Riello F3-F5 oil burner leaking

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  #81  
Old 03-20-11, 09:14 PM
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The head adjustment regulates how much air goes thru the slots vs. how much is bypassed. In the most recent photo it looks like the head is set at about 2 or a little more. You will notice the scale goes from 0 to 4. The first mark is 0, not 1 as is commonly thought. 5 marks: 0,1,2,3, & 4

The electrical symbol designates the electrodes are beneath that cover.
 
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Old 03-20-11, 09:46 PM
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Ah, so it's more definitely at 2, and less definitely at 3 as I miscounted-
The higher the number the greater the air through the slots then? Would that tend towards increasing the likelihood of the air pressure sensor tripping and exclaiming "No soup for you" ?

It is looking more like the air pressure is involved in this outage problem, seeing how I can get the fuel solenoid to kick on just by cupping the intake just a bit with my hand. Then after holding it a few seconds, 'click' and I hear the burner firing.
 
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Old 03-21-11, 08:31 AM
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The rellio/oil smell

This is just an asside, someware in the directions in the tiger loop package it says if there is a fuel oil oder, to run a piece of tubing from the air vent to the outside. That would eliminate one source.

To grady; Yes the vacuum would increase if the tank vent was restricted. I didn't think of that. That comes with years of pro expierence.
Sid
 
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Old 03-21-11, 09:00 AM
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The head setting has no influence on the pressure switch unless a maladjustment of the head has led to the boiler being plugged. By placing your hand over the air intake you are creating a richer air/fuel mixture for ignition. It's virtually the same as pulling the choke on a gasoline engine to start it.

This is somewhat of a long shot but worth a shot nonetheless:
Remove the plug in the tee to which the draft switch connects.
Using a phillips screwdriver with a shank 8-12" long push into where the plug was. The screwdriver should go all the way in with little or no resistance. There could be some carbon plugging the hole & thus restricting the draft sensor.
 
  #85  
Old 03-21-11, 01:00 PM
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Wingeer,
I just found my System 2000 manual & the head setting for a .75 nozzle @ 130# should be 2.0 & the air 2.6. Before making any changes to the settings you need to verify the nozzle size, spray angle (60, 70, etc.) & spray pattern (A,B, or W) as well as the pump pressure. System 2000 boilers MUST be set up with combustion test instruments.
 
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Old 03-21-11, 02:39 PM
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I've left the head setting alone, since it seemed to have a fairly narrow range of adjustment and I didn't want to throw it off without having the instruments to properly set it.
I've got a pressure gauge on the way, so I'll be able to get a reading soon, as another data point.

I did see a possible source of the fuel odor as I was looking at things; the bleed screw had visible liquid fuel in the nozzle, and a wipe with a paper towel picked up liquid. It wouldn't be visible with the cover on, so the last service guy wouldn't have seen it. I snugged it up with my socket wrench and it moved in, so it was probably why it would seep under the high pressure as it ran. Hopefully that takes care of the lingering fuel smell. If there's a torque spec for it I can use my torque wrench to tighten it up properly after I take the pressure reading. For now I just used the Gudentite torque value-

I have a Reddy forced air kerosene heater that would need some enrichening to start up when the pump pressure wasn't set properly, but it seems different in this case, because it seems like it's not firing because of the air pressure interlock cutting off all the fuel.
When I restrict the air, it seems that it allows the pressure switch to close, and then I hear the fuel solenoid click in, and it fires immediately upon hearing the click.

From what I could see on the air pressure control, the tube going into the burner is connected to the high side of the two differential air inputs, and the low side is open to atmosphere. The wires are connected to the normally closed contacts, with the normally open contact not used. When the burner's operating normally, I see continuity on these contacts. Naturally, it hasn't failed to fire lately, so I couldn't confirm that the contacts open up during the outage. If it happens, I should be able to tell if this is what's cutting power to the fuel solenoid.

