Circulator pump.


  #1  
Old 08-28-11, 03:22 PM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 26
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Circulator pump.

Does the circulator pump off a furnace instantaneously kick on when the blower is initiated?
 
  #2  
Old 08-28-11, 03:30 PM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 15,984
Received 79 Upvotes on 71 Posts
The pros will let you know shortly.

But are you talking about a heat exchanger in the duct work?

I would think the boiler needs to be up to temp before the HVAC blower comes on. This would insure the coil is hot.

Could be way off but I saw it on a System 2000 by energy kinetics. Thats about all of my experience with this type of system

Mike NJ
 
  #3  
Old 08-28-11, 04:09 PM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 26
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
No ductwork. this is an old fire burning furnace. circulates water to the old cast iron radiators throughout the house. I installed an electric hot water heater to heat my domestic hot water instead of having my furnace burn thru oil in the summer time. Like a moron, I took apart the splicebox which includes circulator, burner motor,t-stat, and low-high limit gage. wired it back up minus the low-high limit. burner kicks on when i raise the temperature on thermostat but circulator does not go on instantaneously. Any help on the subject would be greatly appreciated!!
 
  #4  
Old 08-28-11, 04:14 PM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 15,984
Received 79 Upvotes on 71 Posts
OK. Anything that heats hot water I call a boiler. When you say furnace I think of HVAC unit. Thats the normal terminology.

OK. Can you post the make and model of the boiler?

Any #'s on any controls, like the aquastat?


Some boilers are set to heat to temperature befor the circ kicks on. Othere kick on immeadiatly.

Mike NJ
 
  #5  
Old 08-28-11, 04:48 PM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 26
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Here's what I got.

Crane Sunnyday 5 Boiler
Beckett oil burner - type AFG, AK186891
Honeywell Tripple Aquastat, L6010A3X0A2
Honeywell Series 80 T-Stat, RA89A8K0A1
Taco Cartridge Circulato, 0011-F4
 
  #6  
Old 08-29-11, 04:12 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
Honeywell Tripple Aquastat, L6010A3X0A2
You sure about that number? Please double check.

............. edit .............

OK then, your system is probably about as old as I am, that's why I couldn't find reference for your aquastat in any books... but I did find a little bit about it, and it is very similar, if not functionally the same thing as the L6081A which they still sell.

So if I understand it correctly, you ripped all the wires out and now need to know how to put humpty back together again?
 

Last edited by NJT; 08-29-11 at 04:43 PM.
  #7  
Old 08-29-11, 04:50 PM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 15,984
Received 79 Upvotes on 71 Posts
Trooper he is right... Its older then the hills.


http://www.heatinghelp.com/files/pos...0Aquastats.pdf

Mike NJ
 
  #8  
Old 08-29-11, 04:56 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
To answer (and rephrase) your initial question:

Does the circulator pump off a furnace instantaneously kick on when the blower is initiated?
Did you mean to ask:

Should the circulator pump turn on when the BURNER fires?

If so, then the answer could be EITHER - YES or NO.

Some systems that are known as 'COLD START' systems are wired so that the pump WILL come on as soon as the thermostat calls for heat and the burner fires.

Other systems known as 'WARM START' are wired so that the burner CAN and WILL fire without the pump running in order to keep the boiler warm enough to produce domestic hot water. This is the type of system that you have and with the controls that you have the circulator may in fact NOT run until the boiler gets up to a certain temperature. This I think is what you are seeing there.

There may be a way that you can wire this for a cold start setup... but my head hurts right now and I can't think straight. Maybe later...
 
  #9  
Old 08-29-11, 04:58 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
Hey now! the Hills live down the road and they are WAY older than me!

This PDF:

http://customer.honeywell.com/techli...it/95-6701.pdf

is for the L6081A ... figure 3 might give you some insight on how to wire your system back up...

BUT ---- what you are seeing could well be NORMAL operation for the way your system is designed.

What temperature settings do you have on the 6010 ?
 
  #10  
Old 08-29-11, 05:21 PM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 15,984
Received 79 Upvotes on 71 Posts
Trooper, you did not like my retro manual I found for the 6010?

It has schematics..........LOL

Looks like 1940's, 1950's????

