boiler zone valve and relays

Reply

  #1  
Old 03-04-11, 03:46 PM
J
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: canada
Posts: 22
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
boiler zone valve and relays

Just wondering if someone can give me guidance on finishing my hot water boiler "on demand".I have three zones.One is hooked to a relay and works fine.The other two zones are hooked to a relay and when either zone calls for heat they both come on.They are hooked to one relay.The relay i am using is a Allen Bradley square type.it has eight pins in a round type pattern.I am looking for some sort of schematic i guess to add another relay to seperate the two zones.I have little knowledge of relays but know how they work.Zone valves I also have little knowledge off.
Any educators out there willing to help a newbe?
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 03-04-11, 04:36 PM
ray2047's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,597
Received 13 Votes on 11 Posts
Jbbuilt, Welcome to the forums. I have moved your post over to Boilers. It fits better there. There should be someone along soon to help you.
 
  #3  
Old 03-04-11, 11:54 PM
F
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wet side of Washington state.
Posts: 18,495
Received 35 Votes on 27 Posts
The eight-pin round configuration is called an "octal" plug from the old vacuum tube era. The relays you have are DPDT (Double Pole, Double Throw) meaning two independent switch circuits that can be either "on" or "off" when the relay coil is energized.

Pins 2 and 7 are the relay coil connections. Pin one is the "armature of one pole and connects to pin 3 when the relay is energized and to pin 4 when the relay is de-energized. Pin 8 is the armature of the second pole and connects to pin 6 when the relay is energized and to pin 5 when the relay is de-energized. These connections are generic and apply to all eight-pin octal relays that have no other functions such as timing relays.

Now as to how to connect the relays to work in your system will require that I know what thermostats, zone valves (or circulators), transformers and boiler aquastat you have installed.
 
  #4  
Old 03-05-11, 12:01 PM
J
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: canada
Posts: 22
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Thanks for the relay info.That helped alot to understand how it works.I hate having stuff in my house and not understand how it works.
Now for your questions.
The transformer is a honeywell [email protected] at 72d-1725.Wht 120v 50/60 hz.That is all i can see printed on it. Need more info just ask.

T-stat is just your basic Honeywell progamable type.
Zone valve says synchrom and also honeywell.
Circulator is groundfog 115v-60hz.
Aquastat, i have no idea.It is a Monitron by Slant-fin if this helps.
The Bsmt is wired to the circ valve by one relay.No zone valve.
Upstairs is north and south zone valves wired to one relay.
They now both come on when ever either calls for heat.

Am i correct to assume that i do not need another relay?
The guy that helped hook it up thought it could be done but was unsure and was going to use another relay.Now i heat the whole house when one Zcalls for heat...
Longer heat up times are adding up.
And ,as i said...I love,need to know how it works.
Thanks for time and input..
 
  #5  
Old 03-05-11, 02:20 PM
F
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wet side of Washington state.
Posts: 18,495
Received 35 Votes on 27 Posts
Please post a few pictures of your boiler and the aquastat. Pictures with the cover of the aquastat removed also.

I probably won't be able to post a sketch for several days as I have to do some work at my sister's house and then some appointments the first part of next week.

To post pictures you need to first upload the pictures to a photo hosting site such as photobucket.com or villagephotos.com. and then post the public URLs for the pictures (or album) here. More pictures are always better than fewer. Please have CLEAR, in focus and well lit pictures and have both close up pictures and ones from a far enough distance that we can see how the various parts are interconnected.
 
  #6  
Old 03-05-11, 04:26 PM
J
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: canada
Posts: 22
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
aquastat?.
I am not familiar with that term nor had it mentioned during installation.Will post some pics but need more info as to what you want to see.It is a simple Slant fin tankless boiler ,name brand Monitron II that loops.there is a flow control switch.then two zone valves then a circ pump for bsmt heat controlled by relay, that works fine and finally a cir pump for the system.

Will work on the pics this week.No rush to get it right.
The winter is almost over here.Best to play with the wires in the spring anyway.I have had the plumbing loop explained to me and now wish to get the volts right.Both in the house and in my head...lol.
Thanks again for your time.
 