The tee you're referring to in for the draft switch, is this at a point inside the burner housing, or is it the one accessible on those outside tubes (without having to flip open the heavy burner cover)?
It would seem it may actually be getting too much pressure on the tube rather than too little, if that's what causes the control switch to flip states. I was thinking about trying to test it by pulling a bit of vacuum on the open atmospheric port to simulate the other side being too high a pressure, but wasn't sure if I could get a good seal from the hole on the case.
 
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Old 03-21-11, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by sidny View Post
the directions in the tiger loop package it says if there is a fuel oil oder, to run a piece of tubing from the air vent to the outside. That would eliminate one source.
Sid
I was kinda curious how this Tiger loop thing worked, so I took a look at it further; I popped off the black cap and saw the vent on top as Trooper mentioned. Took a nose to it and it doesn't seem to have any smell to it, so it's probably okay. As I mentioned, I'm hoping the seepage I found at the bleeder screw of the pump was the culprit.

Still not exactly sure how the Tiger loop works though, I tapped and rocked it a bit (the installer didn't really secure it properly with the bracket), while it was running, and saw an occasional stream of bubbles in the oil, I guess from the return stream when I shook it. The level seemed to rise up a bit higher now, about an inch vs. 1/2 inch before. Undisturbed, the oil didn't show any bubbles.
 
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Old 03-21-11, 02:50 PM
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The tee to which I was referring is the one in picture 2, post #76 & screwed into the burner jacket directly below the pressure switch.
 
  #89  
Old 03-21-11, 04:04 PM
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I popped off the black cap
I hope curiosity didn't kill the big striped cat! I've never had the cojones to try taking one apart like that, and in fact, manufacturer cautions not to...

(the installer didn't really secure it properly with the bracket)
You will correct this, right? It has to be plumb and level to operate properly.
 
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Old 03-21-11, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Grady View Post
The tee to which I was referring is the one in picture 2, post #76 & screwed into the burner jacket directly below the pressure switch.
Okay, got it- I'll see if I find anything amiss with it. From what I could tell, the switch is closed normally with no outside pressure input, and it opens up when there's pressure to the tube, so if it's clogged I would have thought it would have the opposite effect, of not cutting off fuel when it was supposed to. I'll try to find out if it's clogged up.
 
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Old 03-21-11, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by NJ Trooper View Post
I hope curiosity didn't kill the big striped cat! I've never had the cojones to try taking one apart like that, and in fact, manufacturer cautions not to...

You will correct this, right? It has to be plumb and level to operate properly.
Ignorance was bliss I guess- luckily it wasn't anything too problematic. The black cap is just retained by grooves in the plastic ring in the center; the cap's purpose appears to be just to keep the vent clean and maybe block the possibility of any geysers of fuel in the event something went seriously wrong. There was no fuel at all in the opening, no moving parts that would be affected by removing the cap, just a small air vent in the center. It popped back on with no trouble.

It did seem to me as I was looking at it that the TL should be positioned properly for the float to move up and down freely without getting cocked. I need to get a board to take up the space between the wall and the flat bracket, and I'll be sure to get it all leveled out, thanks- Still wonder exactly how it works though. I was thinking it may be some arrangement where the float rises from the fuel level, and blocks the air vent off, and when the fuel level drops due to the air building up, the air vent opens up, and the incoming fuel is allowed to rise until the float rises again.
Sorta like a reverse operation of a carburetor float, where the float drops to allow more fuel in, and shuts off when it rises to the set level.
The TL looked like it had more pieces to it than that simplistic idea, hard to see even though the bowl's transparent-
 
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Old 03-21-11, 09:51 PM
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Sorta like a reverse operation of a carburetor float
Or more close to a terlet? or like the automatic float type air vents...

BUT, there's also gotta be a check valve, becuz when there is vacuum in the system, what would stop the TL from suckin' air back in?

So, let's say that it's both a ballcock valve, and a check valve.

Then if there is always a vacuum on the thing which would keep the check valve closed, how in heck does it ever pass gas?
 
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Old 03-21-11, 11:29 PM
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Could it be it's generally under pressure rather than vacuum? Since it's used for a simulated two pipe supply system, I picture the return pipe from the fuel oil pump is flowing out at a greater rate than the burner is using. An automotive fuel pump and pressure regulator (if a two pipe system is similar), is flowing much more fuel than the car would ever use, and the regulator maintains the desired fuel pressure by allowing the excess to pass back to the tank.

