heating system help

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Old 03-27-11, 11:34 AM
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heating system help

Hello..

I'm at the end (and the beginning) of a long uphill process of setting up a heating system in a 5 unit apartment building in north Jersey, heat loss btwn 10k and 25k per unit. Using old cast iron rads, two zones each unit, 2 large and one small rad per zone. I have a Triangle Tube 175 and a superstor 60 in the basement, next to 3/4 pex feed and return lines.

I realized yesterday that my installer has never installed a condensing boiler; don't have the $ to hire somebody for 5 - 20k. So looks like i'll be figuring out the piping. (There's a remarkable resistance to new technology in my area)

I already have 9 taco 007f circulators, 1 taco 0010 circulator and 2 taco 6 zone relays, a honeywell acquatat, a high limit control, a backflow preventor, a b&G flow check; i do not have thermostats. (I need to either use remote sensors in each zone with thermostat(s) in the boiler room; or a something like tekmar's rtu 369 which would allow me to set heating range; can't leave the heat level up to tenants. Maybe the taco relay isn't the right thing to use??)

What I'm looking for is

1) an understanding of the chain of control: thermostat, to control/relay, pump, dhw control.

2) the essentials of the boiler piping outside what's in the TT manual http://www.triangletube.com/document...399_Manual.pdf, which I've gathered are not ideal for every install;I have looked through this forum a little. I'm looking at the posts which point to other condensing boiler manuals (burnham alpine; pictures of the solo 110 setup; weil-mclaine ultra).
http://forum.doityourself.com/boiler...ry-piping.html and http://forum.doityourself.com/boiler...tallation.html There's issues about the placement of the "ch" circulator pump, the boiler direct vs. secondary boiler loop, the use of a strainer, how is the DHW set a priority, how is temp controlled (mixing valve necessary).

Basically i need a drawing for my TT 175, 9 zone, with indirect that i can run with and refine... Is it out there?

Any help or suggestions much appreciated!!!
 
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Old 03-27-11, 06:26 PM
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I don't like to see a question go down without an answer...

But I'm just not sure where to start... there's just so much you need to know!

It would be so much easier to answer direct questions!
 
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Old 03-27-11, 06:38 PM
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Yes what Trooper said but lets get specifics.

5 apartments ?
Cast Iron rads?
What make and model boiler is there now?
How is the heating and HW set up now for the tenants?


Lets get basic to start.......

Mike NJ
 
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Old 03-27-11, 06:42 PM
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I'll try to provide some info even though I am far from an expert.

The thermostat will make a call for heat and the control module will run the appropriate circulator and turn the boiler on.

The DHW could be set up for priority a couple ways. You should have a control module that allows you to run your DHW as priority. Maybe a model number on what you have would help identify.

What is it about the piping strategies in the manual that causes you concern?

Check out the tech menu at Heat Loss calculation. Some good information there that may help you understand some things.
 
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Old 03-27-11, 06:59 PM
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I checked out the manual and it looks like Figure 9 is what you want to go with. The only thing it doesn't show is the indirect piping. You will want to pipe the indirect off the boiler loop with closely spaced T's with it's own circulator. If your IDHW is set to priority, only the the IDWH circ should run when it needs heat. The circ on the boiler loop should not be running.

What is your question about the location of the CH pump? Not sure what CH stands for, but I see TT refers to the pump on the boiler loop as CH.

If your pumps have integrated check valves in them, you won't need those flow controls.
 
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Old 03-27-11, 10:29 PM
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more specific...

Thanks for your replies. It's already seeming more possible!

Yea, the Triangle Tube Manual doesn't have a complete drawing. The munchkin manual does http://www.htproducts.com/literature/lp-185.pdf. So the indirect will draw from the primary loop and have it's circulator wired directly to the boiler. (The TT manual makes it look like the domestic t off immediately from the supply.)

And let me try a few more pointed questions!

The ch (central heating) pump. What size should it be?

Does this idhw system needs a mixing valve or does the aquastat take care of that? Here's a quote from the manual: "Connect the DHW thermostat (aquastat) to the 24V terminal strip on the wiring panel located below the PRESTIGE Solo control module" How and where is the aquastat installed?

My longest rad is about 75 feet (25 vertical) from the boiler. Will the taco 007 work?