Mike NJ
 
  #11  
Old 08-29-11, 05:39 PM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 26
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Crane

Yes. system IS super old! Yes that is what I meant to ask,"Should the circulator pump turn on when the burner fires?" The temperature settings are 140 low and 160 high. Nowbear with me guys as I may ask some silly questions. does the 6010 trigger the burner to kick on for domestic hot water? which was my understanding, and is why I foolishly took it out of the splice, since I added an electric hot water heater. Now from what i am learning, the 6010 also triggers circulator after the coil heats up? is that right?
 
  #12  
Old 08-29-11, 07:33 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
Yes, it triggers the burner for hot water... but it is ALSO the control that stops the burner from firing when the water gets to temperature... a HIGH LIMIT ... and as such, it is also a SAFETY CONTROL. You can not remove the high limit control or the burner could fire the water to SUPER HOT... Dangerous crazy hot...

The HIGH limit could be set as high as say 180 ... that's pretty much the 'norm'.

The LOW limit is what keeps the boiler warm all the time by firing ONLY the burner when it cools off to the low setpoint. That low limit ALSO disables the circulator in order that the heating of the building won't compete with heating the domestic water.

Let me give a little thought as to how you might be able to rewire to convert to cold start... might be a bit difficult to describe without having ever seen one, and not knowing what the terminals are labeled as... can you post a pic of the inside of the control ?
 
  #13  
Old 08-29-11, 07:34 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
Trooper, you did not like my retro manual I found for the 6010?
No, it was great! I saved it... unfortunately, those schematics are missing some labels!

I think mid to late 50's.
 
  #14  
Old 08-30-11, 02:28 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
Snaxx, I believe that modifying your system for cold start should be an easy wiring change, but describing how to do it will be a challenge...

Can you take pics?
 
  #15  
Old 08-30-11, 05:37 PM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 26
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Circulator pump

NJ, wow learning a lot here. ill have them up asap. Thank you!
 
  #16  
Old 08-30-11, 06:30 PM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 26
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
cant find "attactchments" button when i try to reply with picture?? cant figure how to create album?? LOST!
 
  #17  
Old 08-30-11, 07:21 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
You can't post the pics directly here... set up a free account at Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket and upload the pics there. Come back here and post a link to your PUBLIC album and we can view them. In particular I would like to see a clear shot of the inside of the 6010 control.

I'm going to refer to that figure 3 in the 6081 PDF file for reference... it's going to be up to you to trace out the wires so that you can get the correct ones connected where they need to go...

I would like to know what PRIMARY CONTROL you have on your system. On the Beckett burner, there is a box on top, to the right if you are facing the boiler, above where the motor is... what control is installed there?

Is there a control box attached to your flue pipe also?
 

Last edited by NJT; 08-30-11 at 08:00 PM.
  #18  
Old 08-31-11, 05:13 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
I've got something ready to post, but I'm waiting to hear from ya on my questions, and hopefully view some pics to be sure that my drawing is appropriate for your application.

I also wanted to mention something regarding this modification and possible 'weeping' of the boiler afterward.

It sometimes happens that when a boiler that has spent it's entire long life as a 'warm start' boiler is converted to 'cold start' that when the metal is allowed to cool, small weeping leaks occur. The obvious solution to this is to convert BACK to warm start... which will almost always grow the metal and the weeping will stop.

If you perform these mods, you want to do them in such a way as to be able to easily reverse the modification. I'll explain a bit more when we hear back from ya.
 
  #19  
Old 09-03-11, 05:08 AM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 26
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
DIY pictures by snaxx44 - Photobucket

controll on burner is honeywell. nothing on flu
 

Last edited by Snaxx44; 09-03-11 at 05:27 AM.
  #20  
Old 09-03-11, 08:47 AM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
Standard disclaimers apply... you are using this information with proper warnings!

BE CAREFUL! YOU CAN BE KILLED!

READ AND UNDERSTAND THESE DIRECTIONS BEFORE STARTING!


TURN OFF ALL POWER TO THE BOILER SYSTEM BEFORE WORKING ON THE WIRING!