If this is how the oil burner works with a two pipe system, then it might be able to get positive pressure at times inside the Tigerloop, which could push out the excess air through the vent on the top. Just wild speculation, I'd like to see a disassembled Tigerloop to see how it really works.
 
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Old 03-22-11, 04:49 PM
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Could it be it's generally under pressure rather than vacuum?
I don't think that's possible... if it were, no fuel would ever be drawn from the tank, and the vacuum gauge would never read vacuum... the pipes from the burner only put back what they take out, MINUS the fuel that is burned. The net result will always be a vacuum.

This all makes me wonder how the durn things work at all... how they ever vent? If there's ALWAYS a vacuum in the dome...
 
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Old 03-22-11, 07:50 PM
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Found a picture of the internals of the Tiger Loop,


Apparently the multiple valves in there allow the chamber to fill up from the pressure of the return line, and it's a cycling process which alternates as the float rises and falls. The green thing starts out closed, blocking the path of fuel from the tank except out to the burner. Then when the return fuel is pumped back, because it has excess volume that isn't used by the burner, it fills up the upper chamber, and the float rises, opening up the port and allow recirculation of the return fuel back to the burner to be used.
With the top open to the air, it just gets pushed out as the incoming fuel rises to the equilibrium point.

There's a description of the process in a post I found here-

Still a bit mysterious with all the extra bits shown but it obviously works, so I'm happy enough-
 
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Old 03-22-11, 09:28 PM
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I'm going to come back to this at length later... mind is a bit fuzzy right now...

But, that orange thingy appears to be a check ball valve.

I note that there are actually TWO floats, and TWO chambers... safety redundancy?
It appears that the top chamber should NEVER have fuel in it, and that the upper float is a backup to shut the top valve in the event that the lower float valve doesn't close.

Not sure about the green diaphragm valve...

There's also a 'bypass' valve at the bottom.

Interesting! Thanks for finding that!
 
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Old 03-22-11, 10:09 PM
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Makes sense about the upper float being a backup- it sure wouldn't do to have the thing leak and pump out oil through the vent hole. The 8 PSI max specified on the label may be related to its ability to maintain the seal.

I was checking on the tee fitting that the air pressure sensor is connected to, and it was just barely finger tight- not sure if that might have caused any of the problems I was having. It seemed to be clear and unobstructed when I passed a long wire into the fitting. Some warm air could be felt coming out from it when it was running, very low pressure.
When I disconnected the wire at the pressure sensor contact, the burner immediately stopped firing, with the same delay on startup after reconnecting it, so that seems to be the likely factor causing the shutdown.
I'll have to try to find out if it's a valid interlock shutdown or if it's due to a misadjustment-
 
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Old 03-23-11, 09:29 AM
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Trooper,
The picture in Wingeer's post & the link are for two different brands of fuel de-aerators. The picture is of a Tigerloop & the link is about an Afriso model 3/K-2 Automatic Fuel De-aerator Flow-Control. The "2" designates a dual float model. They also make a 3/K-1 single float more like the Tigerloop you are familiar with. I use the -2 almost exclusively.
 
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Old 03-31-11, 10:34 PM
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Well, I hooked up a pressure gauge to the pump, and saw about 70 psi in the preignition period, and then when the solenoid clicked on, it rose to 130 psi.

As I was watching it during the firing period, it would occasionally show a bit of a twitch for an instant. For the most part it was steady at 130 though.

The issue I'm having is due to the air pressure sensor detecting an overly high pressure, and cutting fuel. It's a very low pressure, so I don't have any way to check if the sensor is correctly reporting the high pressure or if it's maybe out of adjustment.

What is the pressure sensor actually checking? A restricted flue?
 
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Old 04-01-11, 06:01 AM
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The tee to which the pressure sensor is connected goes into the flueway just outside the combustion chamber. The intent of the pressure switch to to shut down the burner in case of a blocked flue or boiler.

