Can we put a water tank in, instead of using the tankless Weil Mclain oil burner

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Old 04-27-11, 06:57 AM
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Can we put a water tank in, instead of using the tankless Weil Mclain oil burner

Currently in the process of purchasing a two family with existing oil burners (one newer tankless Weil Mclain) with steam radiators. The oil history is very high and we think it may be that the burner runs all summer to heat the hot water. Is it a difficult conversion to add in the water tanks? There is gas coming in the home and plan to change to gas in the future, but didn't want to do it right away.

any help appreciated
 
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Old 04-27-11, 07:09 AM
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Hi.

Without going into details, and since there is gas in the home, it will be cost effective to put in a gas tank water heaters.

Even though your not changing the boilers you should invest and run the proper size gas lines to accommadate the new boilers, and heaters. Pipeing for just the HWH's will be cheaper, but you will have to go back and redo it when you install the boilers.


Mike NJ
 
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Old 04-27-11, 07:29 AM
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Even running all summer to provide hot water, I would suspect the high fuel use is more related to the building, thus don't expect a huge savings for making the switch. There are some basic energy programs that will tell you if the building is low, medium, or high for energy use. The change could still help, just keep going for other improvements as well.

Bud
 
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Old 04-27-11, 07:32 AM
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The direct fired tank water heater will be cheap to install, but will have to be replaced. If you go with an indirect off the boiler, it will last many times longer than the direct fired water heater. It is also more efficient once you install your gas boiler. You will be able to use it on the new boiler with no trouble. Converting your current boiler is possible.

Bud is right about the building being the most likely culprit of energy use. The amount of money spent on an indirect will probably go farther to save energy if used on insulation. Investigate those needs before you plunk down on the water heater.
 
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Old 04-27-11, 03:47 PM
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Thanks for the replies. We will look into further insulating and may even do the gas changeover sooner than later. It's a shame because the Weil Mclain was installed in 2006.
thanks again
 
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Old 04-27-11, 05:14 PM
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You should see what replies you get about possibly leaving the boiler and just changing the burner. There are alot of oil guys here that know the specifics of this type of thing. It will probably be cheaper option.

I see no reason to change a 2006 boiler. ( your talking boiler correct with a tankless coil? What make and model boilers and age?)

Lets get the info on what units are actually there? How many baths in each home? Will there be high demand for hot water?

Mike NJ
 
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Old 04-27-11, 05:53 PM
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I would suggest doing incremental changes... why trash a 2006 boiler? Wait on that until you do the insulation improvements, etc.

The best couple hundred bucks you could spend would be on a REAL building energy audit. This will pinpoint the areas that would give you the most bang for the buck. Typically the first place to start would be to bring the attic insulation up to something like R-40.

Only after you have gotten the building as energy efficient as it can be should you think about the heating equipment, etc.

Yes, oil is expensive and getting more so, but so is gas! There's really no reason to think that just changing the boiler to gas vs oil is going to save you that much... there's nothing inherent in a gas boiler that makes it any more energy efficient than oil... UNLESS you replace it with a 'mod/con'... and the payback on that may be longer than you would like.

INSULATION IS FUEL THAT YOU PAY FOR ONCE!
 
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Old 04-27-11, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by NJ Trooper View Post
Yes, oil is expensive and getting more so, but so is gas! There's really no reason to think that just changing the boiler to gas vs oil is going to save you that much...
It's true that both are going up in price, but oil costs more per BTU and is far more volatile in price.

Based on the latest price on NYMEX, heating oil is trading for $3.25 per gallon (138,700 BTU). Natural gas is trading for $.437 per 100,000 BTU. Multiply .437 by 1.387 to compare them based on BTU's and natural gas would cost $.606 per 138,000 BTU.
 
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Old 04-27-11, 08:01 PM
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Thanks for that... I guess I didn't realize there was that much difference...

but I'm a bit skeptical of those numbers because what you are saying is that if I spent $1500 on oil this past winter, I could have heated my home the entire winter for about $280 ?

I just don't see how that's possible! You sure you done the cipherin' rightly?
 
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Old 04-27-11, 09:57 PM
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Trooper, Its .74 a therm here in NJ

Plus add the delivery charge. Thats billed at .53 a therm

Plus a residential charge every month of $8.00

So 1.02 for 138K btu. 1.02X 461(your use)= 470

Delivery .73 for 138K btu. .73 X 461 = 337

So $807 plus the $8 bucks x6 months ==== $855 yr

You will save $645 a yr.

If you put a new boiler in it will take 8 yrs to recoup the cost, if the boiler cost $5000, and gas stays the same price.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 04-28-11, 05:19 AM
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This is a two family house (built around 1900-1920) first floor apartment has 3 big rooms/ and a giant bathroom. The boiler is the Weil Mclain PSGO-3 tankless 86,000 btu (2006). The second floor apartment has 5 rooms and two additional bedrooms on the third floor. That boiler is H.B. Smith BB14 boiler (1985?) tankless.. These are steam radiator systems. The house has new double pane windows and can see full insulation in the eaves and down on the cellar ceiling, but don't know the thickness. This year the gas company is offering a 50% off boiler price as an incentive to switch over, good until Dec 31,2011.
 
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Old 04-28-11, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by NJ Trooper View Post
I just don't see how that's possible! You sure you done the cipherin' rightly?
I think I did, but I have been known to make errors. Those are wholesale prices and don't reflect any kind of delivery charges. Right now I'm looking at $1.27 per therm delivered to my house. A therm is roughly 100,000 BTU. Up until April 7, I have used 82,800 cu ft of gas at 1,028 BTU per cube. That's 85,118,400 BTU's and about 851 Therms. So a total of $1,080 to heat my house and hot water. If you supply an average price for oil that you have been paying, maybe we can see what that would look like for comparison.
m
 
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Old 04-28-11, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by lawrosa View Post
You will save $645 a yr.
That oil price does not include delivery charges either.
 
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Old 04-28-11, 07:15 AM
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That was about the price here in NJ for oil delivered. $2.86 gallon delivered was the last I saw for COD. That was January some time.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 04-28-11, 09:07 AM
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Yeah. That would be different. The price that is trading now is for June delivery. The natural gas was for May delivery.

Based on $2.86 a gallon for oil, it would have cost me $1,755.


This is where I checked the pricing: Commodities - Gold prices, Silver prices and more from CNNMoney.com

At the top they have a neat tool where you can compare prices of different commodities over a 1 month or 1 year period. Oil has a shown a sharp increase over the last year compared to gas.
 
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Old 04-28-11, 09:13 AM
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Based on $2.86 a gallon for oil, it would have cost me $1,755.

Thats alot. My whole house runs about $1092 for the yr. Gas boiler,HWH,stove,dryer. Budget $91 a month. And I am still looking for a way to get better eff. out of my old Hydrotherm.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 04-28-11, 09:32 AM
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Nice. That is just from Sept through the beginning of April for me. My budget is $131.
 
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Old 04-28-11, 10:21 AM
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We have no experience with oil and I called for the oil history of the house and the current rate and the oil company said $4.14 per gallon and if you put a credit card on file it's $3.84. That's right outside of Boston
 
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Old 04-28-11, 10:35 AM
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It's probably only going to go up. Things are not looking good for the price of oil right now.
 
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Old 04-28-11, 12:21 PM
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Oil Prices

Hello sweat equity,

4.14 a gallon is a but much. (but sadly, it might not be for very much longer.)
In any case, being in New England you might find this website extremely useful:
New England Oil Prices


Peter
 
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Old 04-28-11, 02:01 PM
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Thank you Peter! Just checked it out. After looking at some of the prices it makes me wonder if that oil company was price gouging a new customer!
 
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Old 04-28-11, 02:27 PM
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NJ prices at one joint around here. Thats crazy.

Sprague's Oil - Oil Heat - Matawan, NJ 07747 (serving Monmouth County, Middlesex County, and Ocean County)

But here is a cash guy in the area. Big difference.

https://secure.codoil.net/order/prices.asp

Mike NJ
 
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Old 04-28-11, 02:32 PM
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We've got a few suppliers here in NJ that typically charge 50 to 60 cents more than the COD price. I don't know if it's 'gouging', but people seem to gladly pay the price. They ARE 'full service' companies, so you also are paying a premium for the fact that they will show up when you have no heat at 3 AM on Christmas Eve... try getting that out of a maverick COD company!
 
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Old 05-02-11, 09:21 AM
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My dinosaur 6-section boiler averages about 1 gallon of No. 2 fuel oil per day for hot water production for two adults. I doubt that a 3-section Weil McLain is consuming much more than that just for hot water production...assuming the hot water demands aren't excessive.

If you are concerned with the heating costs, I would take a look at the building envelope like the others have mentioned...but also have a "steam pro" look at your steam system. Things like uninsulated pipes, defective vents, wrongly pitched pipes, mis-adjusted pressuretrols, etc, can really contribute to high fuel consumption.

If you are exploring the use of NG conversion burners on the existing boilers, make sure you measure the amount of steam radiation connected to each boiler and determine if the boilers are appropriately sized.
 
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