Need Expert Input On My Choices To Replace My Old Boiler And Hot Water Heater
#1
12-08-10, 04:48 PM
Need Expert Input On My Choices To Replace My Old Boiler And Hot Water Heater
I have a 40 year old Slantfin oil boiler and a 30+ year old stand alone Bock 32E hot water heater that I'm considering replacing due to there age. I've had them serviced and cleaned annually for the thirty years we've been in this house and they have both been outstanding units with virtually no repairs.
I'm currently in the process of talking with and getting estimates and recommendations from three or four heating contractors. My house is a 1,900 sf ranch with one zone for the main floor and one zone for the basement that I only turn on when I go down there to work. Realizing that my current boiler is oversized as most older units are I've done a heat loss study myself. The house is pretty well insulated and has good quality vinyl replacement windows and the heat loss calculates out to just under 60,000 btu's. With my current boiler and Bock DHWH I use about 1,000 gals of fuel oil a year which I don't think is too bad considering I have a ranch with a lot of roof.
Here's what I'm considering for replacements and would like some input from the experts on this board regarding whether I'm on the right track.
I'm considering a Buderus G115WS/3 and a Utica UB4TRA075 (TriFire) boiler.
So far, the installed price from my preferred heating contractor is $5640 for the Buderus and $5560 for the Utica TriFire. This includes two new Taco circulators ( 1 is a variable speed unit for the main floor) all new valving, damper, copper lines to connect to my piping system, etc.
Despite my feeling that Bock oil fired hot water heaters are the best on the market, I'm also considering replacing my current Bock with a Indirect hot water heater which from the archives seems to be highly recommended and the timing would be right since I'm replacing the current boiler. So far, the best installed price, again from my preferred heating contractor, is $1,355 for a Amtrol BoilerMate WH-41Z unit. I've done some research on the internet and found a lot of negative comments and problems with this particular Amtrol BoilerMate and that concerns me.
What I would like is some input on the following:
1. Are the two boilers I'm considering good units?
2. Are the installed prices for the boilers and indirect hot water heater reasonable?
3. Are the current Amtrol BoilerMate WH-41Z's reliable?
4. Should I consider a different brand and model indirect water heater? If so, which ones?
5. I'm I better off spending $400-$500 more and replace my Bock 32E with a new 32E rather than switching to an indirect unit?
I appreciate any input or suggestions.
Thank you.
I'm currently in the process of talking with and getting estimates and recommendations from three or four heating contractors. My house is a 1,900 sf ranch with one zone for the main floor and one zone for the basement that I only turn on when I go down there to work. Realizing that my current boiler is oversized as most older units are I've done a heat loss study myself. The house is pretty well insulated and has good quality vinyl replacement windows and the heat loss calculates out to just under 60,000 btu's. With my current boiler and Bock DHWH I use about 1,000 gals of fuel oil a year which I don't think is too bad considering I have a ranch with a lot of roof.
Here's what I'm considering for replacements and would like some input from the experts on this board regarding whether I'm on the right track.
I'm considering a Buderus G115WS/3 and a Utica UB4TRA075 (TriFire) boiler.
So far, the installed price from my preferred heating contractor is $5640 for the Buderus and $5560 for the Utica TriFire. This includes two new Taco circulators ( 1 is a variable speed unit for the main floor) all new valving, damper, copper lines to connect to my piping system, etc.
Despite my feeling that Bock oil fired hot water heaters are the best on the market, I'm also considering replacing my current Bock with a Indirect hot water heater which from the archives seems to be highly recommended and the timing would be right since I'm replacing the current boiler. So far, the best installed price, again from my preferred heating contractor, is $1,355 for a Amtrol BoilerMate WH-41Z unit. I've done some research on the internet and found a lot of negative comments and problems with this particular Amtrol BoilerMate and that concerns me.
What I would like is some input on the following:
1. Are the two boilers I'm considering good units?
2. Are the installed prices for the boilers and indirect hot water heater reasonable?
3. Are the current Amtrol BoilerMate WH-41Z's reliable?
4. Should I consider a different brand and model indirect water heater? If so, which ones?
5. I'm I better off spending $400-$500 more and replace my Bock 32E with a new 32E rather than switching to an indirect unit?
