Weil Mcclain Installation question

Just had a weil mcclain ultra 80 installed in my house with a 40g indirect water heater and had a question about the installation. The unit is in my basement and they ran the exhaust outlet pipe through my brick foundation to the outside but they didnt run the inlet pipe to the outside. Did they have any reason to do this or was it just laziness? I thought it was more efficient to use outside air and I also thought it was a bad idea to take inside air because it will be sucking outside air in through the "holes" in my house. Any advice would be appreciated.

 

Is this oil- or gas-fired? Was your previous boiler provided with an outside source of combustion air?

There are codes that apply, such as NFPA 54 (National Fuel Gas Code). If the indoor volume, cu in, communicating with the boiler air inlet exceeds a certain factor per 1000 Btu/hr heat input, no outside combution air input is required - normal infiltration is OK. It's a little more complicated than that, but as it boils down, many if not most residential boilers are not required to have a separate outside combustion air source. If there is any doubt, you should run the calculations prescribed in the applicable code.

 

The installers should have read the install manual and followed the manufacturers instructions, rather than using the manual as a kneepad to keep their jeans clean.

From the manual (which the installers should have left for you)

 

It's gas fired. I replaced a 40y/o? cast iron boiler.

The hot water heater is running well, but its produce scalding-hot water, even at a low setting. Here is a picture of the install in case anyone sees a problem.

 

Heres a second picture.

 

Any comments or concerns? I'd like to call back the company tomorrow to ask them about the air intake.

I also turned the water heater control to the lowest it will go and the water is super hot even when half mixed with cold water. Are there supposed to be sensors on the water pipes because I dont see any?

 

I'm not personally familiar with Weil Mclain settings for their boilers or water heaters, but you shouldn't be getting water that hot if you don't want it. There should be a setting somewhere, probably on the tank, that determines how hot the water in the tank is to be kept. A setting of 130 degrees should do the job. You would set the temperature higher if you were running out of hot water. If you needed to do that, you would install a thermostatic mixing valve to prevent burns. That valve takes cold water and mixes it with the hot water coming out of the hot water tank to your desired temperture. I will see if I can find some more specific information in their manuals online.

 

I found the manual and see that there is a knob for the thermostat on the hot water heater. It doesn't indicate specific temperatures. When you turn the knob down to low, you will have to wait for the heat from the tank to dissipate before it's to your desired temperature. The fastest way is to run the hot water. If the boiler turns on to heat the hot water tank, then you know the tank has cooled off. I would do that and work your way up until you find the temperature you want.

 

1) If the boiler is in the basement I would not worry about the air intake. I am going by the pics. This is within code.

2) If you are getting scalding hot water then there are several things I would think are happening..

a. The zone valve or control is not closing for your domestic hot water and you are getting full boiler temp at 180F from the boiler cycle. ( The zone for the DHW sould close at what the have the dial set for on the DHW tank)
b. The temperture control is faulty at the DHW tank. ( Its new and not likely but could be)
C. If you have a control board for several zones plus the DHW the istallerer probably wired it incorrectly.

Thanks

Mike

25 yrs plumbing and heating

 

Hi Mike, maybe within code... but definitely NOT within the way that the manufacturer wants their systems installed. The install manuals are NOT kneepads. Codes are MINIMUMS, and in many cases barely adequate. There is no reason NOT to follow what the manufacturer of the equipment INSISTS must be done for their equipment installs.

 

I would hardley argue with you because I am new here, I am just going from my experience.

1) Please show me where the manufacturer insists the air intake must be piped to outside.
2) Code is code and the homeowners have enough problems.
3) Yes some installers use knee pads some dont. ( Thats why we have codes and inspections)

Yes all is true but as a plumber I would install the same way here in nj as to the intake. Even with that said there are things in the pic that upset me. The expansion tank in the ceiling is original, and no new air seperator. Plus it looks a mess. The install manual say not much about outside air but about pipeing for contaminated air. I may be wrong.
Plumbing means plumb in my book.

But the question is about scalding water and thats what I am trying to help them with. Above all this installation should of had a permit and been inspected.... Period..... Lets help them with their question...

Mike

25 yrs plumbing

 

Thanks for not arguing, I don't like arguing!

Excerpt from the manual in previous post in this thread.

Yes it is... but still a MINIMUM REQUIREMENT, there is no reason that most codes can't be improved upon. I believe in CODE PLUS. A homeowner would have much more problems if an appliance was not installed according to manufacturers instructions, and there were a WARRANTY issue. Manf rep comes out and sees it's not installed to spec, there goes the warranty.