I'd start by taking off the vent pipe & having a look into what you can see in the boiler & chimney. If you will post a wider angle picture of the boiler, I can tell you how to access the flueway for cleaning.
 
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Old 04-01-11, 08:26 AM
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Thanks,
I'll get a shot of it and post it up-
 
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Old 04-09-11, 06:38 PM
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Riello burner oil pump leaking

Hello Grady, I have a Riello oil pump leak problem that you helped me with a month or so ago to locate the leak, as you suggested I ordered the F3 replacement pump and as the heating season is coming to an end, I am ready to replace the pump.
I will refresh your memory of my system. I have a single oil line coming from the tank thru the oil filter to the Tiger loop and then two lines from the tiger loop to the oil pump. My question is.... do I insert the by-pass plug that came with the pump in the return line???
The instructions say that if a two line system is used to insert the by pass plug..... but it does not say anything about a tiger loop.....
The instructions say that the pump is shipped for a single line system and damage to the pump seal will occur if the by-pass plug is not used with a two line system. The diagram shows the two line system going all the way back to the tank and not to the tiger loop....
I am a little confused.....can you please help me and please explain the difference. Thanks in advance...
vaflyguy
 
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Old 04-09-11, 08:08 PM
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VAFLYGUY,
Glad to help you out & thanks for refreshing my memory. Yes, you do need to install the by-pass plug. Your Tigerloop is piped as a two pipe system as far as the pump is concerned.
Before changing the pump, be sure to check the pump pressure of the old pump. I believe the new pump comes factory set at either 140 or 145#. Once you determine the pressure of the old pump you will need to set the new one to match. If you need help in how to connect the gauge, please don't hesitate to holler.
 
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Old 04-09-11, 10:44 PM
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Is this picture I found for a Delta similar to the Riello pump in depicting the bypass plug?
This shows the plug not installed (in the stowage location only), for single line operation, and allowing the excess fuel (shown by the blue arrows) to loop back to the inlet fuel path.

So when the bypass plug is installed, it blocks the return fuel from making that left turn, and forces it to go straight, and out to the return port line in the two line setup?

So the warning to not use the bypass plug in a single line installation is because it would result in a dead end for the fuel, with no path for the excess fuel to go out, blowing the pump seals?

 
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Old 04-09-11, 11:30 PM
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This is a shot of the vent pipe out from the boiler to the chimney -

One thing I noticed with the boiler running is that the bottom of the vent pipe where the angle section is, felt cool to the touch- the other areas like the vertical sections and the top part of the angled section were hot. Would that be an indication of build up of deposits?
 
  #106  
Old 04-10-11, 08:24 AM
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The Riello
My guess is heat rises and the flue gasses take the shortest path out, missing the lower part of the elbow. You could always take it apart for a look.
Sid
 
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Old 04-10-11, 10:42 AM
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That's probably a big part of it, I'll take it off and see. I already marked it hoping it'll make it easier to get back in the same spot -
It's just such a big difference in the temperature that I think there must be a massive insulating layer of build up there..
 
  #108  
Old 04-10-11, 11:02 AM
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Maybe... it looks as though there is some debris 'peeking' out from between the seams on the bottom of the elbows.

Try to take steps to not let the stuff fall into the boiler, and wear a filter mask! Ventilate the room to outside if possible... you don't want that junk floating and settling in the room.
 
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Old 04-10-11, 01:13 PM
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Will do- my washer/dryer's in the immediate area, so I'll get everything covered up before digging. Temps supposed to get to the upper 70's soon, so it'll be a good time to go offline for a while.
 
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Old 04-13-11, 06:30 PM
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Hello Grady, Thanks to your professional help, I sucessfully installed the new F3 pump on my Riello burner today. First as you suggested, I measured the old leaky pump pressure and it was 150 psi, I then turned off the power to the burner and the oil supply and carefully removed the old pump and installed the new pump, tighened all the fittings and turned the power and oil supply back on and fired it up, it came on after about fifteen seconds and the pump pressure jumped u to 170 psi and I quickly adjusted it back down to 150 psi, I let it run to bring the temp back up to 170 and then it shut down, I turned up the thermostat to get the hot water to circulate and the burner came back on about 130 degrees and it cycled okay. I checked for leaks and it seems to be doing okay and heating fine. Thanks again and I could not have done it without your help. You are a true professional.
John
Va.
 