I'm not sure if the taco 007s have integrated check valves.

Thermostats... I can't let the tenants set the temp to 80. For thermostatic control I'm thinking to use remote wall sensors which call thermostats in the boiler room, which call the (taco) relay.... Is there a thermostatic control that could deal with multiple zones? A friend installed a Tekmar 369 Room Control Unit which allowed her to control the allowed heating range of multiple thermostats and I think acted as a relay as well. Not sure... Any suggestions?

I've noticed that some drawings/photos integrate a strainer. Any feedback on that?

Thanks for your help!
 
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Old 03-27-11, 11:02 PM
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Thermostats... I can't let the tenants set the temp to 80
Why not????

If I was paying rent and I was cold I want my temp at 80. If not Ill sue you....


Watch out...

Mike NJ
 
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Old 03-28-11, 05:48 AM
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With these drawings you kind of have to piece them together. You also need to know a little bit about piping strategies. I think your system should be primary/secondary piping which figure 9 is, but the one that shows the idhw is not.

For IDHW, where are talking about placing the mixing valve? You do not want one on the boiler piping. You want the highest temperature going to the tank for the fastest recovery. You may need one on the domestic water line that comes out of the tank if you tank temperature will be above 130 degrees. I say put one in no matter what. You can probably set the mixing valve at 120 degrees and this will reduce any liability issues you will have with scalding and your tenants. You may need to boost the tank temperature at a later date to increase performance.

I can't help too much with the circ sizing. I know it is based on feet of head. I think the most important one to get right is the CH pump. The boiler has to have it's flow requirements met for performance and longevity.

Can't shed too might light on the thermostat issue either. There are definitely products like you are talking about, but I don't know what they are or where to find them. Take a look at pexsupply.com. They may have something you are looking for. Perhaps the thermostat forum guys can help as well.

The strainer? Not sure about it. I don't have one on my system, but that doesn't make it right. I did install a whole house filter because of sediment in my lines. Can't hurt to install one. I'm sure it's not too costly to buy.
 
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Old 03-29-11, 06:50 AM
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help with thermostatic contorls...

I'm a nj homeowner trying to put together a heating system for a 5 units in an apartment building. I decided to provide central heat and hot water through a a Triangle Tube Solo 175 Boiler, a Superstor 60 sidearm and 9 heating zones. The radiation is cast iron rads.

I need help in identifying a thermostat set up. I either set a single daytime/nightime temp (68 or 70) or a have a set up where tenants can control their heat from 67-71. A friend used a tekmar 369 room control unit for this purpose. IN the first option i would use sensors to a thermostat(s) in the boiler room. The control wires presently run to the basement are three wire.

I have taco circulator pumps and two 6 zone taco relays.

I need help identifying some products that would work for my application.



Thermostats... I can't let the tenants set the temp to 80. For thermostatic control I'm thinking to use remote wall sensors which call thermostats in the boiler room, which call the (taco) relay.... Is there a thermostatic control that could deal with multiple zones? A friend installed a Tekmar 369 Room Control Unit which allowed her to control the allowed heating range of multiple thermostats and I think acted as a relay as well. Not sure... Any suggestions?
 

Last edited by Bisseti; 03-29-11 at 07:11 AM.
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Old 03-29-11, 06:57 AM
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I am going to move you over to the boiler section since I have not been around such controls.

If it were me, I'd set it up where the tenants can set their temps, other wise I'd think the complex won't get the good word if they have no control of the heat.
 
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Old 03-29-11, 07:05 AM
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Hah! So much for my advice to try the thermostat forum. Sorry about that.
 
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Old 03-29-11, 07:20 AM
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I checked out the Tekmar 369 and seems like the right thing for you to do. What is your reluctance to go this route if your friend used it for the same purpose?
 
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Old 03-29-11, 08:36 AM
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tekmar

I think it's for max six zones. I need to control 8. The price is high too. I already have the taco relays, but maybe could return them. I'm going to try contacting tekmar. Definitely would be better to give some heat control to the tenants...
 
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Old 03-29-11, 10:11 AM
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There may appear to be some duplicate posts here... I've merged the thread which was cross-posted in another forum and moved here.
 
