hi folks –

I think this forum is super with real professionals. So I would just like to ask your opinion about this. I got rid of my oil delivery/maintenance company and started doing my own maintenance (thanks to this forum ) about 4 years ago. No problems since. But the company is sending me letters to return to them with a nice offer of some free oil as an enticement. (I know, nothing is free and I’ll wind up paying for that oil somehow.)

But when I started to get involved with doing my own maintenance I couldn’t believe the condition of the electrodes in the burner (pic below). Given that they had been doing the maintenance yearly , doesn’t the condition of those electrodes indicate they were doing a terrible job? The picture was taken a year after their last maintenance tune-up. The new electrodes I put in didn’t look anywhere near that bad after a year. Even after several years? Seems to me something very dishonest was going on there.

Seems to me they didn’t even bother to take care of one of the most basic components? Wouldn’t the nozzle, electrodes, and filters be an absolute minimum? So to me that says they shouldn’t even be considered for one minute?

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

 

Please explain what the problem is

 

hi heatpro. thanks for the response.

Sorry I can be pretty indirect sometimes. I don't really have a problem with my system but I have been weighing the offer my previous oil supplier has given me. But what I'm asking is given the look of those electrodes that were left in the burner would you say no way should someone allow them to maintain their system? In other words, I wrote them off and bad mouth them to people I know in the neighborhood, but I just wanted to ask the experts to see if maybe I'm being too critical?

They had maintained the system at least 3 years in a row so how could the electrodes look that bad? If there is some innocent explanation for that then maybe I would take their new oil/maintenance deal.

thanks again heatpro!

 

Hi Dad, by 'condition', you mean the fact that they aren't 'pointy' ? other than that, in that pic I really don't see anything grossly terrible... and even that isn't 'grossly terrible'...

How much free oil? read the fine print! sign with them and you might just HAVE to buy oil from them... and it might be like a 2 year contract ... or longer... and that contract also includes a service plan?

A few years ago I had occasion to find a new oil delivery company, so I had a sales rep from one oil company come in... and the fine print in their contract immediately turned me off... for the reasons above... and others... but when the @55h0l3 wise-cracked "What kind of wax do you polish your boiler with?" (because my system is spotless, I'm very AR)... I of course had to reply "The same kind that I expect is called out on your contract!, because this is the standard I expect your service people to hold to" ... then I asked him to leave, which he was glad I did I think...

 

thanks a lot Trooper.

Great information once again. Guess I got carried away when I saw how flat they were. Thought I was just running on super luck and they didn't give a [darn] and were hoping to get an emergency service call sometime. (In my declining years I think I'm getting paranoid).

But learned something new here again.

Good idea about the fine print. Can't believe I was even considering the offer without reading it. Time to get out the magnifying glass.

Thanks again!

p.s. (I saw a picture of your system. Wow! The twit was probably jealous.)

 

I'm still in the dark about this. Are you expecting points at the tips? Please elaborate. I'm getting older too and don't always see things that are right in my face.

 

hi again heatpro-

I was in fact expecting points at the tips. I replaced those real flat electrodes pictured in my previous post with a new set, and then after a year examined the new electrodes. The pic after they were in use for a year is below. When I installed them ( brand new) they had real sharp points, you could stick yourself with them. Looks to me like only a little burned off after a year.

So I assumed that it must have had been a very long time since anyone cared about the electrodes – until I checked them. I thought you were supposed to at least file them to a point and set the proper distance between them each time you did maintenance? The flat ones weren’t even close to the proper separation.

So I assumed the maintenance guy, who was coming in yearly, didn’t do squat to them for many years.

But I was probably reading too much into too little.

p.s. ( the guys had a form with items to do with check boxes – including a check box for electrodes. But no one ever checked off any box. You just got the form with the guy’s initials indicating maintenance done.)

 

Not all electrodes have pointed tips, it depends on the burner. Some look just like the ones in the first picture, some like the last picture, some older ones had what looks like a hook at the end. Newer residential burners have electronic ignitors that put out 14-18,000 volts so point or no point makes no difference in light off. Older wire wound style ignition transformers are 10,000 volts but even with them it's not really an issue. Gap and placement are more important for smooth ignition.

 

thanks a lot heatpro for the very good information. I did not know that. Learn something new on this forum all the time. That's why I love coming here. Seems like the real experts gravitate to here.

(almost feel guilty that I should be paying someone for the good information. haha- no,I'm too cheap)

thanks again!

 

More than once I've seen electrodes look worse that that after less than a year. One of the best things I've seen to preserve the tips is interupted ignition which shuts off the ignition once the presents of flame is proven. Case in point is Riello who only keeps their ignition on for less than a second. In 20+ years I've never seen a set of worn Riello electrodes.

 

Hi Grady. Thanks for your response.

I do now remember you making the point in the past about the interrupted ignition. I can remember thinking then that it really sounded like a great step up from what I have. That Riello sounds pretty good. I have the Beckett AFG. Don’t know how long this burner will last – but I guess I’ll have to upgrade one of these days and I’d definitely look into the Riello.

(Isn’t pre-purge and post-purge a function of the burner? Mine is so old I don’t think I have those functions? But I’m not clear on what they really are!)

 

Prepurge and postpurge are functions of the primary control, also called the flame safeguard control. Prepurge is where the blower runs for a set period of time before the ignition transformer and fuel valve is energized and postpurge is where the blower continues to run for a set time after the fuel valve is de-energized.

In commercial and industrial service pre and post purge is always used. With the residential service the prepurge is to allow the blower and fuel pump to get up to speed (and pressure) before allowing fuel into the combustion chamber and in the commercial/industrial service it is to blow any combustible gases remaining in the combustion chamber out the stack to minimize the possibility of a furnace explosion. Some large boilers will have a prepurge several minutes long. The postpurge is to be sure that all fuel is burnt before the blower stops.

 

thanks a lot for your response furd. Think it's becoming clearer now.

Starting to understand a little bit how burners work. Looks like Beckett has a control "Genisys 7505" that replaces a lot of earlier controls. If I understand what I'm reading (a big if) pre and post purge are options with the 7505 and the interrupted ignition that Grady pointed out is also an option with the Genisys 7505. Although they don't say how long the ignition is on. And as Grady points out the Riello is less than a second.

Don't know what control I have (have to go down in the basement and look later, I'm too damn cold now). But seems like that makes sense, you don't have to buy a whole new burner to get more upgraded sophisticated operation (if that's the right term).

Just bit the bullet and went down the basement. My control is the Honeywell 4184. So I think the Genisys 7505 would replace it.

Anyway that's neither here nor there. Think I understand better now and the primary control is the key.

thanks guys!

 

Dad, there's a couple more 'side' advantages to the 'valve open', 'motor off' delays ... ( 'valve open' is a better name for 'pre-purge', and 'motor off' is a better name for 'post-purge')

The blower starting up first and stabilizing at speed in addition to the points that Furd gave will also help to get a draft going in the chimney before ignition. On the backside, the motor off delay also serves to cool the nozzle which can prevent 'after-drip' from heat soak, and also expels any flue gases remaining in the chamber and heat exchanger.

The R7184U primary is also a good choice, basically, more or less the same features as the Genisys... be aware though that you may have to make some WIRING CHANGES. It won't be a 'plug and play' replacement. In order for some of the features to work properly, the control must have a source of 120VAC FULL TIME to power the control. Make sure that you take a look at the install sheet before deciding to do this...

[edit: I thought the Genisys control also required the HOT 120 wire to the control, but in the wiring diagram for the control, I don't see that hot wire... and now I need to look further, because without that hot wire, how is the motor going to continue to run after the aquastat tells the burner to shut down? There may be something missing from this brochure I'm looking at.]