OK then... this drawing I'm posting is one way that your system MIGHT be wired. You absolutely MUST make sure that you have traced out the wiring and are confident in what you are doing. So BEFORE you start, follow the drawing and compare it to your system to be absolutely sure that it is like this...



full size drawing here --> http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/d...naxxwiring.jpg

The wires I've got colored RED and BLUE in this drawing are not expected to be the wire colors that you have in your system. I've only colored them that way for purposes of the illustration. In fact, it appears the wire I've got colored BLUE on the drawing is actually WHITE in your system, and the wire I've got colored RED on the drawing is actually BLACK in your system.



Maybe add another picture of the inside of your RA89 relay box... perhaps take another shot of the aquastat with a bit better lighting... it's important that we can see the wiring and follow it. Use a lamp or a flashlight if you have to in order to better light the parts... in fact, why not take pics of the burner and any other electrical stuff while you are doing that.

Remember, one slip up and you could easily destroy one or more of these controls in a heartbeat...

and you are working with
120VAC LINE VOLTAGE REMEMBER THIS ALWAYS! YOU CAN BE KILLED!

If you have even the SLIGHTEST DOUBT about what you are doing, or WHY you are doing it, then DON'T DO IT!
 

Last edited by NJT; 09-07-11 at 04:53 PM.
  #21  
Old 09-03-11, 09:03 AM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
IF and only IF you are sure your wiring matches my drawing, you can remove the wire from the " B " terminal on your control and place a wire nut and TAPE on that wire so you can reconnect it if you have to. This is a HOT wire so it must not touch anything else!

Removing the wire on your " B " terminal would prevent the burner from firing to keep the boiler warm all the time. The burner will still fire when needed for a heat call. This step alone would not allow the circulator to run as soon as there is a heat call.

The following steps will take care of the circulator...

There is an ALTERNATIVE choice here... and it is MUCH easier... instead of doing the second step below, simply TURN THE LOW SETTING ALL THE WAY DOWN. Doing this will allow the circulator to start up at a much lower temperature. Turning the circulator on at like 95 should pose no problem at all to heating the home. This would be my choice.

SECOND CHOICE: Hopefully you have enough wire to do the following, and be able to reconnect later if you have to... the wire on the " W " terminal in your control needs to be connected to the wire on the " R " terminal in your control. It is not recommended to place two wires under a screw terminal. They WILL loosen up over time. So don't be tempted to use a jumper wire from W to R , even though that might seem like a good idea. It's not.

Instead, remove the wires on both the B and the R terminals and connect them together with a wire nut and TAPE. Use short pieces of wire to lengthen them if you need to, but always use wire nuts and tape over the wire nuts.


Again, remember this is 120VAC line voltage and you must exercise proper caution!

YOU CAN BE KILLED!
 

Last edited by NJT; 09-03-11 at 09:31 AM.
  #22  
Old 09-03-11, 09:30 AM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
By the way... I would probably raise the HIGH setting a bit. At least 165-170. You can go as high as 180.

What did you do with the domestic water piping to the coil in the boiler?

If you completely disconnected it and capped the pipes on the boiler, please drill a small hole in one of the caps. Or just leave them open. When they are capped, it is possible for pressure to build up in the now closed coil.
 
  #23  
Old 09-03-11, 09:34 AM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 15,984
Received 79 Upvotes on 71 Posts
hey Trooper, if he opts to lower the temp what about the swing setting just below the low temp dial.

Mike NJ
 
  #24  
Old 09-03-11, 10:49 AM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
Hi Mike, I thought about that a bit... presuming that the swing control on his 6010 works the same way as on the 6081 ( I think it does ), then I believe it best to leave it at minimum. Increasing the swing at all would mean that the pump wouldn't start until the boiler was at a higher temp. It would still always STOP at the same temp ( i.e. 100 setpoint minus the fixed 10 swing = 90 ) but adding any more swing would mean it wouldn't START until a higher temp were reached.

If the boiler were to start cold, there might be a couple start / stops of the pump as the system came up to temp, but I think that would be OK...
 
