Quick question.

I recently had a visit from a weatherization program I applied for some time ago. They evaluated my home yesterday for all areas of energy savings and health/saftey.

First thing they did was install CFL bulbs in every fixture of the home.

Second they did a fan test of the home. With all the windows closed house read a 2000????? Could not really see but going from what he told me. All my windows are 1996, but I have 6 storm windows left from 1950. They are replacing these 6.

Third, and here is my question.

My old Hydrotherm boiler, that I take apart and clean every two yrs or so, read a CO/CO2?? level or 250ppm. Levels from what I was told need to be under 100ppm.
They will be sending someone out to try to clean it to bring the levels down. If they cant then they are autorized to replace with an WM ultra.

I am on a well. The ultra says PH should be 7.0 to 8.5. I have a calcite filter that adjusts the PH to 7.0. I am OK there.

The docs say not to install with a softner. I have a softner.

What should I do there? If I tap in before the softner, but after the PH for the boiler feed my hardness would be at a 7ppm. This is my hardess the last time I tested it right out of the calcite filter. The calcite adds hardness to my water that is only 4 ppm right out of the well. The calcite adds about 3ppm WM manual says anything over 7 consult a treatment specialist...LOL.

Also the ultra comes with a conditioner that you add on install and check yearly. Whats that do? PH? Hardness?

So I am borderline or right on? What can I expect out of the WM in yrs? I hate to give up my hydrotherm. It tested at 85% eff with the snuffer believe it or not. I dont know how reliable that is though.But the guy showed me the gauge.

Should I ask for just a cast iron boiler like the gold series?

This is all no charge to me.

And to note my gas bill for the whole yr is only $924 for 2010 and was $1092 for 2009.

Thanks for your time.

Mike NJ

 

Mike, I can't comment on that particular boiler but any boiler is better off using water from a properly operating water softener.

If I am correct about your Hydrotherm having an atmospheric burner (no draft fan) then it will generally have a higher CO reading than will a boiler with some kind of mechanical draft system. It may be that just cleaning the burner itself will bring the CO down but getting it under 100 may be a problem.

Boiler water should always be decidedly alkaline. Within reason alkaline does no harm but just the slightest amount of acid will cause corrosion to skyrocket. My personal feeling is that a pH of 8.5 should be a minimum with 10 or 11 being the high end. The hardness, while not generally a significant factor in hot water systems (providing no leaks and consequently no make-up water added) would not be a problem at 4 to 7 ppm.

I don't understand, do you mean a "conditioner"? Is this perhaps a stack condensate neutralizer because this is a condensing boiler and has a stack condensate drain?

That 85% efficiency figure is just a combustion efficiency and depending on how it was done it could be fairly bogus.

I can't comment on the cast iron boiler, I prefer steel but I also would use chemical treatment with a steel boiler and that adds complications that most homeowners are not prepared to deal with.

 

Yes atmospheric with cast iron burners.

I will never get it past what the calcite does. It is self adjusting but will adjust no higher then 7.0 I believe.

Are you saying I can come right out of the softner? My hardness reading out of the softner is 0, or 17,1 ml/g. I assume the corrosion issue they speak about is because of the salt....

Sorry. Yes I meant it comes with conditioner. I corrected this in the first post. I assume it treats the water. Have not read the label but I assume it may correct the water chemistry as long as you stay under 7 grains hardness, and 7-8.5 ph. I also assume that if your water is beyond that chemistry the conditioner cant adjust.


I just want to make the right decision when it comes time that they tell me that they are going to install a ultra.
Do I even want a Ultra?

Mike NJ

 

They are going to give you a free boiler? What program is that under?

 

Comfort partners. Used to be Honeywell I believe. If you are on USF that helps pay your utilities you automatically qualify. Not sure of the other guidlines but I did not give them any info except a copy of my utility bills, name and address. They were here two days later.

Ironically I did this work with comfort partners/honeywell, with a company I worked for. And guess who is comeing to install? Yep!! That company and a guy I trained.. Go figure.

Here is the site for all NJ residents.

Comfort Partners | NJ OCE Web Site


Mike NJ

 

I think the 'conditioner' must be a condensate neutralizer. You don't want to dump that acidic condensate down the drain...

 

This is what it is. It comes with every ultra and the new CV 90 from what I read.

http://www.sentinel-solutions.net/pr...100-inhibitor/

But if I get the ultra installed should I feed before softner?

