How about this idea?

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Old 04-18-11, 10:18 PM
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How about this idea?

Ok, 1st post so here goes...

Looking to replace my furnace. The following are the details:
1. 33 yr old 1900 sq foot ranch, furnace is the same age, 3 heating zones
2. oil fuel, city gas not available and really not interested in propane as I would need to run gas lines & 'lease' a tank from the local oil/gas company thieves.
3. also have an electric HW heater as the tankless coil is 'congested' with calcium and is currently unused. Prev. owner used electric in summer, furnace in winter for HW supply.
4. kitchen & laundry are 90ft away from HW source, therefore, I waste volumes of 'wasted' HW as the HW cools in the piping when not in use. The pipes are foam insulated but....

Ideas:
1. replace furnace (no coil) with an indirect HW unit.
2. keep the electric 50 gal HW heater but relocate it under & near the kitchen/laundry appliances. Instead of piping CW supply to the electric HW heater, pipe in the HW from the indirect HW heater, making the electric unit somewhat of a 'point of use' unit. Im thinking this will cut back on electricity usage. As a back-up, pipe in the CW to the electric unit via cross-over in case the indirect heater or furnace is not working.
3. Furnace makes: considering Slantfin, Burnham, Weil Mclean. Beckett burner

Advice needed:
1. Currently have one TACO circulator for 3 zones, should I put a TACO for each zone?
2. The electric HW heater is as basic as it gets. Instead of heating water that will not be used in the middle of night, is there any programmable 'brain' box available to control line voltage, for when there is HW demand.
3. Can anyone suggest a safe way of getting the furnace down the basement hatch since the delivery truck driver doesnt?
4. I dont want to order an oversized furnace, but if I expand my living space in the house, I would need to heat it, therefore, how could I get the most use of an oversized furnace without wasting fuel? Changing nozzles?

I would be installing all myself, electrical and plumbing is not a problem for me.
 
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Old 04-18-11, 11:36 PM
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1. Air handlers are a good choice (or fan coils)
2. great plan. should cut down on your electrical to heat that water
3 all good makes... find a good installer in your area. Make sure he has gone to the factory training and he stocks parts for his line of boilers
1. That is a hard question to answer, but Pumps eat electricity. Zones valves don't as much.
 
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Old 04-19-11, 01:00 AM
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Hi welcome. You will get alot of advice here. I will try to answer my opinions on what you should do for efficiency and comfort.

Ideas:
1. replace furnace (no coil) with an indirect HW unit
You are talking a hot water boiler correct?

Fist thing is to get a heat loss calculation of the home. Your current system is most likely oversized. Once you do this then you can decide how many BTU boiler you need to install. Dont just throw in the same BTU you have there now. This will make your oil usage as efficient as possible.

2. keep the electric 50 gal HW heater but relocate it under & near the kitchen/laundry appliances. Instead of piping CW supply to the electric HW heater, pipe in the HW from the indirect HW heater, making the electric unit somewhat of a 'point of use' unit. Im thinking this will cut back on electricity usage. As a back-up, pipe in the CW to the electric unit via cross-over in case the indirect heater or furnace is not working.
My take on an oil burner is that a indirect heater will run your boiler in the summer months. If you do not have a high demand for HW then its a waste of money. Electric probably will be cheaper. I always like to sugges heat pimp HWH. If you run on heat pump only you can cut your HWH electric use by 1/2 or more. This is one I like that comes in 40 or 50 gal.

Rheem Hybrid Electric Water Heater Featuring Heat Pump Technology

Also for your 90ft run I would suggest a retro fit pump. You set the timer on the pump for times you think you will use HW at the far locations. That is one type below. They have them at the home stores.

https://www.wattspremier.com/product...ulating-System

Also this one you push a button when you want HW.

Water Heaters and Tankless Water Heaters Work Better With a Chilipepper Hot Water Demand Pump System

3. Furnace makes: considering Slantfin, Burnham, Weil Mclean. Beckett burner
I would have to go one of the moderators advice NJTroopers recommends the Burnham MPO. 87% eff. Cant beat that for oil. But you wont know what size to put in until you do a heatloss calculation.

http://www.usboiler.burnham.com/prod...o-iq/index.php

1. Currently have one TACO circulator for 3 zones, should I put a TACO for each zone?
Keep the zone valves. Less electric, flow contols, etc....