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Old 03-29-11, 03:39 PM
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Gonna be a little point of fact here, then you can digest is and send back your questions...
There is no way your going to stick 9 zones on a solo 175 with out having some longevity issues.

You need a mass tank / buffer tank / storage tank whatever you want to call to draw the zones from.

The boiler has all the brains in it to make your system and life easy.
Use 9 cheap stats in the units, let them crank it to 80 as you are going to limit the water temp to allow the units to heat to 70 or 72 whatever your jurisdiction requires you do. You will set the OUTDOOR warm weather shut-off to turn the heat off once outdoors get up to a certain temp.

I would use a grundfos 26-99 or Taco 0010 to charge the mass tank, and a Grundfos Alpha or Magna (depends on the head needed) or a Taco Bumblebee (again depends on the head need) to circulate the zones. Use zone valves on each zone and get some taco ZVC boxes (use expansion boxes to simplify wiring) to interface the stat and zone valve. Let the boiler maintain the mass tank per outdoor reset curve, and draw from the tank as required.

The boiler will also look after water temp and priorities for the DHW tank, but you may want to look carefully to make sure you have enough storage for 9 units. The priority built into the boiler will not produce space heating if there is a long duration DHW call. (hence adequate storage).

System will be easy to set up and maintain. Annual electrical and gas charges should be quite reasonable.
 

Last edited by NJT; 03-29-11 at 06:48 PM.
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Old 03-29-11, 07:11 PM
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I think I found what you need for thermostats. Here is one link: Thermostats for Landlords | prothermostats.com - programmable thermostats by Honeywell, White-Rodgers, Robertshaw, LuxPRO

Search "landlord thermostat" and "tamper proof thermostat". They limit the max heat setting and min a/c setting on the thermostat.
 
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Old 03-29-11, 07:14 PM
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I was just looking over you original post. Why are you puuting more than one zone in each unit? I don't see why you would need more than 5 zones if you have 5 units.
 
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Old 03-30-11, 07:51 AM
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Wow, thanks for all the input.

My heat loss is 100-120k, which is why i thought the 175 would do it. Two apartments have a heat loss of 30k, two have a heat loss of 20k, and one has a heat loss of 10K. I divided the apartments in two zone because they are long rectangles and will require different btus depending on the time of day; I also thought this will save energy as the boiler will only provide heat where needed. (e.g. zone 1 is colder, much less sun). The zones are run with 3/4 pex pipe going to two cast iron 10-13 column, 5 section, 24" high cast iron rads and a tiny piece of bathr iron baseboard per zone. Maximum run is 25 vertical feet and 50 horizontal.

TOHeating I was thinking of using a taco 0010 pump for the ch circulator, as you suggested; i have taco 007f for the zone circulators and a taco 0010 for the domestic. Do you feel strongly about the valves vs the 007 (note: i do have space constraints)? Seeing my heat loss do you still feel i need the buffer? Can you point me to a drawing that would help me understand your suggestion? I can return the pumps and relay - but not the boiler!

Drooplug, Thanks for the suggestions on thermostats (the tekmar set up hits $1700...) My radiation is oversized; this is why i was interested in thermostatic controls vs. reset curve. If its equally oversized in all apt i could just tinker with the reset curve until a call of 80 degree will give them 70. Maybe I could get the water down to 150 and lower.
 
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Old 03-30-11, 08:06 AM
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How much do you want to spend on electricity.
I can hold a 24V zone valve open with a few watts or run a 007 at 80 watts or so.
Multiply that by 7 and times it by the hours a day the heating will run...

You can put thermostatic rad valves at each rad and let that determine room temp.
Simplisity will cost you less up front, and cost less to run and maintain.
 
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Old 03-30-11, 09:53 AM
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You said you have 5 apartments and 9 zones. I understand having each apartment on it's own zone but I don't understand one apartment having two zones. Keep it as one.
 
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Old 03-30-11, 10:51 PM
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zone valves

Yea that's a lot of electric savings. More elegant too. I'd have to calculate the head loss.

Do you still feel i need the buffer, after seeing the heat loss?

Also, the triangle tube manual calls for domestic piping to be drawn off the boiler loop, not the secondary. That it seems to me is different from say munchkin or burnham alpine.

The zones are in, piped to the basement.
 
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