  #25  
Old 09-05-11, 05:26 PM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 26
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Well, not having so much luck here. I have removed the wire from the "B" terminal and capped it. I went with your alternative choice and turned the low setting all the way down. Going by this schematic, I respliced my J-box. my problem now is that when i turn it on, it fires up without me turning the t-stat temperature up. Am I reading this properly? in my J-box I have L2 nuetral with circulator nuetral,burner nuetral,and #2 terminal on switching relay. I have L1 connected with #3 terminal in relay. I have black wire from burner connected with blue wire from aquastat which is landed on the top terminal of high limit(see my pic from earlier).I have red wire from relay terminal 4 connected to red on aquastat and hot wire from circulator. Am confused as to where to connect my white wire from aquastat.
 
  #26  
Old 09-06-11, 03:11 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
I have black wire from burner connected with blue wire from aquastat which is landed on the top terminal of high limit
You now have TWO wires on the top terminal of the high limit? How come? I think that's wrong. OR, maybe I'm reading this wrong... You didn't touch the wiring on the HIGH limit, and the BLUE wire is spliced to the BLACK wire in your J-box?

I think you need to post some more pics... this is what I meant about this going to be a challenge.

I have red wire from relay terminal 4 connected to red on aquastat and hot wire from circulator.
Not clear on this... or this:

Am confused as to where to connect my white wire from aquastat.
Referring back to the schematic, and your pic, it appears that the 'hot wire from circulator' is in fact the 'white wire from aquastat'.

Bottom line is this: You probably didn't need to, and maybe should not have, 'respliced my J-box.' All you should have had to do is lift and cap the wire on the B terminal of the LOW limit, and turn the LOW setting all the way down.

But, before you started any of this, you should have traced all your wiring and made sure that it agreed with the schematic I posted... if it didn't you would have been better off to let me know what you found different...
 
  #27  
Old 09-06-11, 05:10 PM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 26
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Took some more pics (see link below). Hope this helps. I understand removing wire from "b" terminal and turning setting all the way down. My problem from the start is getting that splice box all together again.
 

Last edited by NJT; 09-07-11 at 04:49 PM.
  #28  
Old 09-06-11, 05:19 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
OK, then you should be able to use that schematic... I thought you had it all back together with the exception of the circulator problem you originally asked about... I'll go look at the pics now and get back to ya a bit later.

GREAT! I gotta head out for a bit, but these pics will do the trick I think.

We should be able to get this thing going with what you've shown me here...

Check back later for my answers.
 
  #29  
Old 09-06-11, 05:24 PM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 26
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
DIY pictures by snaxx44 - Photobucket

This one should work! Thanx again!
 
  #30  
Old 09-06-11, 05:43 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
Tie all the WHITE --- EXCEPT --- the one from the aquastat together, and tuck in bottom of box.

Tie the RED LINE IN to the BLACK to the relay.

Tie the RED from the RELAY to the RED from the AQUASTAT

Tie the BLACK from the BURNER to the BLUE from the AQUASTAT

Tie the BLACK from the CIRCULATOR to the WHITE from the AQUASTAT

I typed this real quick, and will be back later to proofread and possibly correct...
 
  #31  
Old 09-06-11, 06:57 PM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 26
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Nice! Seems to have done the trick! I only had it on for about a minute. circulator didn't kick on but that is what it is supposed to do, correct?
it is emitting a funny smell and did notice a little steam coming from the top. is this normal since it has not been turned on since winter?
 
  #32  
Old 09-06-11, 08:05 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
Right... the circulator set up this way will not come on until the boiler reaches about 100 or so, which should not be a problem.

I'm not too concerned about the smell, but that steam you saw has me a little concerned.

Remember what I mentioned about the 'weeping' that may occur? When the sections cool they shrink a bit and can cause some seepage of water... on the other hand though since it's been off the whole summer (I think?) if you haven't noticed any actual dampness around the boiler, you might be OK.

Now, if you should happen to want the circ to come on immediately when the boiler fires up, you can take the white wire from the W terminal and connect it to the RED wires.

One more thing I want to mention... While I think it's a good idea what you did with the crimp lugs, if they are crimped onto SOLID wire, you will likely have the crimps loosen up on that wire. They really are designed for STRANDED wire... also, if they are crimped too tightly, the wire could break where it is squeezed thin inside the lug, so keep your eye on that. Do you own a soldering iron and know how to use it? hint...
 
  #33  
Old 09-07-11, 05:42 PM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 26
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Awesome! Thanx for all yourknowledge! It really helpeda ton!
 
 

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: