radiant slad heat
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radiant slad heat
Just found this site. Lots of good advice to be found here.
I have a DIY house I build from plans, It's 2100 sqf with 800 sqf garage. All built slab on grade with 2" insulation under it and 2 1/2" on the edge, or side of the 2' thick drop footing.
I have lived in this house for 2yrs now, this will be the 3rd winter. And I dont have the heating system set up the way it should be yet. It's kind of a tempary setup I did for speed and cost during construction. And now I think its time to start to plumb, zone and wire it the right way.
I have 3 manifolds HeatLink brand 1 for garage w/3 loops 2 for house 1 w/4 loops and 1 w/6 loops... 1/2" pex in slab
The Boiler a Peerless Pinnacale 93% condensing 88,000 BTU.
Boiler is located in the garage and the manifolds are in the house. 40 ft of 1" pex connects the two.
First this I want feed back on is the way I have the two pumps set up. Pump #1 a GrundFos Type UP26-99f is mounted just before and pumping directly in to the 3 manifolds. Pump # 2 a GrundFos Type 15-42 is mounted on the return line just before it goes back in to the boiler. With these two pumps at different GPM is this wrong ? The bigger 26-99 pump gets alot warmer than the smaller 15-42, after they have been running.
Thank in advance, Buzz
I have a DIY house I build from plans, It's 2100 sqf with 800 sqf garage. All built slab on grade with 2" insulation under it and 2 1/2" on the edge, or side of the 2' thick drop footing.
I have lived in this house for 2yrs now, this will be the 3rd winter. And I dont have the heating system set up the way it should be yet. It's kind of a tempary setup I did for speed and cost during construction. And now I think its time to start to plumb, zone and wire it the right way.
I have 3 manifolds HeatLink brand 1 for garage w/3 loops 2 for house 1 w/4 loops and 1 w/6 loops... 1/2" pex in slab
The Boiler a Peerless Pinnacale 93% condensing 88,000 BTU.
Boiler is located in the garage and the manifolds are in the house. 40 ft of 1" pex connects the two.
First this I want feed back on is the way I have the two pumps set up. Pump #1 a GrundFos Type UP26-99f is mounted just before and pumping directly in to the 3 manifolds. Pump # 2 a GrundFos Type 15-42 is mounted on the return line just before it goes back in to the boiler. With these two pumps at different GPM is this wrong ? The bigger 26-99 pump gets alot warmer than the smaller 15-42, after they have been running.
Thank in advance, Buzz
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It's wrong if the system is not piped primary/secondary. Otherwise, you have pumps in series and that ain't right, at least for the application as you've described it.
If it's primary/secondary, then the pump for the boiler loop should be sized to provide the flow rate specified by the manufacturer.
The pump for the distribution loops should be sized for the head loss and temperature drop of the system as designed.
If it's primary/secondary, then the pump for the boiler loop should be sized to provide the flow rate specified by the manufacturer.
The pump for the distribution loops should be sized for the head loss and temperature drop of the system as designed.
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Xiphias, Thanks for the reply. Yes, the pumps are in series. One should be removed ? The primary/secondary you talked of. Would that be if I had a mixing valve it would be primary loop? And secondary would be from mixing valve to manifold pump ? Head loss ? Don't know. Temperature drop Boiler water temp goes in manifold at 110 and comes out of slab about 80-85. I'll give you a little more information on the in floor loops, maybe for head loss. Manifold #1 garage 850 ft 3 loops 1/2" pex #2 house 1124 ft 4 loops 1/2" pex #3 house 1516 ft 6 loops 1/2" pex 3490 ft total 1/2" pex With that many feet of pex that's why I added the bigger 32 GPM pump. System Design ? I had a heat loss done, thats all design I've had done. Any more help would be great, Thanks Again, Buzz
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Here's the I&O manual for the Pinnacle
http://peerlessboilers.com/DesktopMo...hod=attachment
(I think that'll work. If not, go to peerlessboilers.com and go to the tech section and find the manual.)
The installation shows how to pipe primary/secondary, and it provides a guide for sizing the boiler loop circulator.
To figure the head of the radiant circuits, use Taco's TD10 "Selecting Circulators." taco-hvac.com.
The Pinnacle is a re-badged HTProducts Munchkin. They also have some excellent piping diagrams.
http://peerlessboilers.com/DesktopMo...hod=attachment
(I think that'll work. If not, go to peerlessboilers.com and go to the tech section and find the manual.)
The installation shows how to pipe primary/secondary, and it provides a guide for sizing the boiler loop circulator.
To figure the head of the radiant circuits, use Taco's TD10 "Selecting Circulators." taco-hvac.com.
The Pinnacle is a re-badged HTProducts Munchkin. They also have some excellent piping diagrams.
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re;
I found my Installation & Operation Manual. My boiler has a flow rate of 6.4 (gpm), with a pressure drop of 5.0 (ft).
So dose it mean that my primary loop at my boiler should have this size pump ? The pump I have installed now in return line now has a 0-15 (gpm). Its the Grundfos up15-42f. Would this be to many gpm. Or would a pump like the up15-10f with a 0-8 (gpm) be better ? Why are these pump rated at Zero to____ gpm ? Does it mean they would run at, say 4 gpm if they were restricted ?
Thanks again, Buzz
So dose it mean that my primary loop at my boiler should have this size pump ? The pump I have installed now in return line now has a 0-15 (gpm). Its the Grundfos up15-42f. Would this be to many gpm. Or would a pump like the up15-10f with a 0-8 (gpm) be better ? Why are these pump rated at Zero to____ gpm ? Does it mean they would run at, say 4 gpm if they were restricted ?
Thanks again, Buzz
#8
I dunno answers... maybe...
You are correct that as the pump is restricted, it will pump less water. That's exactly what the pump curve charts show.
So, let's say you want to pump 6.4 GPM at 5' of head... find a pump where these numbers tend to intersect... usually better to pump a bit more than a bit less, if none are exact. You usually want a pump with a 'flatter' curve, rather than a 'steep' one.
I would plan on using one of the recommended pumps in the I&O manual.
Head loss... straight pipe or tubing has X number of feet of head per X (usually 100) feet of pipe at a given flow rate. Each 'fitting' has a head that is expressed in feet (of straight pipe). You need to add all these numbers up, and come up with a number called TEL (Total Equivalent Length) of pipe. Then you multiply that with the spec for the tubing to come up with total head.
In parallel circuits, you typically would use only the most restrictive of the circuits for pump selection purposes. This is because if you can pump the most restrictive, you can pump the others...
Me, I would probably go with the zone valves and one pump, just from an electricity saving angle... but others like pumps ... it's like chocolate and vanilla ... your choice.
Are you currently running full temp water to the radiant manifolds? Radiant is usually run at lower temps ... you probably need mixing valves and pumps ... look at the way the radiant panels are shown in the Peerless manual ...
Your end result piping diagram is going to look like a combination of elements from several of the diagrams in that manual.
You are correct that as the pump is restricted, it will pump less water. That's exactly what the pump curve charts show.
So, let's say you want to pump 6.4 GPM at 5' of head... find a pump where these numbers tend to intersect... usually better to pump a bit more than a bit less, if none are exact. You usually want a pump with a 'flatter' curve, rather than a 'steep' one.
I would plan on using one of the recommended pumps in the I&O manual.
Head loss... straight pipe or tubing has X number of feet of head per X (usually 100) feet of pipe at a given flow rate. Each 'fitting' has a head that is expressed in feet (of straight pipe). You need to add all these numbers up, and come up with a number called TEL (Total Equivalent Length) of pipe. Then you multiply that with the spec for the tubing to come up with total head.
In parallel circuits, you typically would use only the most restrictive of the circuits for pump selection purposes. This is because if you can pump the most restrictive, you can pump the others...
Me, I would probably go with the zone valves and one pump, just from an electricity saving angle... but others like pumps ... it's like chocolate and vanilla ... your choice.
Are you currently running full temp water to the radiant manifolds? Radiant is usually run at lower temps ... you probably need mixing valves and pumps ... look at the way the radiant panels are shown in the Peerless manual ...
Your end result piping diagram is going to look like a combination of elements from several of the diagrams in that manual.
Last edited by NJT; 12-23-08 at 05:32 PM.
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pump sizing
I've been looking at Taco TD-10 selecting circulators, as Xiphias said to. Trying to figure ft of head. Boiler Loop was easy, because of All piping same size 1 1/4". But have a little me difficulty doing the primary loop.
The 90' of 1" pex I got the head figured out, and all the 1" copper piping to the manifolds. That is about 13.3 ft of head.
But how do you do the 3 manifolds of 1/2" pex ?
Do I Just do the manifold with the most Loops ? That would be 522 ft of head !
Or do I just do the longest loop on the manifold ? That would be about 35.2 ft of head.
NJ Trooper asked if I was running full temp water through manifolds...... NO ..... Aquastat on boiler is set for 125* and thats about the only higher I can get the temp up the way the boiler and piping is set up now.
Thats why I need to Replumb and pump my system. So on them cold nights say -10* to -30* I could maybe put 130*-140* water through the slab for the heat loss at those cold temps.
Thanks for any help, Buzz
HAPPY NEW YEAR,Beer 4U2
The 90' of 1" pex I got the head figured out, and all the 1" copper piping to the manifolds. That is about 13.3 ft of head.
But how do you do the 3 manifolds of 1/2" pex ?
Do I Just do the manifold with the most Loops ? That would be 522 ft of head !
Or do I just do the longest loop on the manifold ? That would be about 35.2 ft of head.
NJ Trooper asked if I was running full temp water through manifolds...... NO ..... Aquastat on boiler is set for 125* and thats about the only higher I can get the temp up the way the boiler and piping is set up now.
Thats why I need to Replumb and pump my system. So on them cold nights say -10* to -30* I could maybe put 130*-140* water through the slab for the heat loss at those cold temps.
Thanks for any help, Buzz
HAPPY NEW YEAR,Beer 4U2
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3 loops of 1/2" pex, 1/2" dia, each 200 ft long, coming off the same manifold will flow about 1.2 gpm each, at 125F supply temp. The total would be 3.7 gpm at a head of 10.1 ft. That's with a Taco 007.
If you had 5 loops, you'd probably be around 1.1 gpm in each loop and the total head would be under 10 ft.
BTW, at these parameters, each loop would give about 4800 BTU/hr assuming 1.5" concrete slab and 6" tube spacing.
If you had 5 loops, you'd probably be around 1.1 gpm in each loop and the total head would be under 10 ft.
BTW, at these parameters, each loop would give about 4800 BTU/hr assuming 1.5" concrete slab and 6" tube spacing.
#11
If I'm following this correctly, you guys are ADDING the head in parallel loops?
Not correct.
Let's use a simple example... Two parallel loops, one with a head of 10 ft, and one with a head of 5 feet. Individually that is...
Put them in parallel.
Would the resultant TOTAL head be 15 ft? No, it wouldn't. It would be LESS THAN 5 FT.
Let's say you have two pieces of 1/2" pipe the same length. In parallel, the net result would be the same as one LARGER piece of pipe, equal to roughly the same cross-sectional area of the two smaller pipes... with a resultant smaller head.
There is an electrical analogy ... RESISTORS (Xiphias loves when I use resistors as analogy! ) Two resistors in parallel will always have a lower total resistance than the lowest of the two. Piping head works the same way.
[edit: The electrical analogy is LINEAR, but the hydraulic reality is most definitely NOT... where two resistors of the same resistance would present as HALF as much, two loops of piping would be less than the highest, but not as low as half...]
So, bottom line is that you always size the pump for the single highest head loop. If you can pump that loop, you can pump the others. And, as the other zones open and close, the pump will adjust the flow according to the pump curve.
Not correct.
Let's use a simple example... Two parallel loops, one with a head of 10 ft, and one with a head of 5 feet. Individually that is...
Put them in parallel.
Would the resultant TOTAL head be 15 ft? No, it wouldn't. It would be LESS THAN 5 FT.
Let's say you have two pieces of 1/2" pipe the same length. In parallel, the net result would be the same as one LARGER piece of pipe, equal to roughly the same cross-sectional area of the two smaller pipes... with a resultant smaller head.
There is an electrical analogy ... RESISTORS (Xiphias loves when I use resistors as analogy! ) Two resistors in parallel will always have a lower total resistance than the lowest of the two. Piping head works the same way.
[edit: The electrical analogy is LINEAR, but the hydraulic reality is most definitely NOT... where two resistors of the same resistance would present as HALF as much, two loops of piping would be less than the highest, but not as low as half...]
So, bottom line is that you always size the pump for the single highest head loop. If you can pump that loop, you can pump the others. And, as the other zones open and close, the pump will adjust the flow according to the pump curve.
Last edited by NJT; 01-03-09 at 08:57 PM.
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Read my post carefully, Troop, and you will see that it follows what you describe.
#15
On page 14 of this PDF file
Manual of Modern Hydronics
there is a chart that gives head per 100 feet for a range of tubing sizes and flow rates.
1/2" XPA is said to have around 2.5' head per 100 feet at 1.5 GPM. So, 300 feet is 7.5' head. Somewhat higher for standard pex (smaller I.D). You should consult the charts from the manufacturer of your tubing though, but it's gonna be 'close enough' most likely.
Are you saying that the longest single loop running off any one of the manifolds is 300' ?
Manual of Modern Hydronics
there is a chart that gives head per 100 feet for a range of tubing sizes and flow rates.
1/2" XPA is said to have around 2.5' head per 100 feet at 1.5 GPM. So, 300 feet is 7.5' head. Somewhat higher for standard pex (smaller I.D). You should consult the charts from the manufacturer of your tubing though, but it's gonna be 'close enough' most likely.
Are you saying that the longest single loop running off any one of the manifolds is 300' ?
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Yes, 300', but is filled with 50/50 anti freeze. I think that will add sum head.
And what you guys were saying is the head will be less with 6 loops X 300' ?
And what you guys were saying is the head will be less with 6 loops X 300' ?
#17
The anti-freeze will probably affect the head somewhat, but moreso it's ability to move the heat... not sure the exact amount, but the output does go down from what you could get with water.
Let's say that you have six 300' loops of 1/2" tubing, each loop wants 1.5 GPM of flow. Each loop by itself is say 7.5' head.
The total flow in the manifold wants to be 7.5 GPM. You will need to feed that manifold with 1" tubing.
Xiph can tell ya for sure, but I _THINK_ you are probably looking at only 2-3' Head TOTAL for said manifold. His numbers were a lot higher than that, based on what the software said... so that's why I'm not sure...
Let's say that you have six 300' loops of 1/2" tubing, each loop wants 1.5 GPM of flow. Each loop by itself is say 7.5' head.
The total flow in the manifold wants to be 7.5 GPM. You will need to feed that manifold with 1" tubing.
Xiph can tell ya for sure, but I _THINK_ you are probably looking at only 2-3' Head TOTAL for said manifold. His numbers were a lot higher than that, based on what the software said... so that's why I'm not sure...
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Yes feeding manifold with 1" pex. But what happens if one more manifold calls for heat, or the garage manifold calls for heat also. Do you think the 1" pex would be enough ? Or would I be better off investing in 1-1/4" pex?
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I e-mailed Taco and told them the lengths of the pex loops per manifolds. They told me to use a Taco 007 circ. per manifold.
I also asked them what controllers they would recommend.
They suggested using ..... Taco SR503-1EXP and a PC700-2 outdoor reset control.
What do you guys think about these controllers? Have you had any feedback or discussion on them ?
How about the 007 circ., would It be better to 007ifc ? Or dont I need flow control on a primary/secondary?
And a question from my previous post. Do you think I will have enough flow or BTU though 1" pex , for secondary piping ? The primary piping is 1-1/4" copper.
Thanks, Buzz
I also asked them what controllers they would recommend.
They suggested using ..... Taco SR503-1EXP and a PC700-2 outdoor reset control.
What do you guys think about these controllers? Have you had any feedback or discussion on them ?
How about the 007 circ., would It be better to 007ifc ? Or dont I need flow control on a primary/secondary?
And a question from my previous post. Do you think I will have enough flow or BTU though 1" pex , for secondary piping ? The primary piping is 1-1/4" copper.
Thanks, Buzz
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If the Pinnacle does not already have an outdoor reset package, then the PC-700 might do it. But I'm not sure how the boiler would modulate in that case. Not familiar with how that boiler is set up.
But on the simpler questions, yes, the 007s would be fine. Use flow checks in the isolation valves, or flow checks in the lines. Or use a 007-IFC, or if you want a different brand try the Grundfos 15-58 with IFC.
You'll need the SR relay (no need for the EXP version if not using the PC700) in any event.
But on the simpler questions, yes, the 007s would be fine. Use flow checks in the isolation valves, or flow checks in the lines. Or use a 007-IFC, or if you want a different brand try the Grundfos 15-58 with IFC.
You'll need the SR relay (no need for the EXP version if not using the PC700) in any event.
#21
(no need for the EXP version if not using the PC700)
I thought the Peerless Pinochle had a built in ODR ? I haven't looked that closely at it, but there was a thread recently that indicated that it did...
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The newer Pinnacle have ODR, mine is 4 years old now.
What's a Pump excercise module ?
How about tekmar brand controllers and ODR ? What do they offer I could look into ?
What's a Pump excercise module ?
How about tekmar brand controllers and ODR ? What do they offer I could look into ?
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I dont think any of them PC600 cards are anything I need.
I have a question about primary loop closely spaced tee's. Does it matter if the tee's are plumbed as followed ?
#1. Primary loop 1-1/4" copper. Use 1-1/4"X1-1/4"X1" tee.
Then stub out about 12" of 1" copper off this tee, then
adapt to 1" pex. for the secondary loop.
OR
#2. Primary loop 1-1/4" copper. Use 1-1/4"X1-1/4"X1-1/4"tee
Then stub out about 12" of 1-1/4" off this tee, then use
a 1-1/4X1" adapter then adapt to the 1" pex secondary.
My thinking on #2 is, If the 1" pex secondary doesn't flow enough BTU's I might change it to 1-1/4" pex. Then I wouldnt have to re-plumb my primary tee's. I only would have to remove the 1-1/4"X1" adapter. What you guy's think ?
I have a question about primary loop closely spaced tee's. Does it matter if the tee's are plumbed as followed ?
#1. Primary loop 1-1/4" copper. Use 1-1/4"X1-1/4"X1" tee.
Then stub out about 12" of 1" copper off this tee, then
adapt to 1" pex. for the secondary loop.
OR
#2. Primary loop 1-1/4" copper. Use 1-1/4"X1-1/4"X1-1/4"tee
Then stub out about 12" of 1-1/4" off this tee, then use
a 1-1/4X1" adapter then adapt to the 1" pex secondary.
My thinking on #2 is, If the 1" pex secondary doesn't flow enough BTU's I might change it to 1-1/4" pex. Then I wouldnt have to re-plumb my primary tee's. I only would have to remove the 1-1/4"X1" adapter. What you guy's think ?
#29
Aren't the side ports (bulls) of the tees in CST setup always supposed to be at least one pipe size smaller than the RUN of the primary loop? I can't recall having seen them the same size...
Xiph, isn't there a paper on this that buzz can read? Was it at Taco? or one of the Tekmar essays?
I have to say first that I really haven't been following this thread very closely... and this may not apply... but here's the paper I was thinking of... worth a read in any case:
Mixing Methods and Sizing of Variable Speed Injection Pumps
Xiph, isn't there a paper on this that buzz can read? Was it at Taco? or one of the Tekmar essays?