2. The electric HW heater is as basic as it gets. Instead of heating water that will not be used in the middle of night, is there any programmable 'brain' box available to control line voltage, for when there is HW demand
There are timers you can install. I believe that leaving them on is better. Does it take more power to reheat the water or more energy to maintain the temp? Thats a big debate but we do set back are t stats to save energy correct? But thats in a house. This is a insulated storage vessel.

Electronic Water Heater Timers | Intermatic, Inc.

4. I dont want to order an oversized furnace, but if I expand my living space in the house, I would need to heat it, therefore, how could I get the most use of an oversized furnace without wasting fuel? Changing nozzles?
You will need the oil guys to answer this one. From what I read if you but a bigger boiler and put in a smaller nozzle then you are defeating the purpose of the size of the boilers fire box.

How much are you going to expand? How many square ft? You would need to add that variable to your overall heat calculation. You might be at a point where you will install a slightly larger boiler because of the limited sizes that are made. Say your heat loss is 55K btu but the only boiler they have is a 65K. then there is your extra 10K btu for expansion.

I hope I helped you some. Good luck.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 04-20-11, 02:27 PM
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mike makes a great point. your boiler will definately be oversized, no if ands or buts. mainly because it was sized for a dhw coil as well as the fact that EVERYTHING was oversized back in the day. 33 years isnt old enough to be involved with the Spanish Influenza (if you think this has nothing to do with heating, look it up, this had everything to do with why boilers were sized so big during that time) but Im sure there have been upgraded insulation as well as better windows and doors. you can use a manual J to determine your heat loss. When you finsih your heat loss calculation you will scratch your head in curiosity at the low amount of heat loss you will actually have. I am also with Mike about the heat pump water heater, cant get much more efficient than that without spending an arm AND a leg. If you also want to save money and are daring enough to take it on, you can install a tekmar outdoor reset control. This control will monitor outside temps and have your boiler put out only what it needs. (If you get a high efficiency WM i believe they already have outdoor reset built in.)
 
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Old 04-20-11, 02:33 PM
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the most efficient boilers are the ones that dont run at all or the ones that run non-stop and maintain a certain temp with no fluctuation (for this you would need a full mod boiler)
 
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Old 04-20-11, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by RDSTEAM View Post
33 years isnt old enough to be involved with the Spanish Influenza (if you think this has nothing to do with heating, look it up, this had everything to do with why boilers were sized so big during that time)
I looked it up and found this: Boiler Sizing By Dan Holohan - MasterPlumbers.com PlumbViews

Very interesting stuff about the flu and living rooms. Also the information about boiler sizing was good as well.
 
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Old 04-20-12, 08:18 AM
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Following up....

Ok, am revisiting the project, couldn't do it last year for several reasons...In any case, I have been researching & studying, measuring twice, etc.

Sizing based on 4 people (2 adults, 2 children) occupying the house with an indoor temp of 68F during the heating season.

Details:
1. House has 1800 sf of heated living space with 111 feet of fin type baseboard. Using a factor of 550 BTU/ft, that's 61,050 BTU max output from all of the baseboard.
2. Heat loss was calculated for the house to be 55,000 BTU/hr. It seems like there is more baseboard capacity than loss, which isn't a bad thing.
3. The old boiler has a Net IBR of 143,000 BTU/hr.
4. Having been making energy saving improvements to the house, repalced 10 of 16 older somewhat drafty doors & windows. Some of these windows were not insulated between the frame & window unit, and have been corrected.
5. It's possible that I will have an additional 400 sf of space added to the heating system in the future, roughly 14,000 BTU additional heating needed

System specs:
1. Pretty deadset on the Biasi B10-4 with Riello burner
2. Keeping the 3 honeywell zone valves and staying with 1 TACO circulator
3. Adding a 40 gallong indirect water heater, have not chose a single one yet but Triangle Tube, Amtroll and Super Stor are on the list. This will add an additional zone valve & circ pump.
4. The exiting chimney is clay lined and doesn't seem to be an issue so am planning on using this instead of direct vent to side of the house
5. Planning on an outdoor temp reset & TACO circ pump control panel.
6. Keeping the electric HW heater piped & wired in, but it will be off and in standby just in case.