[edit2: Yes, there is something missing from that brochure... I just found the full install sheet. If you do NOT wire the 120 HOT line directly to the control, you can still use it, but you will NOT have the 'motor off' delay available, only the 'valve open' delay.]

ALSO... in order to use this control, you need an OIL VALVE. You can do one of two things... either replace the FUEL PUMP with one that has an internal oil valve, or add an external oil valve to the nozzle line. This valve will be powered by the new primary control.

One other 'trick' that I'd like to mention... I've found it very helpful to install what I call a 'mud ring' on top of the 4" junction box on the burner that the control will mount on. This 'mud ring' is very basically an 'extension' box. It's a 4" junction box with the back cut out. Installs right on top of the existing. By using this, you have LOTS more room in the box for wiring. Makes the job so much easier!

 

One more detail... the Beckett control requires the use of an additional 'programming display' in order to change the default delay times if you wish to do that... and you may... and that will cost at least $40 more. The 7184U is programmed by 'dip' switches.

 

Aw heck, might as well go for the best and get a Honeywell RM7800. It has adjustable prepurge via separate plug-in timer modules, several different flame amplifiers to use lead sulfide, cadmium sulfide or ultraviolet flame scanners (including dynamic self-check) selectable 10 or 15 second trial for ignition (of a separate gas pilot) and selectable trial for main flame ignition, low fire start, modulating control, pre-ignition interlock (proof of closure switches on fuel valves) several interlocks including draft loss, fuel pressure and temperatures, low water cut offs and a 15 second post purge. Also has a neato two-line vacuum fluorescent display that counts down the purge times and ignition trials along with totalizing run time and number of starts. Extensive self-diagnostics and can be connected with a remote reset and remote display module or even to a computer network. Whole thing will probably set you back something like 1200-1500 bucks but I guarantee all your friends will be jealous.

 

For that kind of money I would want it to have the martini's ready when I got home from work, fetch my slippers, and cook dinner too!

 

The Genisys is a bit more flexible & the programer offers features such as being able to read a history of burner cycles but the display is by no means a replacement for good troubleshooting & in fact can lead you astray.
Maybe once I start encountering more Genisys controls in the field I'll gain more confidence in them but for now I prefer the R7184.

 

I came across ‘valve open’ and ‘motor off’ in some of the documentation I have. Confused me because it sounded an awful lot like pre-purge and post-purge? They talked about replacing a control handling "valve open" with a control with "pre-purge'. Sounded like the same thing to me? Now I know. Thanks.

Gotcha Trooper!

I’m going to look at the manual for the R7184U.

Gotcha Trooper! I certainly would not have picked that up. I’m going to study the install sheet in detail. No matter what I do that will be a good learning experience.

I did not pick that up. Thanks. I do remember being confused before when reading about a primary control handling an oil valve. Was scratching my head wondering where my oil valve was? Looked all over my fuel pump documentation before I figured out not all fuel pumps have them.

That is a super idea. I know exactly what you mean.


Thanks much Trooper for all!
 

 

dip switches are fine with me. They are easy to do!

I suspect that maybe I might not want that one Furd (haha). But I’d like to look at the manual for a good learning experience! Thanks

Grady I know exactly what you mean. I think sometimes diagnostic messages are poorly thought through. I’ll be looking at the R7184. Thanks for your response!

 

hi guys -

Don't want to beat this thread to death, but I found this link which looks like it covers all the points you were making about the R7184. Seems like a really good training page even complete with audio. So I just thought I'd post it.

R.W. Beckett R7184


thanks for the help!

 

That must be an older slide presentation. I caught one change to the newer versions of the 7184. Now when resetting from a restricted lockout the light will blink only once. The original 7184 controls blinked twice when resetting from restricted lockout. If you wait for that second blink, you'll be waiting a while.
Overall a very good presentation.