  #7  
Old 03-05-11, 04:50 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
  #8  
Old 03-05-11, 04:52 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
I believe Figure 6 in this installation manual should help you somewhat

http://slantfin.com/documents/396.pdf
 
  #9  
Old 03-05-11, 04:55 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
Let me ask you this, why did you not use zone valves for all three zones? and only one circulator? what is the reason for the separate circulator on the basement zone?

If you had only one circ and three valves, you wouldn't really need any relays at all.
 
  #10  
Old 03-05-11, 05:25 PM
J
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: canada
Posts: 22
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Yes, this boiler is similar to mine,howerver i have digital display on the left side,,,makes it #2...?
Will study the page you suggest and hope it sinks in over the weekend.
The last post of yours is wrong i believe.
I only have two zone valves on top floor..north and south.
Bsmt has no zone valve only a circ pump and relay.
To answer the ? of why zone valves 'main floor only' would be on advice of plumber.I forget but I believe it was easier to replace a zone valve as opposed to a circ.

Bsmt is in floor conc and main floor is 'in joist'.

Again...Aquastat ?
Will try to trace how the relays are wired but is so close together I must empty box to see them.
Thanks to the Trooper as well
Love knowledge and love to learn......!
 
  #11  
Old 03-05-11, 08:41 PM
F
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wet side of Washington state.
Posts: 18,495
Received 35 Votes on 27 Posts
I'm really looking forward to the pictures of the system, more are going to be better than fewer.

An "aquastat" is nothing more than a thermostat with the measuring probe inserted into the boiler water. Depending on the system it could have one or more adjustable "set points" to control the maximum and minimum temperature of the boiler water. Most aquastats also control the circulating pump under the control of a low-voltage room thermostat. Generally the aquastat will inhibit the heat input (fuel burner or electric element) unless a room thermostat is "calling for heat".

The figure six in the manual that Trooper linked to is a good example of how your system would normally be wired. I don't know how it is currently wired but I would bet a dozen donuts it isn't in accordance with that diagram. If you notice in that diagram the room thermostats control the individual zone valves and the "end switches" of the zone valves control the main circulating pump (and heat elements) through the action of the aquastat.

It may be that your particular zone valves are a "three-wire motor control" and not directly compatible with the room thermostats but need the control relays to properly operate the zone valves. This is not common but it does happen and it is a fairly easy design modification if necessary.

I am confused though (a common occurrence ), do you have a total of TWO circulating pumps, one for the basement and a separate one for the upper floors or a single pump that operates when ever any thermostat calls for heat?
 
  #12  
Old 03-06-11, 03:52 AM
J
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: canada
Posts: 22
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
You know.I had to go look and see myself how many circ pumps were there.Had a brain fart i guess.
There is a total of three pumps. One to circ water thru the system in a loop and make flow switch come on.Another for the bsmt heat contolled by a relay.The other circ goes to the two zone valves on the main floor
 
  #13  
Old 03-06-11, 11:06 AM
F
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wet side of Washington state.
Posts: 18,495
Received 35 Votes on 27 Posts
More than ever I want to see the pictures.
 
  #14  
Old 03-06-11, 04:26 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
Your boiler probably doesn't have the aquastat that we are used to seeing on gas and oil fired appliances. Being an electric job, there certainly IS a device measuring the water temperature, and likely a control to adjust same, but you won't find the kind of aquastat we are talking about.

I too would need to see pics to advise further. It really sounds like you got something there that might be all whacked and pieced together.

On the other hand, you might have what is called a primary/secondary setup. This could possibly be the 'loop' around the boiler you were talking about, and then there could be two pumped zones, with one of them split in two with zone valves.

But yeah, pics...
 
  #15  
Old 03-07-11, 02:38 AM
J
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: canada
Posts: 22
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Yes, Trooper. I believe you are right on the primary secondary loop.
The boiler is not pieced together.A real plumber did this and has done many many of these.The electric was done by an apprentice.He just never came back to finish and we lost touch.
Have no fear pics will be here.
 