My questions:
1. TACO or Grundfos Circ pump? One installer recommends the Grundfos b/c of it's 3-speed settings with automatic control
2. Circ pump to be located on 'high' side or on the 'low' return side of boiler?
3. Should I stay with the clay lined chimey or spring the cash for a stainless steel upgrade with formiclute (sp?) poured around it? Research indicates that the lower flue temps with lead to deterioration of the clay lining.
4. that's all I have...

Does anyone have any input? Am I missing anything or something here? Open to all suggestions. Thanks for reading.
 
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Old 04-20-12, 11:27 AM
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Hello T.T.,

5- 14,000 but's for 400 sq feet is ugly.
Is this proposed addition all glass?
or uninsulated?
My 400-500 sq ft hobby room is almost super insulated aprox averages r30 all around
Observed btu usage at Design of -1 is around 5000 btu's.

1- not a great fit, too bad they don't have a b10 3.5
suggest a good look at the MPO-IQ84

3- no need for a zone valve for the indirect. Just a second pump and a check valve.

4- good, not a good idea to direct vent oil fumes out in the yard

5- hmm. make sure the temps in the tank don't drop into the Legionella zone.

1 Grundfos Alpha!

2 search for "pumping away" for education

3 If needed the SS liner can always be
added later.

IMO you are oversizing the boiler.
Over all as Xiphias would say, it never makes sense to have more boiler than radiation.
I'm not sure what baseboard you have but 450-500 but a ft. is more typical.
Where you are improving the windows, and if you can get the addition down to 20-25 btu's a foot,
then the B-3 would make a better fit.
Biasi's don't hold much water so there is minimal built in buffereing.
You don't what to end up short cycling like crazy in medium cold weather.

Peter
 
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Old 04-20-12, 01:11 PM
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Again the MPO-IQ control has the pre-purge option which uses residual heat first which is included with the control. The boiler can handle two pumps, wo inputs, one heat and one IWH and a plug in ODR control. The other nice feature with th MPO-IQ is it can receive 100f water (others at 130f), lower than all others which make ODR more efficienct, higher fuel savings and no need for boiler protection against boiler condensation.
I like the idea of variable speed pumps with zone valves otherwise us a PDBV.

Take a look at this link and click on options in the left column.
Technical Menu
 
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Old 04-20-12, 06:11 PM
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Thanks for the replies. I need to check my math on that BTU requirement for the 400 sf addition, but the space will be well insulated and tight.

Just thought I'd add to the details here...
A contractor pointed out to me that my outlet manifold is 3/4" with 3/4" zone valves, but each heating circuit is 1/2" and the baseboards have 1/2" connections. The return piping back to the boiler is 3/4". So it's obvious that I have some flow restrictions that are limiting the rate of heat release from the baseboards. Although the house never has a problem heating up in the winter, so I don't plan on scrapping my hot water piping since that would be a huge expense and time suck. If it ain't broke, don't fix it right?

The other thing the contractor pointed out is that having the ODR might be ineffective b/c it's possible that the 1/2" diameter baseboards will need the 180F boiler water, regardless of the outside temp.

Maybe with the B4 being oversized for the house, I could heat a portion of my basement in the future. Or radiant floor heating in the kitchen? Also have a hot tub project in mind so I might need that extra capacity, but it's not immediate.

I wasn't planning on anything but a Biasi, but I will look into the MPO-IQ, thanks for suggesting
 
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Old 04-20-12, 06:55 PM
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So it's obvious that I have some flow restrictions that are limiting the rate of heat release from the baseboards.
That's debateable.
Look at the charts on the Slantfin or Sterling websites.
Baseboard with 1/2 pipe has higher output per foot because the smaller copper pipe allows the aluminum fins to be larger.
How many feet of baseboard are on the longest zone?
A 1/2 inch pipe flowing 2 gallons a minute, (giving a reasonable speed of 2.6 feet per second) at a 25 degree drop, will deliver 30,000 btu's.