Last edited by NJT; 04-13-11 at 07:57 PM.
  #111  
Old 04-13-11, 06:37 PM
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VAFLYGUY,
Something seems amiss. I've never seen a Riello pump set for 170# out of the box. Normally they are 145# (+/- 5#). I'll call Riello tomorrow to see if they've changed the factory setting.
 
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Old 04-21-11, 05:14 PM
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Just wondering, on a burner setup like the System 2000, is it okay to leave the system off for extended periods, if going away for a few days and not needing heat or hot water for a while?

With my old burner, it was inadvisable because the drop from normal operating temperature would cause contraction and the seals would allow water leakage to occur. Is this still a concern with a newer system?

The hot water tank is fairly well insulated, so there's not really too much loss, but it still cycles the burner on regularly to maintain the temperature, which seems a bit of a waste if no one's around to use it.
 
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Old 04-21-11, 07:39 PM
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Since the boiler cools off anyway between calls for either heat or hot water, it won't hurt to shut it off at the switch. Those who use their System 2000's for heat only have their boilers shut down all summer.
 
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Old 04-21-11, 08:30 PM
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thanks- sounds good, that'll save the 0.1 hrs of burner run time per day that's normally used in the summer time just maintaining the temperature with no one home-
 
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Old 06-22-11, 09:15 AM
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I just ordered a digital manometer to see if I can check that the pressure switch is somehow tripping at too low a pressure; it seems to be working okay now, but maybe it's because it's warmer now and goes up the chimney more easily. I was wondering if the switch was marginal somehow and prone to cutting out.
Checked and saw made sure the flue and path out the chimney is pretty clean, so I don't think pressure is building up due to an obstruction.
Do these switches usually tend to be reliable or do they get out of adjustment sometimes?
 
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Old 06-25-11, 07:31 PM
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I've replaced quite a few. Plugging seems to be a bigger problem than anything else unless it is the switch itself.
 
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Old 06-26-11, 01:02 AM
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Good to know- I'm hoping it turns out the switch is just tripping earlier than it should be, and everything else in the system is up to snuff. I made sure all the pathways from the ccombustion chamber out to the chimney are clear, so if it's not the switch, it could be the air shutter setting.
 
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Old 06-26-11, 09:05 AM
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I don't recall the pressure switch setting off the top of my head but since you have a manometer ordered, I suggest testing prior to replacing the switch. I hate to see people throw parts (money) at a problem in hopes the problem goes away. When I replace a part, I want to be as sure as I can the part is bad.
 
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Old 06-26-11, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Grady View Post
I don't recall the pressure switch setting off the top of my head but since you have a manometer ordered, I suggest testing prior to replacing the switch. I hate to see people throw parts (money) at a problem in hopes the problem goes away. When I replace a part, I want to be as sure as I can the part is bad.


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The label shows a setting of 0.07" W.C. I was trying to figure out a Mr. Science method of checking this with the use of an actual water tubing, but didn't think it'd be too easy to discriminate such a low pressure. Found digital manometers could be had fairly cheaply on ebay, so I'll see what it reveals.

I would probably go as far as trying to readjust the one I have before actually replacing the thing. I just wanted to make sure it's not an actual problem where the switch is reporting correctly and shutting down.

The manual shows references to a smoke test, which appears to be a first requirement for checking proper installation; what exactly does this test for, and what kind of instruments are used?
 
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Old 06-26-11, 02:31 PM
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From where did that picture come? I didn't think the pressure was that low.
A draft gauge would be the best instrument to use. Finding a manometer to read that low reliably isn't going to be easy.

A smoke test tells you how cleanly the burner is firing. One needs a smoke pump to do it.
True Spot Smoke Tester Kit, Pump, Scale, Filter Paper | eBay
 
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