  #16  
Old 03-07-11, 01:59 PM
J
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: canada
Posts: 22
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Boiler pictures by johnbond66 - Photobucket
Hope this works.If not I may need help.
If it does,ask for more detail if wanted.
 

Last edited by jbbuilt; 03-07-11 at 02:15 PM.
  #17  
Old 03-07-11, 03:22 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
Well... that's not exactly a primary/secondary setup... I'm not sure what to call it... I need to study them pics a bit more.

To answer the original question, that's gonna require some studification also. First to figure out WTH that messo wires does, and then to figure how to make it do what you want it to.

Whatever the outcome, it's going to be a 'band-aid', and not a 'cure'.
 
  #18  
Old 03-07-11, 03:46 PM
J
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: canada
Posts: 22
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I can pop the relays and spread out the wires to get a handle on where they go.I figure it shouldn't be to much band-aid.There are many boilers around here set up with alot more zones then my three.I'm thinking it just needs another relay.That was what my apprentice was going to do next visit,Maybe he just didn't know how but he was in touch with his journeyman and seemed to think that was the answer.
 
  #19  
Old 03-07-11, 04:51 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
Don't go taking it apart on our account... because my experience looking at pics of wiring on the screen tells me that it's going to be a chore one way or the other... trust me, I've tried, and it's durn near impossible.

This type of 'fix' really requires someone who understands controls to be there... hands on.

Why the guys didn't use off the shelf controls such as Taco SR and ZVC panels is a mystery to me... by the time all those components you have were installed and wired, if they had used packaged systems, they would have been in and out... and it would have worked.

The way your system is piped is uhhhhh... I'm trying to be gentle... let's say 'unconventional'. I don't know what else to say about that without stepping on toes.
 
  #20  
Old 03-08-11, 03:37 AM
J
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: canada
Posts: 22
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Not really taking it apart,just "de bunching" it so I can see where it all goes.As I said I need to know how things work.
Maybe not used a packaged system for lower cost....not sure..
These guys are some people i work with building houses.
As far as the "toes"...step on em all ya want.Us Nova Scotians are a unconvential lot anyway...lol..
I was sure I seen a layout of this type of piping somewhere and will have to search to find it again.
May have to befriend another local electrician to get er figured.
 
  #21  
Old 03-08-11, 09:30 AM
Z
Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,139
Received 17 Votes on 17 Posts
Originally Posted by jbbuilt View Post
… Us Nova Scotians are a unconvential lot anyway...lol..
...
I think that’s true. Great place! Lot of good people up there. I used to do work close to downtown (ha-ha) Debert. (Downtown was a 4-way stop sign intersection with a bank on one corner and a grocery store on another corner).

Used to cash expense checks in the town bank. One time the guard looked at me funny and asked me how I got in? Turns out the bank was closed and they forgot to lock the doors.
 
  #22  
Old 03-08-11, 09:48 AM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
Allrighty then, if I don't have to worry about stepping on toes, I'll run ya a list of what I see wrong with that install... later this evening perhaps.

But, presuming that you are happy enough with it as it is, that won't matter, just for information is all.

Now, on to your issue:

Please tell us what the model number of the relay is.

You should not need another relay.

The two zone valves that you have should be wired up on the MOTOR side exactly like the diagram that I pointed out in the manual in a previous post.

Each thermostat will control the opening/closing of it's respective valve.

The ENDSWITCH however is a different story... the two endswitches on your zone valves will be wired in parallel (these are the red wires) and they will then control one of the relays that are already in the box.

One set of contacts on that relay will run the respective circ pump, and the other set of contacts will fire the boiler on the T T terminals.

If you can draw up some kind of diagram of how it's wired, that would help me help you immensely.

Here are some things to look for:

How are the YELLOW wires on the zone valve connected?

How are the wires from the thermostats connected?

How are the RED wires on the zone valves connected.

What are the T T wires on the boiler connected to?

Where is the circulator on the BOILER loop connected (wires, not pipes)?
 
