conversion from oil to gas


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Old 10-23-10, 07:07 AM
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Question conversion from oil to gas

I am exploring converting from oil to natural gas.

I have old steam radiators. I am told this restricts the furnace I can get and I cannot get the highest efficiency models (I see some above 90%). It would be way too costly to change heating systems.

I was told my model oil furnace is not supportable should anything really go wrong. I have Weil-McLain, model on furnace body is QB180. It is 11 years old.

I received a proposal that would give me a gas furnace to replace the oil furnace without also replacing the boiler (saving me money for the near term, assuming the 11 year old boiler has another 10 years).

Question is: The oil furnace is rated at 86% efficiency by my service company and I am told that is the best I can get for steam radiators. The problem is that the best gas furnace I can get, in this situation, is under 85% efficiency - which means it will not qualify for clean energy state rebate money if I buy it (which I believe requires 85% or greater).

Do you know of any gas furnace brand that is 85% or greater to qualify?

Any other thoughts on what I am looking to do? Advice is welcome!
 
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Old 10-23-10, 07:41 AM
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Steam Boilers

As far as I know, there are no gas fired steamers which will qualify for energy rebates. The only oil fired I know of which may qualify is the Burnham Megasteam. U.S. Boiler::MegaSteam, High Efficiency Oil-fired Steam Boiler

BTW: Whomever told you parts were not available for your boiler is feeding you a line of crap. That number you listed (QB 180) is for the burner only, not the boiler.
 
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Old 10-23-10, 07:54 AM
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The guy was talking about the furnace I'm pretty sure, being unsupportable should there be a significant problem.
 
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Old 10-23-10, 08:10 AM
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Model Number

Please get & post the model number found on a data plate on the boiler itself, not on the burner. I'll check on parts availability.
 
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Old 10-23-10, 08:15 AM
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Semantics - definitions ?

Netmouse...

When you say 'FURNACE' do you actually mean 'BURNER' ?

The BURNER is the part that makes the fire.

We generally refer to a WATER based system as a BOILER, whether steam, or hot water.

A FURNACE is generally used to describe a HOT AIR based system.

Just so's we're all on the same page.
 
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Old 10-23-10, 08:35 AM
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Sorry for my terminology. I mean burner.

The boiler is Weil-McLain Gold Series 3 Model P-SGO-4 With tankless heater for domestic water.

I also looked at the glass water gauge and it looks like it has over filled with water again (other post). I just put in a call to the service to look at it. Rats. Rats. Rats.

I bought this 11 years ago when the antique room size (I'm sure) boiler had the internal tankless heater for domestic water crack, so water never shut off, and I came home to filthy water flying out of the radiators. It was way to old to get a replacement part.

If this has happened again, my guess is today a replacement tankless heater would be possible. Would there be a better solution - like separation of domestic water from the heating boiler? Or am I just unlucky?
 
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Old 10-23-10, 04:17 PM
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P-sgo-4

Since Weil-Mclain show that boiler on their current website, it would certainly seem to be a current model & thereby "supported". Somebody's trying to get into your wallet.
Find Oil Boilers & Oil Fired Boilers | Weil-McLain

It is easy to tell if the problem is from the domestic side or a malfunctioning feeder. Simply turn off the supply to the feeder. If you don't experience overfilling, the feeder is the problem. If you do, it's the coil. Pretty simple.
 
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Old 04-17-11, 05:32 AM
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Pricing out oil to gas conversion!

I have a large 3 family home currently using a steam radiator system fueled with oil. I want to convert to a natural gas fueled radiator system. The gas company will provide the gas boilers at a discount. The problem I'm having is that all the quotes I've received so far from various plumbers for the installation (Parts and Labor) portion of the conversion have been "WAY TOO PRICEY".

Understandably, they all want to profit from the job! and I freely admit that I am not in any way shape or form qualified to rebut their knowledge! But I'm also not an idiot!

Most of the quotes I've received have averaged about $3,000.00 per unit (Parts and Labor)

That is outrageous! regardless of the going rate for such work.

My question is: In a perfect world, what would be considered a reasonable price per unit (Parts and Labor) for this type of job?

Thank You!!
 
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Old 04-17-11, 06:06 AM
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What year are you living in? $3,000 for a new boiler and the labor to put it in? Sounds more than reasonable to me. I paid $9k for my boiler and indirect tank.
 
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Old 04-17-11, 07:02 AM
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3k isnt too bad. That cant possibly be with the boiler, a boiler that size would cost over 2k alone. if its just for parts and labor without the boiler that is kind of the going rate for something like that. you gotta remember that you are doing a conversion. more than likely gas piping needs to be ran as well as a chimney liner needs to be installed. your probably looking at 1k in parts, so 2k for labor isnt all that bad. if you already had gas, parts and labor would probably be slightly over 2k.
 
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Old 04-17-11, 07:06 AM
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do you have 3 seperate boilers blakk?? if you have 3 seperate boilers and they are charging you 9k for them, thats a little outrageous (if your still buying the boilers, if it includes the boilers, i dont see how its that cheap). where are you located?
 
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Old 04-17-11, 07:10 AM
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I was myself was quoted $3000 to replace the oil burner with a gas burner (without replacing the boiler). The gas company brings the line to the house from the street for free (some permit fee of $17). Chimney liner may be ok, if not that costs (my new liner about 10 years ago cost about $2000). If the boiler is young, this may be a way to go. When the boiler does finally go, all has to be replaced, and I was quoted roughly $10,000 for that. The equipment energy rebates are not much and really no good no matter what you buy.
 
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Old 04-17-11, 07:12 AM
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netmouse,

no steam boiler will qualify for energy credit. you just cant get the same efficiency out of steam as you can with water, you still have to boiler the water. depending on what type of hot water system you have, you can circulate as low as 100 degree water, thats where your higher efficiency comes in with the ability to use condensing boilers. you have a difficult decision to make because your boiler isnt that old and depending on how much the contractor is trying to stick it to you, you might want to stick with oil. yes oil does suck and is more expensive, but im sure they arent giving you a great price for the conversion. what did the proposal come in at?
 
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Old 04-17-11, 07:17 AM
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i sent you a message netmouse
 
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Old 04-17-11, 07:58 AM
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Yes, that is what I heard, I was told because of the steam radiators that no gas burner was efficient enough for any rebates. That killed a conversion for me at this time. And the cost to convert away from steam radiators, gas or oil, would be prohibitive. I said to the gas company rep, why not still offer incentives on equipment as they have a great opportunity with surging oil prices to gain tons of new gas customers that would guarantee them all those sales "forever". He responded they tried something similar a few years back and for whatever reason it did not work out well. My sister in NY and I are now paying over $4.00 for oil unit. It'll get worse. I dislike oil for a lot of other reasons - reasons for no heat calls are oil related (plug in line, gauge got stuck and I ran out of oil, etc.), and I now carry insurance (not really expensive) on tank as it is older but not old enough I understand to replace (indoors and about 22 years). It'll cost about $800 to remove a tank in NJ. If the boiler goes, that may be the time to convert to gas but it probably would cost me more than oil equip. Oil boiler has in tank coil for domestic, and I was told no gas boiler does, so would have to buy separate water tank. And may need some work to get gas set-up conversion. Plus remove oil tank.
 
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Old 04-17-11, 09:01 AM
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Oil boiler has in tank coil for domestic, and I was told no gas boiler does, so would have to buy separate water tank.
That is untrue. Gas boilers have tankless. They are inefficient though. If your converting a gas HWH would be the way to go. If you have high demand a 30 gal indirect is better suited.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 04-18-11, 12:00 PM
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Hi RDSTEAM, I am in Boston Massachusettes
The boilers are being provided by the gas company at a discount. All 3 boilers for roughly $3200. The job is a basic what they call "a pop and drop". I already have gas service to the house right near the boilers. The $3000 price is ONLY for parts and labor. The amount of piping needed can't be that much as I'm keeping most of the existing pipes.
Also, I do need a chimney liner.
 
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Old 04-18-11, 12:03 PM
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Hi RDSTEAM,
There was a type-O in my last reply at the end. I meant to say I DO NOT NEED a chimney liner.
 
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Old 04-18-11, 12:37 PM
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blakk - you are saying you get the boiler (parts and labor) for only $3000? I found this for Mass - rebates up to $1600 are available for heating equipment that meets or exceeds the following Annual Fuel Usage Efficiency (AFUE) ratings:

GasNetworks - Efficiency Programs - Residential
 
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Old 04-18-11, 12:43 PM
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Just a note, I dont think any of those rebates are for steam.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 04-18-11, 02:49 PM
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The boilers are costing $3200 plus an additional $3000 in parts and labor.

$6200 for a 3 boiler install sounds outstanding to me.
 
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Old 04-18-11, 05:48 PM
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Droop's right. $6200 for three boilers, installed, is an absolute steal. It's not at alll unusual to pay that much or more for one. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
 
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Old 04-18-11, 07:32 PM
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$6200 for 3 steam boilers just doesnt sound right. doing one steam boiler, piping it properly, adding good low water cut offs and feeder, installing a vaporstat, checking vents, and insulating is gonna run close to $6200. unless the boilers are basically the same thing and will be a "drop in" install, then maybe, but if your doing 3 from scratch, there is no possible way they will be installed correctly for that price. can you get us some pics of the system now blakk??
 
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Old 04-19-11, 10:02 AM
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Hi netmouse,
I guess I haven't been communicating what I mean well enough.
I have a 3 family house with 3 separate heating units (BOILERS!)
I am getting all 3 boilers for $3,200.00 FROM THE GAS COMPANY. (EACH BOILER IS ROUGHLY $1066.66)

The labor including parts is $3,000.00 FOR EACH BOILER!!!!

THE $3,000 IS FOR LABOR AND PARTS FOR ONLY ONE OF EACH BOILER. SO THE TOTAL FOR PARTS AND LABOR ONLY TO REMOVE OLD AND INSTALL NEW WOULD BE $9,000.00
 
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Old 04-19-11, 10:21 AM
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So $12,200 for everything?

Could I ask what boiler are you getting for $1066.00? Is this the whole boiler or are you keeping the boilers and getting gas burners only?

You info is alittle confusing so if you can clarify clearly.

If you are getting three complete boilers for $3200 I would absolutely install my self. Why pay $9000 for cut, remove, replace, connect. Plus the gas is there already as you stated. If it costs $500 in various fittings that would be alot.

If you cant do yourself get a local guy that will do cheaper. Plus take the permit out yourself.

I think the catch is that they need to install the units for that $1066 per boiler. They are making it up on the labor.

Any gas steam boiler I know are $2500 plus. If you can just get the units you are making a killing. But I do see slant fins, weil mclains, and burnhams in the 38-47K btu range for $1500. Plus free shipping.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 04-19-11, 11:16 AM
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Hi lawrosa,
Thanks for your reply. I think you are the first one to get what I'm saying. Sorry for repeating the same line but I'm trying to reply to everyone who replied to me.

Anyway, the boilers are off of a list from the gas company. Different manufacturers (Peerless,Burnham ETC.) Every plumber I have had
in for an estimate, checked my system and according to the BTU's needed. Picked boilers off the gas company list that totaled around $3,200 (For 3 Boilers)
Also, yes I am replacing the entire units (Boiler and all).
The gas company requires a licensed and insured plumber to sign off on the application before selling me the boilers. They will not sell the boilers just directly to me.
It is my belief that $3,000 (per boiler) in just labor and parts for a pop and drop job is too much! Thanks
 
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Old 04-19-11, 11:37 AM
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It is my belief that $3,000 (per boiler) in just labor and parts for a pop and drop job is too much! Thanks
I agree. I think it is too much, but that is me. Did you shop around for plumbers? As long as they do not need to take the old boilers away it should be fairly cheap. I myself would probably charge $1000 a boiler to cut, remove, replace, connect. Plus a little gas pipe cutting and threading. I would say 1 day to do all the work, one guy. Even 2 or 3 days it would be a big profit.