Peter
 
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Old 04-22-12, 08:17 AM
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I used that Hess Energy Calculator, which by the way is awsome - saves a bunch of time doing the math & unit conversions.

So if Im paying on avg. $3.64/gal heating oil, the electrical equivalent is $0.088/kwhr & with my current utility rate at $0.099/kwhr, does it pay to stick with the electric water heater? The diff. is $0.011

I know the recovery rate is different but we are pretty conservative in the house with water consumption and I don't have any leaks of any kind. If I do install an indirect, yes my elecricity bill will reduce, but then I will burn heating fuel through the year and paying the saved electrical costs on oil.

Unless, efficiency is a factor, can anyone enlighten me? Im trying to do the math here by utilizing my old thermodynamics education (but it's dusty)
 
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Old 04-22-12, 02:22 PM
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If i could get electricity for $0.099, i'm pretty sure i would convert to an electic boiler!
Ya', definately keep the electric water heater!!!!!!
According to the calculator i use it is already far cheaper than 3.64 oil at 85%.

Peter
 
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Old 04-26-12, 12:45 PM
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Ok, I reviewd my heat loss figures by using a different calculator than the 1 I initially used. When comparing figures, I noticed that the 55k BTU/hr figure didn't have the heat loss through floor factored in. Now I have about a heat loss of 85k. So the Biasi is out unfortunately, there is no inbetween 3.5. Im looking now at the Buderus again, and as suggested, the Burnham MPO.

I like that pre-purge function that utilizes the residual furnace heat before the burner fires again. My only question with regard to this is if this is an additional IQ function card or is this part of its standard control features?The Buderus doesn't seem to have this feature, unless the Logamatic takes care of this as well.

I also reworked the math and it turns out that an indirect water heater is indeed more cost effective than operating an electric unit

So, the options for now:
1. Buderus G115/3 with S120 32 gal HW maker
2. Burnham MPO IQ 84 with ?? What's a good match Weil McLain/Triangle? Tank in tank design or coil in tank design? Is the S120 a good fit?
 
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Old 04-26-12, 12:50 PM
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I goofed my figures - it's more like $0.18 to .25/kwhr. Initially, I used the kwhr rate, instead of taking the delivery/supplier total # divided by the total kwhrs consumed. So the actual rate is much greater.

Just like measuring twice before cutting once, check your math twice before making a big purchase.
 
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Old 04-30-12, 07:10 AM
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Looks like the Burnham MPO-IQ is the choice. Going with the 36 gal Triangle Tube unit b/c I like the idea of the low-head design - can use a more efficient circ pump. Installation is planned within the next 2 weeks.

this question is for rbeck:
on the tech. website you linked in a previous post, there are various control wiring options for the MPO-IQ, but one example only shows a maximum of 2 t'stat zones without the SR relay panel. I have 3 zones now, with the possibility of going to 4 (not including indirect water heater), plus an extra circ. pump. In this case, would I need to expand the controls with a ZVC or SR Control?
 
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Old 04-30-12, 07:13 PM
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Yes a multi-zone relay will be needed for any installation beyond two pumps. Depending if you use zone valves or pumps is up to you.
My opinion would be if you use zone valves still use a separate pump on the indirect. The boiler will be able to handle the indirect tank aquastat and pump without going through the multi-zone relay. If using zone valves I also would not use a relay just wire the end switches to T-T on the OCP panel. If using Taco zone valves just pay attention to he wiring of the Taco zone valves from those drawings. Are going to install the ODR card? Make sure you turn on PP on the aquastat as it will save you about 10% or more during the heating season.
 
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Old 04-30-12, 08:00 PM
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Yes, going with the ODR card. For the record, the zone valves are Honeywell 4-wire type end switch.

Looks like the MPO IQ aquastat is a card option. So, in this case, all 3 card slots will be occupied; ODR, Lo-C/O, Aquastat. Just curious, if there are any alternatives?

Zone Pump - instead of having valves with 1 pump, just have pumps for each zone.
 

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Old 08-28-12, 05:04 PM
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ok, had to leave town for awhile and back now, revisiting the project.

the burnham unit & biasi unit

two supply houses keep telling me "you're heating a shack with a 4-section biasi" that I would need a b10-5 which has a net IBR=108k btu.

my heat loss is around 85-90k btu's, am planning on future sq-ft expansion at some point.
i know water heater demands are not factored into boiler sizing, but am going with the Bud S120 @ 32 gal.

house is ranch, 35 yrs old, replaced all windows with good U factors, R19 batts in walls and above ceiling, 1825 sq ft (+400 expansion), B-5 is too much, no? B-4 or MPO 85k is better size.

fyi, B10 comes with the hydrolevel energy saving control, which has a pre or post purge function to utilize heat remaining in the boiler before firing.

location, northwest connecticut, +2F outside design temp.

decisions, decisions...
 
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Old 08-28-12, 07:16 PM
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well gents, got everything i need to know to do this job, starting the install tomorrow, friend of mine leant to me his rigid pro-press crimping tool. will post pics when it's all done. thanks for the sound advice !
 
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Old 08-31-12, 09:38 PM
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Sneak preview...

Had a plumber, young kid, install the plumbing instead, as much as i wanted to, i just don't have the time esp. w/ a baby due in the next few days - but I did all the wiring. Burner tech comes in Monday to tune & fire up the Riello burner.
 
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Old 09-01-12, 07:05 PM
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Very nice! Looks like the 'kid' did a good job!

I'm not real crazy about the way the oil line comes down from the ceiling though... subject to vibration, etc... might it be possible to run a vertical piece of wood... or something to strap it to?
 
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Old 09-01-12, 08:04 PM
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the vibration is a valid point, but the floor joists are 2x12 spaced 24", hopefully it will not transmit the harmonics to the tubing. once the burner is tuned, i plan on adding some additional bracing then. thought the boiler/burner package would have come with a flexible fuel line. anyone know where to source one?

the 'kid' and i are going to review the baseboard piping supply/return lines and possibly retrofit with 3/4" pex from the 1/2" copper tubing, to enhance water flow and keep the pumps from overloading.

the Hydrostat 3250 is mounted on the right side of the boiler, it would have been nice to mount it on the control board but it was supplied with a 24" lead on the probe, although there are kits for longer thermistor leads, i think it's good enough where it is.
 
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Old 09-01-12, 08:31 PM
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You're talking about the flex lines from where the filter is located, over to the burner so you can swing open without removing fuel line?

Is this what you're looking for?


image courtesy patriot-supply.com

Patriot Supply - S220-36

Patriot has the various fittings and adapters you would need to hook these up as well. Their search engine leaves a bit to be desired, you need to know what you are looking for to start with! Let me know if you need any help with that.

Try " S220* " in the search box.

Where is your oil tank in relation to the burner? Above? Below? inside ? outside ? underground (shudder the thought!)

You might think about adding a 'Tiger Loop' to the system...
 
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Old 09-02-12, 07:26 AM
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That's right! for quick boiler front opening/closing with minimal labor.

oil tank is about 15 feet away, on same level inside the basement. it's a single fuel line coming from bottom of tank, up and over, down then to the filter > burner. heard of the tiger loop, haven't researched it's function yet.

thnx for finding that, i had no luck w/ google.
 
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Old 09-02-12, 09:18 AM
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Tiger Loop is an oil de-aerator and is often a 'must' when running the oil line overhead. What can happen with overhead lines is that air gets trapped and can cause firing problems. Also, the 'vacuum' that is produced in the line because of the 'lift' can sometimes cause the oil to 'out gas' and create bubbles (probably not with only a couple feet of lift though).

In addition to the TL, think about using a spin-on pleated oil filter. They have models of the TL that combine the TL and the filter as one unit. You could mount this setup to the jacket on the side of the boiler, run the fuel line back and then up to get it out of the way, and the flex lines (you need TWO with the TL and convert the pump to a 2 pipe between the TL and the burner) over to the burner.

Research also an ' Oil Safety Valve ' ... it's possible for an oil leak at the burner end to siphon the tank. An OSV will prevent this because it automatically closes the fuel line in the absence of pump suction.

Patriot Supply -

I have the one with the filter attached, but I see that it appears that Patriot doesn't sell that one anymore, $0.00 price! Or, maybe they just don't sell it 'bundled' with the filter ? The item PRV-38P appears to be the OSV with filter mount, less the filter.

Here's how mine is set up:



This is 'close' to the boiler, about 6' away. Most people recommend the felt filter to be at the tank, and the pleated at the burner. The 'hanger' is a shelf bracket drilled for the U-bolt that clamps the steel pipe between the two filters. The gauge is a vacuum gauge that monitors filter condition. [edit: the gauge is not mounted in this pic! Must have been before I added that. It is mounted on the outlet side of the OSV, in the 'gauge/bleed' port hole on top]

Here's how I mount the TL:



An aluminum plate is screwed to the boiler jacket and the bracket for the TL screwed to that. [edit: another work in progress pic, there is no oil line feeding the TL yet!]
 
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Old 09-05-12, 10:46 AM
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ok, fired her up today. all is well, burner tech made only 1 very slgiht adjustment on the air setting. kind of bumbed, considering that's all it needed, this burner was practically tuned right out of the box.

skipped the TL for now, we'll see what happens during the heating season, can always add it later on. but i did securely fasten the filter and got a flex hose.

plenty of hot potable water too. the electric is turned off and valves shut.

another project scratched of the 'to do' list.

thnx for the help and input guys. this went very well!
 
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Old 09-05-12, 10:56 AM
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the electric is turned off and valves shut
Be careful with this!

If the tank was hot when shut off, as the tank cools a vacuum will be created and could actually crush the tank.

Vice versa, if you accidentally turn on the electric with the valves shut... K A B O O M ! (OK, maybe an exaggeration because pressure relief valve should alleviate major problem, but still...)
 
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Old 09-05-12, 03:41 PM
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Trooper, yer sharp! but i should have been more specific too...

i bled off the pressure from the relief & drained a little off the bottom, also have a red tape 'lockout' on the breaker as a reminder.
 
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Old 09-05-12, 08:25 PM
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time for troubleshooting

im sure i need to figure out all the nuances of this new system, especially the controls.

took a shower and the hot water ran out, checked all the sinks, same thing
the hot water out pipe on IDWH is cold. the zone pump wasn't running, the boiler temp as indicated on the Hydrolevel was 190F. a TACO SR504 exp
zones 1-3 are thermostats (digital honeywell types, zone 4 is for the IDWH. Circ pumps are installed for each zone.

measured the voltage at the aquastat and turned the dial, no change
i had my wife activate all thermostats where the "heat on" signal would come on, while i measured with a meter at each respective point in the zone panel - no changes

other checks:
each fuse in the zone panel is good
burner fires automatically

everything worked fine earlier today when fired initially.
need to calm down~
 
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Old 09-06-12, 08:25 AM
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broken Hot to the 504 power supply

need to put a bigger switch box, all the wiring in there is a little cramped and the strain broke the wire off.

false alarm, folks
 
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Old 09-06-12, 03:18 PM
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Best to check electrical codes when doing electric work. There are sections on ' box fill ' that dictates how many conductors are allowed in various size boxes...

Glad nothing major!
 
  #33  
Old 09-13-12, 09:41 AM
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Trooper, checked some NEC stuff, and fitted a double gang box with red switchplate

Today officially wraps up the project - the old boiler has been removed, a gent who specializes in restoring & selling wood burning boilers has removed it. He came equipped with lever bars, pipes to roll it to the hatch and a crane on his flat bed truck. It was safely hauled away. I gave him the AFG burner and got $50for it.
 
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  #34  
Old 09-13-12, 03:11 PM
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Sad to see her go I bet... I've gotta move my old one from the side of the garage so I don't see it every time I go in/out. We had some good times together in spite of how much I hated her!
 
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