiler. You are running an indirect water heater, so the boiler could, and probably should be allowed to go 'cold' when the water heater, or the heating zones aren't calling.
If you were running the boiler as a 'cold start', you couldn't do what you want to, because there may be times when the upstairs would be calling for heat, and the pump would be pumping cool water... waiting for the downstairs to heat the water up...
But, there is also no reason at all that you couldn't wire up the second pole on the 501 to fire the boiler. A simple matter.
The indirect water heater is just treated as another zone off the aquastat
If it were my system, I would dump that triple aquastat pronto, replacing it with a cold start model, and pick up a Taco (or other) zone control panel, i.e. SR 504... and probably save enough energy in one or two years to pay for the parts.