I have to say first that I really haven't been following this thread very closely... and this may not apply... but here's the paper I was thinking of... worth a read in any case:
Mixing Methods and Sizing of Variable Speed Injection Pumps
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P/S piping
What do you guys think would this work for my P/S piping ?
hope my picture is there for you to see, first time trying.
http://i308.photobucket.com/albums/k...2475/Plans.jpg
hope my picture is there for you to see, first time trying.
http://i308.photobucket.com/albums/k...2475/Plans.jpg
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What do you moderators and plumbers think of my piping drawing I posted ? I want to get my Peerless Pinnacle boiler plumbed right before the next cold snap, this weekend. Any and all input would be great. You people have been loads of information for me, and lots of others. Thanks, Buzz
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Sure why not. Keeping in mind that I'm neither a plumber nor a moderator.
It is generally good practice to follow the manufacturer's installation instructions. Your diagram appears to do that. It is similar to Figure 3.4 in the Pinnacle I&O manual.
You don't need the little air vent on the elbow at the top of the primary loop.
Don't forget all the valves, drains and unions.
It is generally good practice to follow the manufacturer's installation instructions. Your diagram appears to do that. It is similar to Figure 3.4 in the Pinnacle I&O manual.
You don't need the little air vent on the elbow at the top of the primary loop.
Don't forget all the valves, drains and unions.
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P/S piping
thanks for your reply, Xiph.
The reason I was putting the air vent on the elbow on primary, is because this will be the highest point of my system. What do you think ? Do I need it ?
The reason I was putting the air vent on the elbow on primary, is because this will be the highest point of my system. What do you think ? Do I need it ?
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With that pipe being the highest point of the system an air scoop and vent wouldn't hurt.
Placing the vent on an elbow most likely won't do much. The water flow rate will be high and not allow the air (or most of the air) to flow up into the vent body.
Al.
Placing the vent on an elbow most likely won't do much. The water flow rate will be high and not allow the air (or most of the air) to flow up into the vent body.
Al.
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0ne Year Later
It's been a little over a year now........And I move my boiler to another wall and plumbed it P/S with close spaced tees. Like the prev picture I posted.
I had my boiler shut down for 72 hrs. with no heat in the house. Good thing for warm weather, warm for northern MN.
The house only got down to 62*f. The slab holds it heat quite well.
Why is it I cant get the boiler to heat the water over 120* ?
It took 5 hrs to get it to 120*. I thought with the P/S piping that the water tempature would rise to what ever I set the aquastat to.
Thanks, Buzz
I had my boiler shut down for 72 hrs. with no heat in the house. Good thing for warm weather, warm for northern MN.
The house only got down to 62*f. The slab holds it heat quite well.
Why is it I cant get the boiler to heat the water over 120* ?
It took 5 hrs to get it to 120*. I thought with the P/S piping that the water tempature would rise to what ever I set the aquastat to.
Thanks, Buzz
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Still have questions.
water still not getting as hot as I would like it to get.
On boiler loop I have a taco 3-speed 00R set on number 1 the slowest setting. On the #1 setting I got the hottest water.
On secondary I have the Grundfos UP26-99 pumping into the three manifolds. With no zone valves.
Do you people think the 26-99 is the problem ?
Maybe moving the water to fast through the system ?
To much different flow through close spaced tees ?
Or is it to much with all three manifolds flowing at one time ?
I want to set it up like my picture I posted on bucket. With 3 00R's one for each manifold, but havnt done that yet.
What you guys think ?
Thanks, Buzz
water still not getting as hot as I would like it to get.
On boiler loop I have a taco 3-speed 00R set on number 1 the slowest setting. On the #1 setting I got the hottest water.
On secondary I have the Grundfos UP26-99 pumping into the three manifolds. With no zone valves.
Do you people think the 26-99 is the problem ?
Maybe moving the water to fast through the system ?
To much different flow through close spaced tees ?
Or is it to much with all three manifolds flowing at one time ?
I want to set it up like my picture I posted on bucket. With 3 00R's one for each manifold, but havnt done that yet.
What you guys think ?
Thanks, Buzz