I appreciate any input or suggestions.
Thank you.
#3
12-10-10, 09:43 AM
I think maybe you got 'lost in the sauce'... busy...
and, you DID say that you wanted expert advice... so that pretty much limits the replies to the egotists who think they are experts... but I'll answer anyway.
1. Either boiler would be fine I am sure... remember that any boiler is only as good as the installation. I don't really have much preference one way or the other, but my personal choice between the two would probably be the Buderus, only because I know more about them, not because it's better... maybe it is, maybe it isn't...
BUT, I would strongly urge taking a good look at the Burnham MPO with IQ controls as a third choice.
2. I would say the price for the boiler install is reasonable, but the price for an Amtrol BM install seems high.
3. Don't know.
4. For the price he's charging for the ABM, I would think you should easily be able to get a stainless steel model for the same coin. SuperStor... etc ...
5. I don't think so. The less combustion units you have to maintain, the better.
6. There is no 6.
and, you DID say that you wanted expert advice... so that pretty much limits the replies to the egotists who think they are experts... but I'll answer anyway.
1. Either boiler would be fine I am sure... remember that any boiler is only as good as the installation. I don't really have much preference one way or the other, but my personal choice between the two would probably be the Buderus, only because I know more about them, not because it's better... maybe it is, maybe it isn't...
BUT, I would strongly urge taking a good look at the Burnham MPO with IQ controls as a third choice.
2. I would say the price for the boiler install is reasonable, but the price for an Amtrol BM install seems high.
3. Don't know.
4. For the price he's charging for the ABM, I would think you should easily be able to get a stainless steel model for the same coin. SuperStor... etc ...
5. I don't think so. The less combustion units you have to maintain, the better.
6. There is no 6.
Last edited by NJT; 12-10-10 at 04:13 PM.
#5
12-11-10, 10:37 AM
Thanks Trooper and xiphias for your comments, I appreciate them.
I will add the Burnham MPO as a third choice and see how the pricing of that works out.
Trooper, I'm a little surprised by your comment that you thought the Amtrol BoilerMate WH-41Z was considerably overpriced? Based on some research I did on the internet the bare unit seems to sell for about $925.00-$950.00. Then you add in isolation flanges, ball valves, copper supply and return lines, a Taco 007 circulator to operate the indirect unit as a separate zone and the other installation work and removal of the old unit and the price quoted of $1,355.00 doesn't seem too bad to me.
It seems to me that the Amtrol BM and new parts to install and set it up are going to cost $1000.00-$1050.00 and adding in $300.00 for labor and removal doesn't strike me as too bad. Am I missing something or are my prices way high?
Thank you for your input and help.
I will add the Burnham MPO as a third choice and see how the pricing of that works out.
Trooper, I'm a little surprised by your comment that you thought the Amtrol BoilerMate WH-41Z was considerably overpriced? Based on some research I did on the internet the bare unit seems to sell for about $925.00-$950.00. Then you add in isolation flanges, ball valves, copper supply and return lines, a Taco 007 circulator to operate the indirect unit as a separate zone and the other installation work and removal of the old unit and the price quoted of $1,355.00 doesn't seem too bad to me.
It seems to me that the Amtrol BM and new parts to install and set it up are going to cost $1000.00-$1050.00 and adding in $300.00 for labor and removal doesn't strike me as too bad. Am I missing something or are my prices way high?
Thank you for your input and help.
#6
12-11-10, 10:44 AM
Hmmmm.... I didn't think the Amtrol's were that pricey. I'm pretty sure that they are glass lined steel... maybe this is a new model ? maybe it's stainless? need input... I'll take a look and see what I can find. I think the SuperStor SSU-45 is like $800-900 or thereabouts...
#7
12-11-10, 10:51 AM
The Classic Series tanks use a seamless plastic liner that will not crack, chip or peel. This polyethylene reservoir is surrounded by high-density urethane insulation and enclosed in a steel outer shell with a durable, appliance-like finish.
Might as well post a link to the PDF file that quote came from:
http://www.amtrol.com/pdf/bmclassicbroch.pdf
#8
12-11-10, 10:55 AM
SuperStor SSU-45 pricing info
#11
12-11-10, 05:48 PM
Because it's plastic. And will be 120-140F all the time. And is not inherently antibacterial like stainless. Yuck.
I'll take chromium coming out of hot stainless any day....
I'll take chromium coming out of hot stainless any day....
#12
12-13-10, 01:29 PM
I think I'm going to pass on the Amtrol and look more closely at the following which all seem like better choices for about the same money:
SuperStor SSU-45
Buderus S120
Triangle Tube Smart 40
Anyone have any experience with the Buderus S120 and Triangle Tube Smart 40?
Thanks for your continuing input.
Dom
SuperStor SSU-45
Buderus S120
Triangle Tube Smart 40
Anyone have any experience with the Buderus S120 and Triangle Tube Smart 40?
Thanks for your continuing input.
Dom
#13
12-16-10, 04:47 PM
At this point, I'm leaning toward installing a Buderus G115WS/3 boiler to replace my old Slant Finn one.
Based on input from the great folks on this forum including in the archives I've decided to replace my existing stand alone Bock 32E oil fired hot water heater with a indirect hot water heater because it just makes the most sense.
My dilemma is whether to go with a stand alone indirect DWH like a SuperStor SSU-45,Triangle Tube Smart 40, Buderus S-120, Buderus ST-150 OR go with a stackable Buderus LT160. The installed price is within $300.00 of one another for any of the above.
Does anyone know of any advantages (other than saving space) or disadvantages with the Buderus stackable indirect hot water heaters?
Would appreciate any input.
Dom
Based on input from the great folks on this forum including in the archives I've decided to replace my existing stand alone Bock 32E oil fired hot water heater with a indirect hot water heater because it just makes the most sense.
My dilemma is whether to go with a stand alone indirect DWH like a SuperStor SSU-45,Triangle Tube Smart 40, Buderus S-120, Buderus ST-150 OR go with a stackable Buderus LT160. The installed price is within $300.00 of one another for any of the above.
Does anyone know of any advantages (other than saving space) or disadvantages with the Buderus stackable indirect hot water heaters?
Would appreciate any input.
Dom
#14
12-16-10, 05:18 PM
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Expert advice is hard to come by, for free. Most of us here are not experts, just amateurs. And, any "experts" you call are often selling something.
Expert: ex = a has been, pert = a spurt under pressure.
Expert: ex = a has been, pert = a spurt under pressure.
#15
12-16-10, 07:35 PM
I don't think I'm too hip on the stackables... the boiler is going to last longer than the water heater in most cases... (maybe with a stainless tank though, not so) ... so if the water heater needs replaced, what then?
#16
12-17-10, 07:34 AM
Thanks Trooper, your point about the boiler lasting longer than the water heater is a good one and is enough for me to lean toward a stand alone indirect. I can only imagine the time, hassle and expense of replacing a stackable DHWH that's under the boiler.
#17
01-28-11, 10:37 AM
I am no expert, but I will throw in my $0.02 for you to ponder.
The best boiler in the world will give poor performance if it isn't installed properly. On the flip side, an entry level boiler can keep you very comfortable with the proper piping and controls. With that said, if you have an experienced Buderus dealer/installer in your area, I would take a close look at "Mr. Blue". Buderus boilers are very well made and efficient, if easy to service. If you decide to go with the Logamatic control, make sure the installer knows how to program it and ask if they keep replacements in stock. I am not saying the Logamatic is prone to failure, but anytime you have proprietary controls it is nice to know who to call if there is a power surge/lightning problem.
One point I haven't seen discussed is the chimney. Depending on the stack temperature of the new boiler and the size/location of your chimney, a stainless steel liner may be required. This Monday it was -20F in my area, and I drove by a house that had a new boiler installed this fall. The top 3' of the exterior block chimney had ice all over it, and the chimney cap was nearly plugged with ice. It gave new meaning to the words "flue condensation".
As for the indirect, I give high marks to Triangle Tube. I have a 19 year old Weil McLain (rebaged TT) indirect that still works beautifully.
-Rob
The best boiler in the world will give poor performance if it isn't installed properly. On the flip side, an entry level boiler can keep you very comfortable with the proper piping and controls. With that said, if you have an experienced Buderus dealer/installer in your area, I would take a close look at "Mr. Blue". Buderus boilers are very well made and efficient, if easy to service. If you decide to go with the Logamatic control, make sure the installer knows how to program it and ask if they keep replacements in stock. I am not saying the Logamatic is prone to failure, but anytime you have proprietary controls it is nice to know who to call if there is a power surge/lightning problem.
One point I haven't seen discussed is the chimney. Depending on the stack temperature of the new boiler and the size/location of your chimney, a stainless steel liner may be required. This Monday it was -20F in my area, and I drove by a house that had a new boiler installed this fall. The top 3' of the exterior block chimney had ice all over it, and the chimney cap was nearly plugged with ice. It gave new meaning to the words "flue condensation".
As for the indirect, I give high marks to Triangle Tube. I have a 19 year old Weil McLain (rebaged TT) indirect that still works beautifully.
-Rob
#20
02-03-11, 06:48 AM
Thanks everyone for your continuing comments...I appreciate them.
After obtaining estimates and recommendations from 5 contractors, I decided to go with a Buderus G115WS/3 boiler and with a Buderus ST150 indirect DWH. They are actually being installed as we speak.
NJ Trooper, thanks for your comments about the stackable Buderus DWH which influenced my decision to not get it. You are right, in all likeliness the boiler will last longer than the water heater and it would be a MAJOR pain in the butt to change it out from under the boiler if they even still made them.
Once the installation is completed, I'll report back.
After obtaining estimates and recommendations from 5 contractors, I decided to go with a Buderus G115WS/3 boiler and with a Buderus ST150 indirect DWH. They are actually being installed as we speak.
NJ Trooper, thanks for your comments about the stackable Buderus DWH which influenced my decision to not get it. You are right, in all likeliness the boiler will last longer than the water heater and it would be a MAJOR pain in the butt to change it out from under the boiler if they even still made them.
Once the installation is completed, I'll report back.
#21
02-03-11, 03:54 PM
I think a good choice. Did you opt for the Logamatic controls?
I consider the stackables only suitable for when there is very limited floor space. If ya got the room, spread it out!
We'd like to see pics of the finished project if yer so inclined to share!
I consider the stackables only suitable for when there is very limited floor space. If ya got the room, spread it out!
We'd like to see pics of the finished project if yer so inclined to share!
#22
02-10-11, 01:31 PM
As promised, I'm reporting back on the installation of my new Boiler and Indirect Hot Water Heater along with a few pictures.
I did not opt for the Logomatic controls because in my case I could not see enough benefit to justify the additional expense. The units are managed by a TACO 3 zone controller that provides for priority of the DHW zone.
As I mentioned in my last reply, I elected to install a Buderus G115WS/3 boiler and a Buderus ST150 Indirect hot water heater. These units replaced a 30+ year old Slant Finn boiler and Bock stand alone hot water heater.
As part of the install, I had a new 330 gal fuel oil tank installed in my basement to the left of the boiler. This tank replaces a 30+ year old 550 gal inground tank. I figured it would be a smart thing to do especially if we decide to sell the house in the future because the inground tank is a point of potential liability and would likely have to be replaced as a condition of sale by the buyer's attorney.
In any case, other than nice new equipment and shiny pipes, the most noticeable difference is how quiet the Riello burner runs. The other difference is the first floor feels a little warmer because the installers suggested putting a separate circulating pump on each heating loop. I have a ranch house with what I guess is called a perimeter heating system with a center return. The old system had a Y coming out of the boiler with one loop following the front of the house and one loop following the back of the house then meeting at the other end into a common return back to the boiler with one circulating pump.
If I did things right I have hopefully attacked a couple of pictures that show in pretty good detail the new installation.
Pictures by coollx - Photobucket
[link is a URL tag, click on link to open album in another window.]
I did not opt for the Logomatic controls because in my case I could not see enough benefit to justify the additional expense. The units are managed by a TACO 3 zone controller that provides for priority of the DHW zone.
As I mentioned in my last reply, I elected to install a Buderus G115WS/3 boiler and a Buderus ST150 Indirect hot water heater. These units replaced a 30+ year old Slant Finn boiler and Bock stand alone hot water heater.
As part of the install, I had a new 330 gal fuel oil tank installed in my basement to the left of the boiler. This tank replaces a 30+ year old 550 gal inground tank. I figured it would be a smart thing to do especially if we decide to sell the house in the future because the inground tank is a point of potential liability and would likely have to be replaced as a condition of sale by the buyer's attorney.
In any case, other than nice new equipment and shiny pipes, the most noticeable difference is how quiet the Riello burner runs. The other difference is the first floor feels a little warmer because the installers suggested putting a separate circulating pump on each heating loop. I have a ranch house with what I guess is called a perimeter heating system with a center return. The old system had a Y coming out of the boiler with one loop following the front of the house and one loop following the back of the house then meeting at the other end into a common return back to the boiler with one circulating pump.
If I did things right I have hopefully attacked a couple of pictures that show in pretty good detail the new installation.
Pictures by coollx - Photobucket
[link is a URL tag, click on link to open album in another window.]
Last edited by NJT; 02-10-11 at 02:53 PM.
#23
02-10-11, 02:58 PM
Or, if you want to use the IMG tag, you need to copy the IMAGE LOCATION and put that in the box...
Looks good! but why are there two pumps labeled " 3 " ... installer short a few fingers?
What are those 3 copper tubes coming out of the wall to the left of the Taco panel? Assume that they are from the old tank? But why THREE? If the tank was removed, why didn't they also remove the lines?
Looks good! but why are there two pumps labeled " 3 " ... installer short a few fingers?
What are those 3 copper tubes coming out of the wall to the left of the Taco panel? Assume that they are from the old tank? But why THREE? If the tank was removed, why didn't they also remove the lines?
#24
02-10-11, 03:04 PM
This tank replaces a 30+ year old 550 gal inground tank. I figured it would be a smart thing to do especially if we decide to sell the house in the future because the inground tank is a point of potential liability
Oil Tank Remediation pictures by JeffPicks - Photobucket
You didn't specifically say that the old tank was REMOVED... was it? And thank the higher powers, it hadn't leaked!
#25
02-10-11, 04:00 PM
NJ Trooper, as I stated in my narrative without knowing the correct terminology, I have what I believe is a perimeter based heating system where the piping at the boiler end of the house splits into two loops; with one going along the back of the house and one going around the front and converging at the other end of the house at a common loop return. The installers suggested putting a separate pump on each half should improve heating characteristics. The original system only had one circulating pump pulling water. Loop "3" represents the main floor. Loop "2" is my basement and loop "1" is the indirect DWH.
Actually, there are four cooper tubes coming out of the wall to the left of the Taco panel. They were coming from the old inground oil tank. Two feeds and two returns. One each for the boiler and the stand alone Bock.
Actually, there are four cooper tubes coming out of the wall to the left of the Taco panel. They were coming from the old inground oil tank. Two feeds and two returns. One each for the boiler and the stand alone Bock.
#26
02-10-11, 04:03 PM
My old tank has not yet been removed. It's my first order of business when the snow melts and it warms up. I have my fingers crossed that removal will go smoothly.
#27
02-10-11, 06:28 PM
OK, I got it now... one pump for each half of the zone... should be no lack of flow with that setup!
Maybe I'm the one who should check MY fingers!
Me too... I don't want anyone to have to go through what we have been going through the past FIVE YEARS (and likely at this point one or two more...)
there are four copper tubes
I have my fingers crossed that removal will go smoothly.