  #23  
Old 03-08-11, 09:55 AM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
by the way, if cost was a factor in deciding to spend lots of hours of labor doing discrete wiring, then someones calculator has slipped a digit somewhere... the packaged stuff is only about a hundred bucks or so for a panel that would do what you want. That's like a hour of labor for a journeyman electrician. Even the apprentice is probably billed at least half that... so if he spent more than two hours on the job ... and I betcha he was there for two days?

The savings over the years would add up too, because unless they drew and posted a schematic diagram of the wiring, every time there was a problem, the tech would have to spend time figuring out how it was wired, etc... using the industry standard stuff is a no brainer.
 
  #24  
Old 03-08-11, 10:35 AM
F
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wet side of Washington state.
Posts: 18,495
Received 35 Votes on 27 Posts
I'm using a laptop so I don't even try to sort out the wiring on pictures of such systems. As Trooper stated, it really requires a tech on site to first decipher the wiring and then re-wire as necessary.

I have to admit though, the picture takes me back a few years. All that yellow/orange fixture wire is exactly what we used (along with other color pairs) when doing remote instrumentation systems. Those Allen-Bradley relays are way overkill and the home-made system is...well, home-made looking. While I would have likely also made the control from individual parts I would have done a better job than that.

Sorry, but I can't offer any more help unless you want to fly me (first class of course ) to your local airport, have a limo to drive me around and book me in a good hotel for the duration. I could probably put your system together in a week or so.
 
  #25  
Old 03-08-11, 03:35 PM
J
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: canada
Posts: 22
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by zoesdad View Post

Used to cash expense checks in the town bank. One time the guard looked at me funny and asked me how I got in? Turns out the bank was closed and they forgot to lock the doors.
HaHa.That happened to me at Tim Hortons one night.Came home from downtown Halifax and stopped in for a coffee.Waited at the counter for service and then the cops showed up.Turns out i set off the silent alarm.They had left for the night with the lights on and door unlocked.Got a free ride home but no coffee...lol
 
  #26  
Old 03-08-11, 04:06 PM
J
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: canada
Posts: 22
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I am happy with the boiler Trooper.Maybe it is not right but it works good for the heat.What do I know ...I just a nail banger...Labour was not an issue cause we trade off around here with help, puffs,wobbly pops,whatever. As long as the tax man is not involved its half price.I figure the system has cost me around two grand sofar...including 2000ft pipe so we're good.
Two days on the wiring ? No way..I did most of the main stuff in two hours and buddy did the relay, transformer, t-stats in about another two hours.Pack of beer and a puff and he got most stuff from work leftovers.But I understand what you mean about using a made up unit.Not knowing why we didn't do that but what is done is done.Our industry standard is most likely prehistoric around here.
The only one thing I don't like on the plumbing is that one circ is upside down pumping to the bsmt.Again it was done and is done...oh well.
You ask what the T T wires are connected to..Not sure what you mean.
I will try my best to trace all the wires...even for my own knowledge..
I will work on it this week and hope to get the info by weekend.

Keep stepping..I got steel toes on ..lol

Furd....well...I figure you read zoesdads post and wanna come check out our hospitality.
lol... just happen to have a cot by the boiler if your ever in town.no need for them thar fancy hotels and commutes to work.haha


Thanks all for your time.
You guys must be good typers cause its taking me a long time pokin this keyboard with my pointy finger.
 
  #27  
Old 03-08-11, 04:45 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
John, I think the best way to do this is forget what's done... don't bother trying to figure it out. What I'm gonna do is throw together a schematic diagram of how it COULD be done, with the existing relays. It would be up to you to figure out how to implement the changes.

Gimmee a day or two... and I'll post it here... and if yer ever down this way I'll take it out in trade. I got a garage that needs rebuilding...
 