I want the installers that DON'T use the manufacturers installation instructions as kneepads.

I agree... but don't forget that it was the FIRST question that was raised by Ringo, the original poster. Should we ignore this? The SECOND question was about the hot water.

We're working on it...

 

OK fair enough. Lets see what the original poster has done so far if anything.

 

You know after reviewing the pics again I dont see zonevalves but two circulators and I dont see no flow controls.

Mike NJ

 

The pumps might have integral flow checks in them...

 

Flowchecks on a black OEM Taco 007? Highly unlikely. The Red B&G? Ditto.

About the only thing I don't have a problem with on this install is the (re)use of the steel compression tank. Fine, reuse it. But there's also an air sep that shouldn't be there (looks like a leftover from the previous system), the piping layout stinks, the intake air is absolutely not following manufacturer instructions as well as doing a disservice to building infiltration (and depending on size of basement may not meet combustion air code at high fire), the wiring is a mess, plus a couple other things I probably forgot. And it's clear the apprentice did the sweating -- yuck! Possibly the only thing I like is the shutoff flanges on the circs.

Would be interested to see what the MCBA settings are. Factory, at best, but I'd almost bet that the thing is set to go immediately to high fire all the time. No "no heat" callbacks on this job! And no efficiency, either.

And also bet that if there's a condensate drain, that it goes totally unbuffered into a cast iron floor drain. Bye bye floor drain. (But if it's always on high-fire, then it won't condense anyway....)

 

Ok here's an update/summary:

I have turned the dial on the hot water heater all the way down. Although it helped, I'm still gettin scalding hot water out of the faucet. Is it possible there are no flow checks? I don't see anything on the line between the boiler and the hot water heater.

My house is small and both floors are on one zone. The boiler seems to be modulating from what I can see on the control screen and from the varying amounts of air exhaust being put out.

We also got an energy star thermostat with the system. Its on a schedule throughout the day, but when it's time to heat up to 70 degrees F. It never seems to get there. The system seems to be in a constant state of "in recovery" and the boiler is only running enough to keep the temp around 65 degrees, but it's certainly not running at full capacity.

I haven't called the installation company yet because I want to know what issues I should bring up. Ive also only paid for half the cost and I'm not ready to pay in full until they work out the kinks.

 

I would not pay them a dime and I would ask for all labor costs back. I would pay for the products but would hire someone else ASAP. That unit is my cost 1300 boiler 700 HWH Lets say 2000.

Mike NJ

 

While I agree with Mike in principle, don't go getting all in their grille right away... try some diplomacy first.

 

Don't expect the installers to understand how the boiler works... they only need to get it installed correctly. It's going to be kinda up to you to get the settings on the controller correct... that's the thing about these new-fangled turbocharged fuel-injected doo-dads ... they do require 'tweaking' and finessing after the install...

 

I'm more in Trooper's camp than lawrosa's. You have a boiler. It's installed. It's mostly working. It's not the worst install ever. It's not the best.

Some things to do:

1) get the install manual. I'm looking at this one:
http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multim...ler-manual.pdf

2) trace out your piping to see if it actually follows the "alternate - piping to closed-type expansion tank" on page 16. My tired eyes can't really see through the haze of these photos.

Some things to pursue with the installer below. Item 1 should not cost you a dime. No way, no how. Item 2, maybe. There's lots of ways to pipe a boiler, but in general it should work right. Be forewarned that your installer did not follow a few standard piping practices. It's not against code or necessarily against manufacturer instructions, but in some situations poor piping leads to poor performance and problems. Item 3 is something that could have been presented as an option. It will take about $100-150 in parts and a couple hours labor. If this guy regains your trust in standing up to take care of 1 and 2, then maybe entrust him to do 3. Item 4 is also non-negotiable. He needs to do this.

1) absolutely, positively require that he pipe the intake air to outside. This is required by the manufacturer and IMHO totally non-negotiable. Two ways to do that:
a) run a totally separate pipe outside, that is clear of the exhaust vent by the required distance (12"); or
b) have him get a concentric vent kit and splice into the exhaust PVC in the basement following the directions on pages 36-38.

If there are any issues with how the boiler is piped that affect heating and domestic hot water, have those fixed. The piping diagram should help. You can also see more graphically how the piping should look by referring to the Ultra "easy up" manifold:

http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multim...p-manifold.pdf

3) have him install an anti-scald tempering valve on the domestic output of the indirect. One option is this:
http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/Fil...00-6.0_REV.pdf

4) make sure there is a working condensate removal system, AND that it includes a neutralizer so that the condensate doesn't trash your household septic.


If you have more questions and/or can supply better pics, fire away.

As to the thermostat and reset curve settings on the boiler, the installer probably won't be much help. There's a fair amount of info on this forum regarding this. Search around.

In general, modcon boilers like the Ultra with a well-adjusted reset curve benefit from little or no setback. Their efficiency comes from lower modulation and lower water temperatures, not reducing space temperature. So first try losing the setback and going with a constant temp 24/7. See how it does.

 

We are still having the issue with the boiler not getting above 65 degrees in 25 degree weather and Im still confused on this issue. I dont believe it to be the thermostat.

I watched the boiler for awhile last night and it seems to be reaching its target temperature (190) and staying between 185-190 consistently. The baseboards are not putting out nearly as much heat as my last boiler though at this temperature.

As I watched yesterday, the settings were as follows:
Target: 190
Supply: 185-190
Return: 182-187
Outdoor: None
Demand: DHW FTB
Pumps: 2 3
AddL Heat Demand: OFF
- This was for status FIN BASE2

When the status changed to Domestic, which it often did (and I wasnt using the HWH) the settings changed to:

Supply: 193
Pumps: 1 0

Here is also the layout of the water pipes for my system. It doesnt seem to be exactly like the Manual (p16) shows it to be.

 

Look at figure 17 on page 19. Note the flow check on the indirect loop. Do you have one? Also note on your diagram the locations of any other other valves and checks.

It is possible that the absence of a flowcheck on the indirect loop is shortcircuiting the flow.

 

There is definitely something wrong. Your return temperature should be 20 degrees different from your supply.

 

I think I'm down with the WH short-circuiting the flow to the system... you want flow checks on BOTH circuits... When the space heating is calling, you don't want flow through the indirect, and vice versa... this may be the 'biggest' fault with the installation, aside from the fact they didn't vent the intake air from the outside, and the lack of flow checks certainly would explain the scalding hot water!

 

Ok so I double checked and I believe there is two flow check valves. One near the HWH on the return line between the circulator pump and the HWH. And a second just after the Taco cartridge circulator before the junction. Also, in my diagram, the perpendicular line through the "pipe" indicates a ball-valve manual shutoff.

I feel like the problem is definitely circulation. I was bleeding the line today and althought there wasnt any noticeable air bubbles in the line, I discovered another thing. As I took water out of the system and the lines flowed, the water began to get hotter and hotter and eventually all the heaters in the house started putting out noticeable amounts of heat (they were actually hot to the touch). After a few minutes, I checked out the boiler settings and the return temperature was 172. About 30 minutes later the supply temperature and the return temperature were in the upper 180's again but the baseboards were luke warm at best. I cant see any configuration problems but it seems to me like the system is not flowing.

Here is what I'm assuming a check valve is: (the part on the right)

 

It seems like you really want to fix this. I would do things different as far as the installer goes but I spent some time looking this over and will try to help you. Hopefully NJ Trooper will add to this and chime in. He is smart.

I see your drawing and the supply and return seem mixed up. The supply is on the right on the ultra the return on the left. Could you look at the circulators and repost your drawing with arrows showing which way they are flowing?

Of course as stated before your type expansion tank dictates that you should not have any air bleeders. Possible you need to remove air bleeders and drain the expansion tank.

Also what is the pressure reading at the boiler?

The other thing is the extra booster pump you have. Maybye they are pushing towards each other. That is really your zone circ and the boiler circ is just used for the boiler loop.

I feel that something is wrong with the circs in thier direction in relation to your supply and return. It does look like the circs are on the suppy side from you boiler pics. Possible you can take several mor pics of more controns and stuff.

Hopefully this is a start. I dont know everything but I hope this helps to get the other more skilled minds on here thinking.

Mike NJ

 

Would you say the installation should mirror the installation in Figure 17 on page 19, because I see the following differences:

1. The low water shut off is on the return line and not the supply.
2. The HWH check valve is on the wrong side of the circulator pump.
3. The circulator pump for the supply line is on the wrong side of the expansion tank.
4. The boiler check valve is on the return line and not the supply line.
5. There are no system supply/return sensors at all.

- The boiler pressure is around 15psi.

 

Basically, yes it should look like that. While there are several ways to pipe a modcon boiler, the relationship of the components to each other should follow manufacturer instructions. Getting a modcon install right is not hard. Follow the instructions. Getting it wrong creates problems and leads to poor performance.

If you have no supply, return, or outdoor sensors (Outdoor: None), then this thing is not properly set up. Nice boiler, poor installation.

Not sure if that thing in the picture is a flowcheck or not. Maybe someone else can ID.

As lawrosa mentioned, it would be useful to update your diagram with arrows on the circs and location of other components.

You may want to begin considering ditching this guy.

 

First things First I would say carefully look at figure 17. Then take more pics of your install. Please show which way the circs are poing in regards to flow.

It looks like your circs are on the supply side and they should be on the return. Your drawing may be wrong. That boiler has the supply on the right and return on the left. Look at the arrows in figure 17 and you will see which way flow goes.

This might be the majority of your main issues. But we need more info and pics.

Mike NJ

 

Front of boiler showing start of supply and return lines

a. Low water cut off installed on return line instead of supply line
b. Relief valve installed on return line instead of supply line.

Heading left. You can see the return line and black taco circulator as well as the junction for the supply and return lines.


Zoomed out view. Below the junction a red Bell Booster Pump. Above the junction a ball valve, faucet then the line heads out to to the house.

a. Installation manual shows the secondary circ pump should be beyond the expansion tank.

Air scoop and expansion tank. Also showing both lines heading to the house.


Return line again showing tee towards DHW tank. Showing red Bell Circulator Pump.


View from DHW side. Flow check valve before heading into tank.

a. Installation manual shows flow check valve on boiler side of circ pump.

Zoomed out view of previous spot. Showing supply line tee into DHW

a. No faucet for DHW tank drainage

Heres a better diagram. I cant say which way the zone loop circs. Everything is so backwards.

 

Wow crazy. Could you just look an each circ and on the body somewhere there is an arrow to show which way the pumps are pumping. Also the flow checks are just spring checks. But they should have an arrow. Please post this. Others here might help you faster. I need to draw this on paper myself to make sense of this then compare it to how the manufacture prefers.

 

With arrows.

 

Knuckleheaded is a good way to describe this. Charitably.

The differences between your diagram and what the manufacturer specifies are pretty obvious. Seems like you have a decent handle on this.

Also add to your list:

1a) pressure relief valve is not installed with a pipe to within 6" of floor as required by code. Fortunately, all your issues do not (as yet) result in a pressure problem. If that relief were to go off, it would trash the boiler and everything near it.

1b) pressure relief valve installation is very specific in the manual, page 14: "Pipe the relief valve only as shown, in the location shown."

2) LWCO is not installed per manufacturer instructions. See p. 14 "install in a tee in the supply piping above boiler." In addition to being in the wrong place, it probably shouldn't be installed in horizontal piping, either.

What model numbers are the pumps? The black one should be a 007. What are the two B&Gs?

The piping layout is also terrible in general, beyond all the departures from what manufacturer specifies. For example, one generally wants 6-8 pipe diameters of straight pipe on both the inlet and outlet side of a circulator. The elbows next to the lower B&G and the black 007 are cases in point.

And what's with that green wire on the elbow near the air scoop? Is that supposed to be a piping support? What a joke.

Get away from this guy and either find someone to inherit this problem or do it yourself. If you do go the latter, copy the easy-up manifold design and follow the instructions.

What kind of sewer pipe does the condensate pump run into? Plastic? Cast iron? Where?

 

You should also verify that the pumps are wired correctly to the control. See pages 54-57 of the manual. The default is pump 1 as DHW.

 

Try turning the booster pump around. I think this will help in getting heat to your baseboard until you can get this repiped properly. Looks like the return is just looping. If you turn the so called booster pump around at least it will pull the water through the baseboard from the supply. Isolate what you can so you dont get alot of air in the line.

Mike
NJ

 

I'm pretty sure doing that would make things worse. Don't have my reference book handy, but IIRC you want to pump away from the boiler loop supply. Right now it's pumping away from the boiler loop return, which I agree is bad. But turning around the booster pump may make bad things worse.

 

But at least the pump will pull around the loop from the supply. Right now two pumps are pulling from the supply and the boiler pump will win and the water is just looping from supply to return. Thats why in one post the boiler is in a state of recovery and cant get his room past 65 degrees. Just my thoughts. At least they will get through the winter until they can repipe in the summer. Its easy to turn a circ.

NJ trooper do you have a coment on this?????????????????????????




Mike NJ

 

Alright then, flip it and give it a shot. At least there are shutoffs on the flanges. Should be easy.

BUT FIRST, make sure the pressure relief valve is piped to within 6" of the floor.

 

I think those ancient Air Scoops may have flow arrow on them... don't know if reversing flow will render it useless or not...

I don't see any zone valves on those two heating loops and didn't read back to see if there are zones or not, but if there are zone valves, they will be backward and that won't work.

The fact that it is so easy to change would make it worth trying.