I would find a plumber to sign off on them somehow, but you never did state the BTU or make/model of the boilers.

And I assume that they measured the sq ft of the radiators to insure the btu ratings are correct. You cant assume the btu is correct on whats installed there.

There is a formula to measure each radiators sq ft to size the boiler correctly. And since you have steam and 3 seperate dwellings, the all cant have the same exact amount of radiation, unless every apartment is identical.



Mike NJ
 
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Old 04-19-11, 04:03 PM
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blakk, you don't need to repeat your answers to each person... once is more than enough!

I've removed all the duplicates...
 
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Old 04-19-11, 06:23 PM
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Thank You very much NJ Trooper!!
I'm a rookie at this blogging thing, and at this site!
Sorry to all.......
 
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Old 04-19-11, 06:29 PM
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No problem! Yer doing fine... just wanted to let ya know, and to save myself some work!
 
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Old 04-19-11, 06:52 PM
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Blakk,
I understand the labor cost now & yes $3K/boiler does sound high.
 
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Old 04-19-11, 07:53 PM
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Grady,
Thanks for understanding, and sorry for my lack of clarity!! I tend to overcook it sometimes and my point gets lost!
 
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Old 04-19-11, 08:26 PM
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Blakk,
Now that I understand, I must appologize for my rather sharp response a few posts ago.
 
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Old 04-19-11, 08:54 PM
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Hi lawrosa,
Thanks again! You've been great!!
Yes they did measure each radiator (L,W,H and # of sections). Of course they didn't give me any details. They just checked the gas companies "Equipment and Pricing" list and quoted me the prices for the boilers. All 3 apartments are basically of the same configuration and have the same number of radiators. I will find out the BTU's for sure but I believe the boilers are BURNHAM "Steam HE Natural Draft Electronic Ignition" (1)140,000 and (2) 175,000? I think?
I'm not sure I will find out and let you know.

Thanks Again......
 
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Old 04-19-11, 09:07 PM
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Grady,
No Problem at all.....Really!! Your apology is appreciated!!

I'm a battery research tech. I'm 42 and I've been taking care of this massive old 3 family (4 bdrms ea. floor) since I was 26. So I've had to do allot of my own upkeep, including plumbing. I do all of the simple plumbing myself but this
is beyond my scope. Especially involving gas!! But I've been around long enough to know when something doesn't smell right....That is why I do all I can like consulting good people like yourself before I make a major decision like this.

Thank You......
 
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Old 04-20-11, 04:07 AM
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So, Grady and all, is the quote estimate in NJ in the right ball park for $5000 for a gas burner only (from oil) for a 2 story house with steam radiators? Gas not yet to the house, but free - permit only - by gas co.? And $10000 for boiler with burner? (Without consideration for a chimney liner.). Can I request a quote that separates parts and labor?
 
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Old 04-20-11, 04:46 AM
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This will help you figure out your EDR: Radiator Sizing Guide
 
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Old 04-20-11, 01:48 PM
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i sent you a private message netmouse. those prices are what some guys are asking but its definately high.
 
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Old 04-20-11, 01:53 PM
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that rad sizing guide is good to know how many btuhs will be displaced but you also need to know how many sq ft of EDR is one of your rads are. There are so many different types of rads and you should really get the book to size each rad correctly.

heatinghelp.com go to the shop and they have E.D.R book for like $30 i think
 
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Old 04-20-11, 03:52 PM
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That site has EDR on it. You need to look at all the pages.
 
 

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