  #28  
Old 03-08-11, 05:56 PM
J
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: canada
Posts: 22
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Thanks again for your time.
I can't forget about whats done,I will have to get in there to figure it out.Even if it is just to satisfiy me....And know how to return it to its original state.Hope i can figure out your diagrams.Remember, i'm a nail banger ,hope it looks like a blueprint.
Garage's are easy to do compared to chasing a live wire.Winter is about over here so ya never know when i'm up for a little trip when the next winter hits.They tend to frown on you when you have your gear at the border though.
Free trade eh......whats that?
Relay is a AB700
 
  #29  
Old 03-08-11, 06:22 PM
D
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 4,947
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by jbbuilt View Post
Labour was not an issue cause we trade off around here with help, puffs,wobbly pops,whatever.
You guys get a case of Blue Star, do wheelies on your Honda 50's, and go flat out?
 
  #30  
Old 03-08-11, 06:40 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
I dunno blueprint... it's not my best effort cuz I whacked it together real quick.

You should only have to do minimal wiring changes. I think I know how they messed up. I think they wired the thermostats for upstairs to run the relay, and the relay is running both zone valves. INSTEAD, the thermostats should be running the zone valves, and the zone valves running the relay.

The basement zone is wired so the thermostat runs the relay... and since there are no zone valves, that's just fine... and they followed suit with the upstairs.

Here's the diagram:



If the forum resizes the pic, and you can't read it, go here:

mONTREALZONE diagram

Some browsers you can right click the pic, then VIEW PICTURE and it will go full screen.

Any questions?
 
  #31  
Old 03-08-11, 06:47 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
By the way, I'm not gonna make that laundry list of stuff I see wrong... what's the point?
 
  #32  
Old 03-09-11, 02:24 AM
J
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: canada
Posts: 22
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Perfect.
My only question is ....Why I didn't come here first? Now I can't wait to look in that box and see what i got.
Maybe its best to not tell me what's wrong cause it may drive me crazy and make me change it....and we don't want that....lol
However...Do you see any issues with the bsmt pump being upside down? I had read air being trapped in the pump would cause it to overheat and fail premature.
Thanks for the easy to read..blueprint
 
  #33  
Old 03-09-11, 05:16 AM
D
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 4,947
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Mount it the way the manufacturer says to mount it. All the air in your system should be elminated.
 
  #34  
Old 03-09-11, 02:26 PM
J
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: canada
Posts: 22
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Thanks drooplug.
Whats a Blue star?..Case of Keiths for me everytime..
And its a cr85 and yes flat out every gear every time...lol
 
  #35  
Old 03-09-11, 02:41 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
The only time I can think that air would get trapped in a circ would be if were equipped with the internal flow check valve (I think yours are) AND it was pumping UP. There's no problem with a pump pumping down that I know of...
 
  #36  
Old 03-09-11, 03:10 PM
D
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 4,947
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by jbbuilt View Post
Thanks drooplug.
Whats a Blue star?..Case of Keiths for me everytime..
And its a cr85 and yes flat out every gear every time...lol
Must be something that they only drink in New Foundland.
 
  #37  
Old 03-09-11, 06:14 PM
Z
Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,139
Received 17 Votes on 17 Posts
Originally Posted by jbbuilt View Post
..Case of Keiths for me everytime..
...
Wow, I thought Tim Hortons brought back memories. They are good! But Keith’s. Boy does that bring back memories. Keith’s truly is outstanding. Unfortunately I believe we don’t get it down here. But I and my co-workers enjoyed our share in Nova Scotia over many years! But I have a riddle. What’s from Nova Scotia is even better than Keith’s, the old and grand Hotel Nova Scotia in Halifax, Peggy’s Cove, Mill Cove, Halifax, Truro, etc….? (Yea, all the great places with great folks )

Answer: Anne Murray

So it’s easy! Just put Furd up in the grand old hotel Nova Scotia, with a good supply of Keith’s, and have Anne Murray perform, and that would be like heaven. Thus Furd would then fix your system! (LOL)
 
  #38  
Old 03-10-11, 02:19 AM
J
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: canada
Posts: 22
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
LOL....Anne better than Keiths....There is only one of her.
You may want to check your specialty store.It is no longer "brewed only in Nova Scotia".
Apparently word got out and now others need it also so it is now being shipped out of the maritimes.They also make it out west now,where our population has moved looking for work.
 
Reply
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: