Riello and TigerLoop and Thread Types

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Old 04-24-11, 05:41 AM
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Riello and TigerLoop and Thread Types

I am trying to visualize the connections without having any of the pieces in front of me and with only minimal information available on the suppliers' websites.

The Riello installation manual says (pp. 11-13):

  • All pump port threads are British Parallel Thread...(p. 11)
  • Connect the Pipe Connector to the supply port...(p. 12)
  • To adapt oil line to burner pipe connector, use the 1/4" female NPT adapter (p. 11)
  • And for dual-pipe mode: attach the required piping [i.e. from the tank] to the two pipe connectors using the NPT/METRIC ADAPTERS that are supplied with the burner (p. 13)
If the supply and return ports are BSPP thread, then the pump-side end of the Pipe Connector is male BSPP and since an NPT/METRIC adapter is required, the tank-side end of the Pipe Connector must be a metric thread. Is it a metric male flared?

So the NPT/METRIC adapter is 1/4" NPTF and a female metric flare on the pump side?

I see that the TigerLoop was developed in Sweden and introduced here in the US by Westwood. Does the TigerLoop sold in the US have 1/4" FNPT ports, or are adapters required for it too?


I checked the Westwood TigerLoop FAQ and the TigerLoop Piping Diagram but in neither location is there any information about the thread design. The diagram does show flared connectors pump-side but no connectors on the TL. Perhaps the rule of thumb in the industry is: in the absence of any indication to the contrary, assume NPT?
 
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Old 04-24-11, 06:59 AM
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The Tigerloop is 1/4" FNPT. With your burner came all the adaptors needed. If they are no longer on site, the installer of the Tigerloop will need to supply them. Any contractor who routinely works on Riello burners should have them on the truck. If not they should be on the shelf of the local HVAC supply houses, provided they stock Riello.
 
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Old 04-24-11, 06:31 PM
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Thanks for confirming that the TL is 1/4" FNPT.
 
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Old 04-26-11, 05:53 AM
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connecting filter to Fire-O-Matic

I don't know if the technician who will show up is an old hand at making flared connections, or a newbie. I've also read a thread here on the forum about a guy who was trying to track down a leak who eventually found a bad flare, and I've also read that it is very difficult to locate an air leak in a fuel line. So, if possible, I'd prefer to have everything ready-to-go for the tech, using components that have passed a factory QC process.

With NJ Trooper's help, I've ordered online:
  • the TigerLoop with a Fire-O-Matic valve
  • Riello supply and return Pipe Connectors (both, in case the original supply connector threads were mangled--lots of greenish oxidation visible there now)
  • two Riello flex hoses
  • bypass plug to turn pump into supply/return mode

I was told by the e-tailer that the Riello hoses connect directly to the Riello Pipe Connectors without the need for the metric adapter; so I'm assuming the Riello flex hoses have a metric thread to mate with the Pipe Connector and a 1/4 NPT thread to mate with the TigerLoop. It's very aggravating to find the crucial dimensions of a component missing from its description on an e-tailer's website I design data-driven websites for a living so maybe I get more aggravated by this missing information than the average bear. 3D pictures are great, guys, but accurate and complete descriptions are necessary too.

Hopefully, the only connections that remain to be made are between the oil filter and the Fire-O-Matic:



Is there something like a 12" copper tube with the correct end-connectors for use with the TL kit, when used with the Fire-O-Matic it ships with and a pre-existing filter, as in the diagram? Or do technicians always fabricate this connection ad hoc on the spot?

Thanks
 
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Old 04-26-11, 07:53 AM
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The line between the filter & Tigerloop is field fabricated unless: (1) You bought the Tigerloop Ultra, in which case the Tigerloop & filter are a combination unit, or (2) you use another (MPT x MPT) flex line.
 
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Old 04-29-11, 06:50 AM
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woulda coulda shoulda

I would have done it myself had I known that the connection between filter and the TigerLoop didn't have to be flex copper but could be a flex hose.

I could have done it myself because no field-fabrication of a flared copper tube was necessary and the installation is straightforward.

I should have done it myself because the service company billed at $160/hour.

The tech did not have on his truck a straight flare adapter to make the connection between the flex hose and the Fire-O-Matic and had to use a 90-degree angled flare adapter instead. But that not a problem with the flex hose. He would not have been able to create a clean copper-tube connection between the filter and the Fire-O-Matic --at least not the pretty U-shaped copper connection shown in the TigerLoop installation pamphlet.

Sorry for the blurry photo -- but my eyes had tears in them when I saw the invoice.





 
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Old 04-29-11, 03:53 PM
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Why a "Bio" ?

Learn sumpin every day! Appears that this is a 'new' product for them, and is compatible with bio-fuels in addition to #2 . And it's all metal construction, unlike the other models which have a plastic dome where you can see the fuel inside.

So please, tell us that this has solved the problem !
 
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Old 04-29-11, 06:11 PM
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did it solve the problem?

Although the problem of the delayed ignition is solved, I cannot say with certainty that the TigerLoop is the hero of the day. But I have good reason to conclude that TigerLoop is the hero of the day.

The tech(s) [there were two -- it was a mentor/protégé scenario] also brought a draft meter, and adjusted the damper, and a combustion analyzer, and they tweaked both the pump pressure and the Riello's air-fin. They "dialed it in" big-time.

But "tweaked" is the operative word. The distance they moved the air-fin was minuscule, maybe 1/4 notch. And the distance they turned the pump screw was minuscule, maybe from 12 o'clock to 2 o'clock. But I am an ignoramus. Maybe these are large differences in the world of high-efficiency? In any case, the resulting difference in the combustion analyzer resulted in a fraction of a percent of overall efficiency, 87.0% versus 87.3%, and a few parts per million of the bad molecules.

You decide.

But the delayed ignition problem is over.

I concluded after having closed off the air-fin a few days ago, from 4 down to 3 (less air in the mixture) and then seeing the delayed ignition problem go away instantly, that my oil was "foamy" -- lots of suspended air bubbles. The mentor tech tried to tell me there was a lot more going on when you close the air-fin than simply reducing the amount of air in the fuel-air mix. There was some special kind of air-swirling going on. But I'm skeptical. A skeptical ignoramus?

A self-installed TigerLoop would have cost me $125. A straight-A-on-Angies-List service-company-installed TigerLoop cost me about $300.

Now, if that were the bottom line on the invoice, I could (almost) rejoice. But they also serviced the hot water tank and billed me for $160 for the hour it took to drain (during which time they could have been installing the TigerLoop but didn't--we shot the breeze) and for the additional 30 minutes it took them to rinse the insides down with my garden hose and then do a visual inspection of the sacrificial anode.

They also billed me 1 hour to dial in the burner, and 3/4 hours to listen to me describe (in about 2 minutes) how I'd like a backflow-preventer and a SpiroTrap installed on the unit. Sorry, I forgot, I also pointed out some sediment on the DHW steel supply nipple which suggested to me maybe some galvanic corrosion at a critical location--criticial because the nipple is welded. They said not to worry about it. Ca-ching! Another 30 minutes.

All in all, a big hit to my wallet ($560), and another reason for me to keep visiting the doityourself forum.

My sincere thanks for the help provided here. I was actually better prepared to do the install than the tech: I already knew that the bypass plug went into the Return port, whereas he was reading the TigerLoop pamphlet for the first time.

What a racket.

P.S. Why a Bio? Just in case.
 

Last edited by tr888; 04-29-11 at 06:27 PM.
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Old 04-30-11, 05:38 AM
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Sounds like they did a first class job but I have a problem with their charging for (presumably) 2 techs when the job certainly does not justify 2 people especially when one was what would seem to be a trainee. It would also seem they are a flat rate company who charge by what "the book" says a job should take laborwise. I do suggest you call the service manager, express your concerns, and ask for an adjustment in the labor rate.

The tech was not blowing smoke when he was talking about more than just the change in the air/fuel mixture.
 
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Old 05-01-11, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Grady View Post
Sounds like they did a first class job but I have a problem with their charging for (presumably) 2 techs when the job certainly does not justify 2 people especially when one was what would seem to be a trainee. It would also seem they are a flat rate company who charge by what "the book" says a job should take laborwise. I do suggest you call the service manager, express your concerns, and ask for an adjustment in the labor rate.
I checked. They charge $160/hour standard labor charge. The "seasoned" tech was the manufacturer's rep attending on a "goodwill" mission, presumably because I had given the service manager advance warning that I'd be very ticked off if they showed up not knowing how to perform the requested tank service, or lacking the proper tools for the job, because that had happened to me two years ago with one of their main competitors. I don't think they'd ever serviced the indirect tank and weren't sure of how to remove the anode for the visual inspection or how to take the micro-amp reading after it was reinstalled.

Originally Posted by Grady View Post
The tech was not blowing smoke when he was talking about more than just the change in the air/fuel mixture.
I'd have paid a little extra for some on-the-job punning.

It' my own dumb fault for not checking their rates beforehand. I simply assumed they'd be around $100 hour since other companies in the county are charging $89/hr to $100/hr. And they had gotten straight-A on AngiesList -- many, many reviews. Live and learn.

My major complaint, and I think it's valid, is that they could have installed the TigerLoop while the indirect tank was draining. That could have saved me about $160.
 
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Old 05-01-11, 06:17 PM
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WOW!!! 160 clams an hour. Certainly not the labor rates in my neck of the woods. Around here you'd get 2 hours, or close to it, for $160.
I agree they should have done the Tigerloop while the tank was draining. Bet ya won't be calling that service company back any time soon. I know I sure wouldn't.
 
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