Adding/Replacing baseboard/Cast iron


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Old 01-04-11, 02:00 AM
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Adding/Replacing baseboard/Cast iron

I'm replacing my boilers in the future but currently need to add BTU's in a 2 bedroom apt. Calculated heat loss is 50,000Btu's, currently there is 30,600 Btu's of radiation and 20,400 is in both bedrooms!(each bedroom requires 6000btu's) Leaving a measly 10,200 in the Liv/Kit area and bathroom which is in the centre has no heat also.

I was just going to take the Cast Iron rads and relocate them into the Living area from the bedrooms and install base board in the bedrooms (slantfin 90 21" for the ability to add another tier so I can use low temp). But after trying to lift one I think if I can get the manpower to move them I will take the three of them right out.(unfortunately on second floor)

What I would like to do is provide temperature control in each bedroom and the liv\kit and bathroom area. But how to do this with the current boiler? System is a 2 pipe direct return (http://cbs.grundfos.com/export/sites...ipe_system.jpg)

What would I need to do to the piping so that if no area is calling for heat the pump will not be dead heading. (pump runs 24/7 because of some heating line in outside wall is my guess)
 
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Old 01-05-11, 09:17 PM
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No suggestions!

Anybody?

How about this, I install enough radiation in the liv/dine and bathroom to turn the old boiler down to 160 degrees instead of the 180 that I'm currently running. This will also allow me to leave the old cast-iron where it is. But also is a crap shot on heat balance in the apartment.
 
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Old 01-05-11, 09:21 PM
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It's a tough one to get our heads around Grumpy! Without being able to be there to visualize the whole system... I think is making us reluctant to try and answer this...
 
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Old 01-05-11, 09:26 PM
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Im not sure why you want to lower temp???? And I am pretty sure you can mono flo t baseboard like your radiators are now....

Mike NJ
 
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Old 01-05-11, 09:59 PM
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What info would help

Rudd multi-tube 217,000-173,0000
3' 1.25" black pipe from boiler on return and supply
pump is mounted to pump towards boiler: running 24/7
10' of copper on both return and supply that connects to the black pipe
supply and return: t's off in two directions East and West
All heat-load takeoffs are t 1.25" black pipe feeding 3/4" copper: separate return and supply
four end caps on the 1.25" no physical connection other then rads 3/4" return and supply
there is currently a radiation load of about 60,000btuh
9 cast-iron rads 1 fan coil

Bottom floor of the 2 bedroom which contains the 1.25" black pipe
http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/...aykor/bott.png

This image gives an overall of the building but more importantly it shows the 2 bedroom layout

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/...r/heatloss.png

Pictures could be provided, just let me know what I can provide to enable others to help me

Thanks Grumpy_guy
 
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Old 01-05-11, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by lawrosa View Post
Im not sure why you want to lower temp???? And I am pretty sure you can mono flo t baseboard like your radiators are now....

Mike NJ
Lower temp equals savings does it not?

But more importantly is there is a young child in the apartment and the rads are extremely hot.

Pretty sure it is not monoflow as it is a 2 pipe direct design. separate return and supply using 1.25" black pipe and t's to 3/4" copper.
 
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Old 01-05-11, 10:09 PM
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Yes I am looking at the pic. But I thought BB and cast benefits at 190F.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 01-05-11, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by lawrosa View Post
Yes I am looking at the pic. But I thought BB and cast benefits at 190F.

Mike NJ
Mike you may be right, I'm just going with what I read. As for low temps, new boilers run best with; and this is why I'm designing that way. The slatfin 90-21 can carry two rows of radiant fin tube, so currently I would use 1 and when I replace the boiler add another and I can run the boiler at 140 which gives it max efficiency. (that's the game plan but real life may provide a better solution)

190 copper would be really hot, it seems very hot at 180. I would not worry about adults but children ...
 
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Old 01-05-11, 10:26 PM
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Hmm!!! So I could double up my baseboard in my whole house and run my boiler at 140??? Show me the data. I am interested.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 01-06-11, 07:05 AM
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Let's try not to 'drift' the thread away from Grumpy's focus...

Grumpy, google up "Differential Pressure Bypass Valve" and think about adding one of these between the Supply and the Return... then think about using Thermostatic Radiator Valves on the heat emitters. You might not even need 'controls'... the TRV's would handle the space temperature, the diff bypass would prevent the dead-heading of the pump...

Just an initial thought based on what I know so far...
 
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Old 01-06-11, 09:16 AM
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Thanks NJ, I was thinking of the same deal with a little worry of affecting the original design of 2 pipe direct, but after the dentist I will check out the diff bypass.

Lawrosa, here check this btu chart, compare 180-190 degree single row to 2 row fins at 130-140.
http://www.slantfin.com/documents/686.pdf

If I'm wrong please push me in the right direction. Also if you want check efficiency curves of new boilers. If you find any that are condensing that does not need low temp to be efficient please inform me. I have already stated that the efficiency of condensing boilers seemes extremely hard to get in the real world.
 
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Old 01-06-11, 06:19 PM
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Thanks NJ found 2 differential pressure bypass valves (not cheap Eh!) Any preference for Honeywell over Taco? Is there others that may be just as good at a better price? Differential pressure range 0-17 p.s.i. for Honeywell and 7.5 for Taco, does it matter? Can you or somebody offer suggestions for TRV's?

for those who like pictures Small and Large Dragon pictures by kaykor - Photobucket

not labeled or sorted
 

Last edited by grumpy_guy; 01-06-11 at 07:45 PM.
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Old 01-07-11, 05:53 PM
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I can't really offer suggestions as to which is better... I only offered up my thoughts as something to think about... not even sure the suggestion is appropriate or not. What do they call it? "Food for thought" ?
 
 

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