I need a lot of help...
#1
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I need a lot of help...
Hello,
I own a rectangular ranch-type house in the Northeast and use oil for heating. For the last three years I have been hearing a gurgling noise from my baseboards, but thought it is normal, since every year I pay about $100 to have my furnace serviced. This year I also noticed that the baseboards along the front wall of the house barely work and during the really cold spells we had when the temperature went down to about 5F, the heating system had hard time keeping up and by the morning the temperature in the house was about 3-4 degrees colder than what it was set for.
I have basebords in every room even my basement is heated. From what I read here prior to posting this, my assumption is that there are two zones since there are two separate thermostats. I have seen pictures of different setups here, but none is like mine, so just by looking at parts and pipes around the furnace, I cannot determine anything about my system. I guess now is the time to mention that I do not have a boiler.
Here is the big picture:
I have placed a white arrow to a device that intermittenly makes an air leak sound. It has a plastic knob at the top that is unwind.
Here is a view from another angle:
This time I have placed two arrows. One shows the location of the device I discussed above and the other one shows some leakage above the little tank whose function I dont know.
Yet another picture, starting clockwise from the top left:
Upper right corner, you can see the air leaking device:
Now the bottom:
And a picture of the furnace dial, in case it is relevant:
Here are my questions:
From reading here, I understand that the first thing I should attempt is to air-bleed and possible refill the system. How do I do that? Keep in mind that I am new to this and would need more detailed explanation. Probably a brief description of my setup with naming the major parts would be nice.
Another question is: What would cause the leak above the tank and is it fixable? Is it the cause of my bigger problem?
Thank you very much in advance
Beasley
I own a rectangular ranch-type house in the Northeast and use oil for heating. For the last three years I have been hearing a gurgling noise from my baseboards, but thought it is normal, since every year I pay about $100 to have my furnace serviced. This year I also noticed that the baseboards along the front wall of the house barely work and during the really cold spells we had when the temperature went down to about 5F, the heating system had hard time keeping up and by the morning the temperature in the house was about 3-4 degrees colder than what it was set for.
I have basebords in every room even my basement is heated. From what I read here prior to posting this, my assumption is that there are two zones since there are two separate thermostats. I have seen pictures of different setups here, but none is like mine, so just by looking at parts and pipes around the furnace, I cannot determine anything about my system. I guess now is the time to mention that I do not have a boiler.
Here is the big picture:
I have placed a white arrow to a device that intermittenly makes an air leak sound. It has a plastic knob at the top that is unwind.
Here is a view from another angle:
This time I have placed two arrows. One shows the location of the device I discussed above and the other one shows some leakage above the little tank whose function I dont know.
Yet another picture, starting clockwise from the top left:
Upper right corner, you can see the air leaking device:
Now the bottom:
And a picture of the furnace dial, in case it is relevant:
Here are my questions:
From reading here, I understand that the first thing I should attempt is to air-bleed and possible refill the system. How do I do that? Keep in mind that I am new to this and would need more detailed explanation. Probably a brief description of my setup with naming the major parts would be nice.
Another question is: What would cause the leak above the tank and is it fixable? Is it the cause of my bigger problem?
Thank you very much in advance
Beasley
Last edited by NJT; 02-06-11 at 09:19 AM.
#2
That device is an air vent and is there to release air from your system. The black thing it is attached to is the air separator. That grabs bubbles floating by to send them to the vent. This is normal operation. That little screw on the top should be a little bit loose to allow the air to come out.
The problem I think that you have is that there is not enough pressure in your system. You should have a minimum of 12 psi. You will need to get more water into your boiler (yes, you do have a boiler).
Your system should be filling up automatically via the auto fill valve. Your auto fill valve is the brass device located to the left of the red shut off switch. I see the ball valve to the left is open. I see another shut off valve down the pipe to the right. Make sure that is open as well. I'm not familiar with your version of auto fill valve. There should be a fast fill option. I think that lever on top operates it, however, I am not sure. Someone else will be along to give you accurate info about that.
The problem I think that you have is that there is not enough pressure in your system. You should have a minimum of 12 psi. You will need to get more water into your boiler (yes, you do have a boiler).
Your system should be filling up automatically via the auto fill valve. Your auto fill valve is the brass device located to the left of the red shut off switch. I see the ball valve to the left is open. I see another shut off valve down the pipe to the right. Make sure that is open as well. I'm not familiar with your version of auto fill valve. There should be a fast fill option. I think that lever on top operates it, however, I am not sure. Someone else will be along to give you accurate info about that.
#3
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Let's start with some basics.
Turn both t-stats all the way down & leave them there for about 15 minutes.
Go to the boiler & feel the pipes as they go away from the zone valves (gold devices with wires at the top of picture 2). By now the pipes should be starting to cool. Note Findings.
Turn up the t-stat in the area giving you trouble. Wait 5-10 minutes & feel the pipes again. They should be hot. Note Findings.
Turn that stat back down, wait about 5-10 minutes, & repeat above procedure with other stat. Note findings & report back to us.
Turn both t-stats all the way down & leave them there for about 15 minutes.
Go to the boiler & feel the pipes as they go away from the zone valves (gold devices with wires at the top of picture 2). By now the pipes should be starting to cool. Note Findings.
Turn up the t-stat in the area giving you trouble. Wait 5-10 minutes & feel the pipes again. They should be hot. Note Findings.
Turn that stat back down, wait about 5-10 minutes, & repeat above procedure with other stat. Note findings & report back to us.
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Hi Beasley. Paul here. First you need to find a different co. to service your boiler. unless they are blind, they should have been able to see that your auto bleeders are leaking and you don't have enough pressure in your system. They should be checking your tank pressure, and making sure your feed valve is feeding water into the system. There are a lot of things that should be checked and serviced besides the burner and oil controls. So like i said you need to find some one that will give you a complete service. You might have to pay more than you are paying now.
First you need to get the auto bleeders that are leaking replaced, then get the pressure up and then you will have a chance to get the air out. So now you need to decide, is this something you want to try or do you want to call in a proper boiler man. Paul
First you need to get the auto bleeders that are leaking replaced, then get the pressure up and then you will have a chance to get the air out. So now you need to decide, is this something you want to try or do you want to call in a proper boiler man. Paul
#5
The auto-vent on the pipe that connects to the circulator needs to have the vent cap closed down tightly. It can and will suck air in when the pump starts. The air vent on the black air separator should have the cap loose. Also as stated previously the water pressure is low. If you get the pressure up the air will come out by itself as long as there is flow in the zones. Again close the cap on the vent above the circulator pump.
#6
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Hello,
Thank you for your replies.
I would like to try myself first, but am confused by terms used when it comes to part naming. So before I start with what Grady requested I would like to get the terminology right, which will connect some dots.
Please, refer to the two new pictures.
Auto fill valve, that is number 3
I assume that all valves like 2 and 5 are shut off valves and they should be open.
No idea what number 4 is called, but there is another one down the same pipe, we cannot see it.
Yet there is the 10 and 12 type that dont drain.
8 and 9 are zone valves.
Number 6 is an air separator.
Where is the tank? Is it in the furnace enclosure?
Where is the circulator? Is this the black device down the pipe where valves 4 and 5 are?
I hear feed valve (same as auto fill valve?), autobleeders, auto vent. Can you point them out to me?
Here is what I think I know:
Water to the system comes through valve number 12 and the auto fill valve number 3 into the return line.
Hot water goes to the baseboards through the valve that makes noise (number 7, you cant see it on this picture, is this the air vent that rbeck recommends closing) and the zone valves.
The air separator is number 6. I guess now is the time to mention that few years back I was bothered that it leaked so I tightened the red knob on the top. This morning I went and loosened it, air came out and also heard bubbling in the little tank underneath.
Also the water pressure on the dial shows 0, so I am guessing that it goes up only when water is pumped into the baseboards.
Thank you very much in advance.
Best
Beasley
Thank you for your replies.
I would like to try myself first, but am confused by terms used when it comes to part naming. So before I start with what Grady requested I would like to get the terminology right, which will connect some dots.
Please, refer to the two new pictures.
Auto fill valve, that is number 3
I assume that all valves like 2 and 5 are shut off valves and they should be open.
No idea what number 4 is called, but there is another one down the same pipe, we cannot see it.
Yet there is the 10 and 12 type that dont drain.
8 and 9 are zone valves.
Number 6 is an air separator.
Where is the tank? Is it in the furnace enclosure?
Where is the circulator? Is this the black device down the pipe where valves 4 and 5 are?
I hear feed valve (same as auto fill valve?), autobleeders, auto vent. Can you point them out to me?
Here is what I think I know:
Water to the system comes through valve number 12 and the auto fill valve number 3 into the return line.
Hot water goes to the baseboards through the valve that makes noise (number 7, you cant see it on this picture, is this the air vent that rbeck recommends closing) and the zone valves.
The air separator is number 6. I guess now is the time to mention that few years back I was bothered that it leaked so I tightened the red knob on the top. This morning I went and loosened it, air came out and also heard bubbling in the little tank underneath.
Also the water pressure on the dial shows 0, so I am guessing that it goes up only when water is pumped into the baseboards.
Thank you very much in advance.
Best
Beasley
Last edited by NJT; 02-06-11 at 09:15 AM.
#7
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Your zone valves are on the return pipe. Pump is on the return also.
Your auto fill is going into the supply pipe.
Hot water goes out the top of a boiler and return goes to the bottom. Hot water rises.
Your auto fill is going into the supply pipe.
Hot water goes out the top of a boiler and return goes to the bottom. Hot water rises.
#8
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Parts is parts....
1 can't see it, but it is part of your domestic hot water system (this boiler has a tankless coil for hot water). Don't worry about this right now.
2 ball valve. this one is open. it is on the boiler water fill line
3 auto-fill valve, also known as pressure-reducing valve. Lifting that little blade at the top will add more water to the system. It is adjustable. We'll get to that later.
4 globe valve with hose bib (i.e., faucet). used to drain water from system and for purging.
5 full-port ball valve. here, it's called an isolation valve because closing it 'isolates' the boiler from the rest of the system. The black thing below it is the circulator. Probably a Taco 007.
6 the black thing is the air separator. the thing above it is an air vent. sometimes known as a Hy-Vent. the red cap should be loose (open). all that staining means you have a leak. we'll get to that later. the gray tank below it is the expansion tank.
7 I can't see that. but I think it's the air vent that is making hissing air noises. You need to close the cap on that. Whoever installed that is a knucklehead.
8, 9 zone valves. they are connected to your thermostats. when the therrmostat calls for heat, it opens the zone valve and fires the boiler.
10 can't see it
11 ball valve. appears to be part of your domestic hot water system.
12 globe valve. can't really see what it's connected to.
Here's what I suggest.
a) close cap on that air vent (7)
b) lift blade on auto fill
c) see if pressure gauge rises. Try to get it to about 12-15 psi.
d) watch for water anywhere.
e) monitor and report back.
1 can't see it, but it is part of your domestic hot water system (this boiler has a tankless coil for hot water). Don't worry about this right now.
2 ball valve. this one is open. it is on the boiler water fill line
3 auto-fill valve, also known as pressure-reducing valve. Lifting that little blade at the top will add more water to the system. It is adjustable. We'll get to that later.
4 globe valve with hose bib (i.e., faucet). used to drain water from system and for purging.
5 full-port ball valve. here, it's called an isolation valve because closing it 'isolates' the boiler from the rest of the system. The black thing below it is the circulator. Probably a Taco 007.
6 the black thing is the air separator. the thing above it is an air vent. sometimes known as a Hy-Vent. the red cap should be loose (open). all that staining means you have a leak. we'll get to that later. the gray tank below it is the expansion tank.
7 I can't see that. but I think it's the air vent that is making hissing air noises. You need to close the cap on that. Whoever installed that is a knucklehead.
8, 9 zone valves. they are connected to your thermostats. when the therrmostat calls for heat, it opens the zone valve and fires the boiler.
10 can't see it
11 ball valve. appears to be part of your domestic hot water system.
12 globe valve. can't really see what it's connected to.
Here's what I suggest.
a) close cap on that air vent (7)
b) lift blade on auto fill
c) see if pressure gauge rises. Try to get it to about 12-15 psi.
d) watch for water anywhere.
e) monitor and report back.
#9
Let's see if we can get some of the questions answered:
Yes, also called PRESSURE REDUCING VALVE
Yes, 2 will allow you to shut off the water feed into the SUPPLY pipe of the boiler. When used in conjunction with 12 you can isolate the reducing valve for service.
4 is a boiler drain. Used in conjunction with 5 and some other valves you would use these to 'purge' the system if necessary (after service to remove air when refilling the system) ... 4 and 5 together would be called a 'purge station'.
I can't see 10 really, but those are commonly called 'stop valves'. Those two valves appear to be on your domestic water piping.
Correct.
Yes, and on top is an 'automatic float type air vent'. The EXPANSION TANK hangs from the separator.
What tank? see above... the boiler is full of water.
Yes, the black thing. It is on the RETURN pipe.
Number 3 is your Feed valve, auto fill valve, pressure reducing valve, add the word DAMN to any of those for variation on the theme.
Autobleeder, auto vent, automatic float type air vent... same same...
Auto fill valve, that is number 3
I assume that all valves like 2 and 5 are shut off valves and they should be open.
No idea what number 4 is called, but there is another one down the same pipe, we cannot see it.
Yet there is the 10 and 12 type that dont drain.
8 and 9 are zone valves.
Number 6 is an air separator.
Where is the tank? Is it in the furnace enclosure?
Where is the circulator? Is this the black device down the pipe where valves 4 and 5 are?
I hear feed valve (same as auto fill valve?), autobleeders, auto vent. Can you point them out to me?
Autobleeder, auto vent, automatic float type air vent... same same...
#10
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Thank you all for the detailed explanations.
I have one last stupid question, before go and do everything you asked me to.
Does the system stay pressurized at all times or pressure is build up only when hot water is delivered to the baseboards?
Thank you in advance. I appreciate your time.
Best
I have one last stupid question, before go and do everything you asked me to.
Does the system stay pressurized at all times or pressure is build up only when hot water is delivered to the baseboards?
Thank you in advance. I appreciate your time.
Best
#11
There are very few stupid questions! Unless of course you ask my wife... she says I ask them all the time! I said to her the other day: "Can I ask you a stupid question?" she replied: "I can't think of anyone better qualified!" ...
The pressure reducing valve is supposed to keep the MINIMUM pressure in the system at 12 PSI +/- ... that is of course unless it's a DAMN pressure reducing valve.
So the answer is that the system does stay pressurized always... 12 PSI for most homes, slightly higher for homes that are 3 stories or more.
Since water expands when heated, the pressure will increase as it is [heated]. Water can't be compressed, but air can, and the job of the expansion tank is to control that pressure increase by providing a compressible air 'cushion' and a place for that 'extra' water to be stored.
Does the system stay pressurized at all times or pressure is build up only when hot water is delivered to the baseboards?
So the answer is that the system does stay pressurized always... 12 PSI for most homes, slightly higher for homes that are 3 stories or more.
Since water expands when heated, the pressure will increase as it is [heated]. Water can't be compressed, but air can, and the job of the expansion tank is to control that pressure increase by providing a compressible air 'cushion' and a place for that 'extra' water to be stored.
#13
By the way, I think that item #1 is a domestic hot water 'tempering valve'. This valve mixes some cold with the hot coming from the coil in the boiler (which is behind the round plate that is behind the gray box (your aquastat) on the front of the boiler)
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When you lift the blade thingy on the pressure reducing valve, you should hear water filling the system. When you let go of the blade thingy, the water should stop. The pressure on your gauge should go up a bit.
If you lift the blade thingy and you don't hear any water, AND you don't see the pressure go up, then make sure globe valve 12 is open. I think that's the feed water shutoff.
If you lift the blade thingy and you hear water, and the pressure goes up to 12-16 psi, and then you let go of the blade thingy but still hear water and the pressure keeps going up, then close ball valve 2.
Give it a whirl.