Like I said I am at 7 grains hardness right after my ph fliter and before softner. My ph is 7.0.

Mike NJ

 

This is a boiler water conditioner for cast aluminum boilers. Many mod/con boiler manufacturers would like to see water conditioner in these boilers especially cast aluminum.
Softened water should not be used in boilers. Using water before the water softener is not that bad nor is softened water providing you do not add much make-up water. Chlorides in a boiler or indirect water heater is not a good thing. The limit is 100 ppm in heating systems. We have pockets in this fine country where even stainless steel indirect tanks will look like swiss cheese in less than one year, cast iron steam boilers will last less than 5 years, dependent on amount of fresh water added during the heating season. Be it a water or steam system it all comes down to volume of fresh water. Verify you have a tight system and all is well. Use the water conditioner.

 

This is something I found. Does it hold any value?

http://assets1.harveywatersofteners....n_dec_2010.pdf

Rbeck it does say air is the worst thing for these type boilers. I never had an air issue.

My alkalinity is 140 ppm
PH. 7
( Just thought to self) I need to read more about it but I may fill with the softened water and ditch the inhibitor. It seems from the reading above inhibiters may be the issue.

Mike NJ

 

Found this from that guy also.

http://assets1.harveywatersofteners....simplified.pdf

This from viessman.

Whats Total alkaline earths mol/m3 ???

http://assets1.harveywatersofteners....s/viessman.pdf

German docs 1 and 2

http://assets1.harveywatersofteners....2035_part1.pdf
http://assets1.harveywatersofteners....2035_part2.pdf

Got to love german thinking...real in depth..


Mike NJ

 

Several things to comment on.

First of all, my experience is with larger boilers; commercial and industrial sized equipment. The smallest hot water boiler I had experience with (not counting the baby in my parent's home) was rated at 1.2 million BTUs per hour. Almost all were steel boilers although at my last position before retirement there were three cast-iron sectionals. I don't remember the BTU rating of those CI boilers but physically they were about five feet wide, five feet tall and eight feet long so they were not akin to any residential boilers except in regard to construction. I had almost nothing to do with these CI pigs other than look once or twice a week to see that they were still there.

Even though the municipal water in the Puget Sound basin is mostly from mountain snowmelt and therefore quite low in mineral content (hardness) all of the steam boilers (from 15 psi to 250 psi) used softened water exclusively. As I have previously stated ,with a properly operating ion-exchange (the kind that uses salt to regenerate) softener there is NO increase in chlorides in the water. If you have increased chlorides then you have a problem with the operation of the softener.

The hot water boilers did not have softeners but this is due to (1) the low calcium content of the water, (2) because of low make-up water requirements and (3) internal chemical treatment of the boiler water.

Absolutely the worst thing for a hot water (really, any) boiler is oxygen in the water. Oxygen in hot water boilers comes from the initial filling (and any subsequent fillings after an internal inspection) and the make-up water. Eliminate the oxygen on the initial fill and eliminate make-up and you will have no oxygen corrosion problems. To mechanically remove the oxygen you must raise the water temperature under minimal pressure and vent the air from the highest point of the system. The higher the pressure the more oxygen will stay in solution regardless of the temperature. Obviously this is contrary to how most hot water systems are filled and operated but it is the truth.

Air elimination devices such as are normally installed in residential system (including the Sarco Spiro-vent) will only remove gross amounts of air/oxygen and still leave a significant amount of dissolved oxygen in solution. Luckily, the amount left in solution is used up pretty rapidly in initial corrosion of the system and THAT leaves the system virtually oxygen free. The problem comes when additional (make-up) water is added as that new water is saturated with air. Elimination of ALL leaks is the single most important factor in keeping corrosion at bay in hot water heating systems. I would always specify totalizing water meters on the make-up systems of any hot water heating system under my control and then log the meter readings fairly often to show any usage of make-up water. When there was a usage I sent the crews out looking for a leak, or more often, several small drips.

[Aside. I was in charge of a medium sized high temperature (315 degree design) hot water plant that held something in excess of 80,000 gallons and had roughly 90 million BTU input) When I first saw this plant it was using approximately 800 gallons per day of make-up and going through more than 20 barrels of treatment chemical a year at a cost in excess of $30,000. A few years later and we were down to less than 30 gallons of make-up a day with equally huge savings in chemicals.]


What kind of alkalinity test? The two most common are a "P" alkalinity and an "OH" alkalinity and the two give VERY different results. A "P" alkalinity should be in the neighborhood of 600 ppm and the "OH" in the neighborhood of 350 for proper alkalinity control in steam boilers and only slightly lower for steel hot water boilers. The pH (not PH) should ALWAYS be higher than 7 to preclude the event of the water going acid. Acid corrosion is the second most common (over oxygen corrosion) cause of heating system corrosion.

Seldom does one single treatment chemical treat ALL possible problems in boilers and heating systems and more often than not the single treatments, especially when there are no quantitative tests made to ascertain the level of chemical in the water, are of little use. I notice that the "treatment" specified is of UK origin for whatever that may be worth.

One more thing and I'll retreat to my corner and shut up.

If a manufacturer specifies a certain way their product is to be installed or maintained then that IS what is necessary to maintain the warranty in force. I strongly disagree with the use of "mouse milk" in the boiler and I strongly disagree with not using softened water but I'm not paying for it.

 

Thank you Furd. I value your opinion.

I am not paying for it....but want it to last. Like I said my current boiler is at least 30 yrs or older and lasted this long.

So what you are saying is what I suggested for myself in post #9. If its true then your advice is enough for me.

Also was just a DPD pool kit I test pH and Alk. Hardness I use the Hach 5B hardness test kit to keep tabs on the softner.


Mike NJ

 

This looks like a PITA.

9) Maintenance - YouTube

Mike NJ

 

After watching that video it appears that the Ultra boiler has an aluminum block heat exchanger. As such it is probably best to use the corrosion inhibitor specified by Weil-Mclain.

And yes, it does look like a PITA to service. I'm quite sure that one that has been in service for a year or two won't be anywhere near that easy to take apart, clean and re-assemble. I suspect that for every dime you save in fuel you will end up paying seven cents in maintenance costs. Hopefully I'm wrong about that.

 

And furd, should I feed with softened water then or tap in before the softener?

Also I am wondering if I can finagle this new GV 90+. It has a cast iron heat exchanger with a stainless steel secondary chamber. I am still reading about this one. It still comes with the sentenial 100 goo.

http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multim...0plus_litb.pdf

Mike NJ

 

I think Furd's comment about the warranty is a good one. Even though his advice on what to do is contrary to what the manufacturer says to do, it is a good idea to do what they say to maintain the warranty.

 

Honestly, I don't think I am the one to make any recommendations concerning residential boilers. I do think that whatever boiler you end up getting, assuming that you even DO get a new boiler, should be installed according to the strictest interpretation of the manufacturer's instructions, even if it goes against what I might think of as proper.

I would state that just from reading the blurb about the GV 90+ I would prefer that to the Ultra. Myself, if I were in the market for a residential boiler I would look seriously at the Energy Kinetics System 2000.

 

Well I gues if I do get a boiler I will take my chances. I know I am looking way in the future. But the boiler manual states this.

Water pH between 7.0 and 8.5
1. Maintain boiler water pH between 7.0 and 8.5. Check with
litmus paper or have chemically analyzed by water treatment
company.
I am at 7.0. I fit into thier criteria.
2. If pH differs from above, consult local water treatment company
for treatment needed.
3. DO NOT use softened water. Softened water can cause corrosion. Why?

Hardness less than 7 grains
1. Consult local water treatment companies for unusually hard
water areas (above 7 grains hardness). I am at 7 without the softner. But if you are over 7 they say, "Consult local water treatment companies", which they will install a softner right?

From what I read I am going to hook it up with the softner.

What I am looking at now is if I should add that inhibitor.... It looks like just a pH thing. Possibly helps eliminate air?

Says this in the boiler manual. Also I read the pH naturally rises in boiler water, but not sure if true?

Check inhibitor concentration annually
1. Test the pH of a sample of system water at least annually. The pH of
the water mixture must be between 7.0 and 8.5. (Or use the Sentinel
inhibitor test kit to check concentration.)
2. If pH is outside this range (or inhibitor test kit indicates low level), the
inhibitor level may not be sufficient to prevent corrosion.
3. Test antifreeze concentration.
Test antifreeze concentration at least annually. If concentration
is low, add antifreeze or drain system and refill with
correct mixture.
4. Follow instructions on antifreeze container to determine the amount
of antifreeze needed. DO NOT exceed 50% by volume concentration
of antifreeze.
5. Check inhibitor level after adjustments are made.

Worst case a new heat exchanger is $800

Patriot Supply - 383-501-023

Here is the tool needed for boiler cleaning... Expensive for a piece of metal.

Patriot Supply - 591-706-200

Its expensive to go green........



Mike NJ

 

Naturally soft water (surface water) is often acidic, i.e. with a pH lower than 7. Acid water is ALWAYS corrosive. Aluminum, depending on the specific alloy is highly susceptible to corrosion. Ion exchange softeners when operating properly reduce the hardness of the water to zero. While I did pH testing of condensate (from steam boilers) I never ran a pH test on the softened water so I don't know what effect the softener had comparing the pH of the raw (inlet) water to the output water.

 

I can speak for most boiler manufacturer's of residential boilers. No softened water. In all honesty there has been a lot of testing done in NJ due to very high chloride levels in many pockets of the state, not saying it is from water softeners. A large number of steam boilers were failing and after a testing of fatigued metals company in Ohio it was contributed to soft water and high chlorides. Jersey has some of the highest chloride areas in our country. The farther west you go the better the water gets as far as volume of chlorides.

 

Thank you, rbeck. So the chlorides are naturally occurring in the local water rather than the result of a malfunctioning softener. Under that scenario the non-use of softened water in the boilers DOES make sense as the calcium in the hard water would have a (albeit slight) buffering effect against the chlorides.

In my area naturally occurring chlorides are all but undetectable. Here we have more problems with silica than we do with chlorides.

 

Are these chlorides from municipal water that has chlorine added? And even though municipal water is under 5ppm I would think the addition of chlorine in the water would contribute. Isn't chlorine bleach, and salt based? Sodium hypochlorite?

Would this buffering effect be what raises the pH level in a closed system?

Can I test for chlorides? I will go look at my water report and see if it lists them. I guess there are drinking levels and boiler level that chlorides should be below.

Mike NJ

 

The chlorides I see on the lab report is:

Carbon tetrachloride Max allowed 2 Im at

 

As Furd stated earlier follow manufacturers directions.

 

OK. I guess I will wait and see when they come and if I get a actual boiler. I will post the outcome.

I know I should follow the manufacturers suggestions but I am probably not going to.

I am going to feed softened water and most likely not going to add the goop.

From my readings online its sodium bicarbonate thats released and not sodium chlorides from the softner.

Contrary to popular belief, a water softener adds no salt (sodium chloride) to the household water. Rather, it exchanges sodium ions for the pesky hardness ions, thus adding sodium to the water supply usually in the form of sodium bicarbonate. During the regeneration process the softener is separated from the household water supply by an automatic bypass. This assures that no salt enters the house.

Mike NJ

 

Why do you think that you will be installing the boiler? I'm quite sure the program that gives away the boilers will also have their own contractors to do the installation. Or is the program giving away boilers and then telling the homeowners that they are responsible for installation?

 

My current boiler failed the CO/CO2 test. Under the program a contrator needs to come out and clean the boiler to get the levels down to 100ppm. The level are 250ppm. I have cleaned many Hydrotherms and the levels dont normally come down below 100 ppm after cleaning. Plus I cleaned my boiler last yr very thoroughly.

If they cant get the levels down the program states they need to put in 90+ or better replacement at no charge.

The company that has the contract that does the installs, is the company I worked for from 2005-2008. I am friends with the owner and trained most of the guys he has left working for him. I left him in 2008 to join a better larger plumbing company. I was laid off a yr later and have been out of work since.

I actually did installs for him through this program but it was of the WM Gold series boilers. Installing the Ultras has been a new thing through the program.

I know these guys. And usually its a dump and run because he is paid through this program.

Now I called my buddy after I heard that they were coming, and asked him what he was doing. Ironically he was installing a ultra in a home under this program. I asked him if he adds the X100 inhibitor. He said to me " What inhibitor"? After I was on hold for a moment he said " Yeah there is a tube of stuff. Am I supposed to add this?"

So these are the people I am working with that have no concern with the install process regarding water quality and the longevity of the system. And since the shoes is on the other foot and I am on the otherside, I will not be a dump and run.

If all goes well, yes I will install most of what I can or dictate to the installer, my previous co-worker, with how I want it layed out.

Mike NJ

 

You call them dump and runs and yet you state you will not follow the instructions dictated by the manufacturer concerning additives and soft water. The nice thing about manufacturers warranties is they are against manufacturers defects and not what people do in the field. The distributorship's have seen hundreds of cast aluminum heat exchangers be it WM, Burnham, Buderus etc or even cast iron and steel boilers by installations that the I&O manual was not followed.
Installers can do whatever they want doing the installations but the problem may be theirs if there is a failure.
I like term I heard from a manufacturers tech guy, he stated during a phone conversation with a contractor "Do what you want but when your done with the installation scape our name off the boiler and write your name on it, that's one wedding I don't want to go to." That means the contractor married that job.

 

Well yeah.. Isnt that what the additives are for? Unknow water quality? I know whats in my water. Ask the average homeowner what his pH is, or his alk...etc. Bet they dont know.

In what capacity was the I&O not followed? Are you talking water quality? And what happened? I am looking for a case study where an aluminum heat exchanger failed from water softners.

Like I said the manual states a ph of 7.0 which I am at.

The manual says DO NOT use softened water. Softened water can cause corrosion. Again why.

I have not seen facts that softened water is the cause of corrosion. I think softened water would benefit with the removal of magnesium and calcium. That would be more damaging.

Corrosion in boilers - Lenntech

Here is a cut from the next link. This is for boiler internal products, which is one way to treat the water. Also external ways. After reading, why would I want to add any of that to my boiler?


The commonly used products include:

•Phosphates-dispersants, polyphosphates-dispersants (softening chemicals): reacting with the alkalinity of boiler water, these products neutralize the hardness of water by forming tricalcium phosphate, and insoluble compound that can be disposed and blow down on a continuous basis or periodically through the bottom of the boiler.
•Natural and synthetic dispersants (Anti-scaling agents): increase the dispersive properties of the conditioning products. They can be:
◦Natural polymers: lignosulphonates, tannins
◦Synthetic polymers: polyacrilates, maleic acrylate copolymer, maleic styrene copolymer, polystyrene sulphonates etc.
•Sequestering agents: such as inorganic phosphates, which act as inhibitors and implement a threshold effect.
•Oxygen scavengers: sodium sulphite, tannis, hydrazine, hydroquinone/progallol-based derivatives, hydroxylamine derivatives, hydroxylamine derivatives, ascorbic acid derivatives, etc. These scavengers, catalyzed or not, reduce the oxides and dissolved oxygen. Most also passivate metal surfaces. The choice of product and the dose required will depend on whether a deaerating heater is used.
•Anti-foaming or anti-priming agents: mixture of surface-active agents that modify the surface tension of a liquid, remove foam and prevent the carry over of fine water particles in the steam.

Read more: Boiler water treatment - Lenntech

I mean I may be wrong and everyones water is different. Instead of treating the customers household water, as a sales point of view, the boiler manufacturers send a magic tube of gunk that keeps air at bay, pH, alk...etc. Like antifreeze if you dont keep the levels up the stuff goes south and gets corrosive. Most likely inhibitors are the same way, once you add them.

Maybe I am mis-informed.

Mike NJ

 

We can argue all day about benefits of the additives like breaking down fluxes, anti-corrosive etc, but the bottom line is don't follow directions and you may not get a warranty if needed. The boiler water chemistry changes as it heats and cools, takes on more fresh water if needed and the Ph and chemical concentrations changes which is where the concern is. Adding small amounts of water over time due to water leaks the water slowly leaks out but the chemicals stay in the boiler water. Temperature plays a small part in all of this and cast aluminum has 8 times the thermal transfer than stainless steel and cast iron has about 6 times more thermal transfer than cast aluminum.

 

For me, I have to use softened water for the boiler - the municipal water utility softens the raw water with a cold-lime process. I suspect that the concern is with home softeners that use salt (sodium chloride) to regenerate the softener's ion-exchange resin - maybe there are some chlorides that don't get completely flushed after regneration and that are in the softened water? Aluminum (and, also, stainless steel) are not usually considered good for use with water containing significant chloride concentrations. Cast iron and carbon steel are much more tolerant of chlorides.

 

As I stated earlier it always comes down to how tight the water system is and how much make-up water is taken on. A tight system may not feed for years. Others feed weekly. Make sure the system is tight as a sealed system should be and all this conversation is not important. The initial fill isn't even important. Although, I would still use the additive :>).

 

OK I have another concern.

I did a heat loss calculation with the slant fin Hydronic Explorer. I got it to work. Its a little tempermental.

Any way.

Indoor temp 70F out door 0F
Cape code house 1050 sq ft
Heat loss 1st floor 20000 btu
heat loss 2nd floor 10000 btu

That totals 30000 btu but the calculator added some and it comes to a gran total of 41000 btu.

Base board on 1st floor is 68 ft of element. 2nd floor 20 ft.

( I could take the 8 ft I added to the crawl space and take it off the 68 ft loop and put it on the 20 ft loop. If it matters.)

This ultra 80 I was discussing has a IBR of 62000 btu.

My old Hydro there is an HC 85. 85000 btu input /68000 output btu circa 1984 or earlier.

I am too stupid to figure out if the ultra is too big but it does modulate. At its lowest modulation I think I read 40000 btu.

I may be better off with this WM with a IBR of 37000 btu??? Its the smallest they make.

Residential Gas-fired Boiler | CGi Gas Boiler | Weil-McLain


Seems like a wash?????

Also I probably will add a indirect when this HWH goes. Just the 30 from WM.

Thanks all for putting up with my dumb thoughts and questions.

Mike NJ

 

Say what? too stupid? crazy maybe, but not stupid!

I'm sure that 30K is more realistic, but what do you mean that the calculator 'added some' ?

So, if the WM goes from 40 to 60 ... and your heat loss on a 0° day is 30K, then the WM will always be down at 40, right? and STILL too big.

Your 68 feet of baseboard on the 1st floor is capable of heating the whole house. say 500 BTU per foot... or thereabouts... but that's a GOOD thing when working with mod/con... because it means you can use cooler water, and condense more of the time.

You might even consider ADDING some for the upstairs, in the same proportion to the overage that you have downstairs... that way you won't have an imbalance... verschtenen?

I would go with a smaller boiler.

 

When you do a heat loss you use the DOE output number not IBR. The modulating boiler is a better choice as far as modulating and better matching the load, as far as efficiency it will not be a huge difference. What is the turn down or minimum input of the ultra? Seems like 40 is not correct. That is only a 50% turn down which seems like it should be a lot more.
As far as moving baseboard the first floor has twice what you need and the second floor is only 2000 btu's over. If you add it to the second floor you will work at lower temps when the second floor is heating as it would go up to about 16,800 at 180f water. If you spend the majority of the time on the first floor and add it to the first floor it would even lower the required temp on the first floor even lower, more saving when the first floor is heating.
With that all said the only thing to think about is the amount of short cycling when the second floor is heating if you add it to the first floor. It may wash out the extra savings you may have by adding it to the first floor.
My vote would be add it to the second floor. Short cycling is worse than a little more fuel cost.

 

So the smallest ultra boiler 80, DOE capacity is 71 MBH ( Max 80 MBH Min 16 MBH ) ???????? 16000 btu low fire???
The smalles cast iron CGI is DOE 42 MBH ( Matches my heat loss calc....) Input 50 MBH.

I dont know how to calculate that. I assume 500 x 68 ft is 37000 btu and I only need 20000 according to my heat calculation for the first floor.

You wouldnt remove base board would you? I can? It will not take nothing to take 20 ft off the first. And add 8 ft to upstairs. The 8 ft is in the crawl. I need to run it off one of the zones.

68 ft 1 st floor. - remove 6 ft in living room and 6 ft in master. Take the 8 ft in crawl and take it off the first floor and add it to the second.

That will give me 48 ft first and 28 ft 2nd floor, but 8ft of the second floor is in crawl remember )

Over thinking again right??????

Mike NJ

 

I forgot that you had CI baseboard... I think I would leave it alone in that case.

If the boiler goes down to 16K then I don't think there's a problem with that.

 

Copper finned BB. No cast iron in this house. I wish.

Mike NJ

 

Do the Ultra80. Don't do anything to the baseboard in either zone. See how it goes for a year or so. Spend that year messing around with the reset curve and balancing the zones so they both stay on a lot (using the lowest water temp possible). Balance by closing baseboard dampers, wrapping some element in aluminum foil, playing with thermostat setpoints, etc. You are shooting for constant circulation and low firing for long intervals. It can be done. Not hard. And the house will be incredibly comfortable.

Make sure the Ultra is installed exactly by the book for piping, venting, etc. Use the bottle of conditioner. It won't hurt, and it will follow the manufacturer instructions. What rbeck said about the water is totally correct. If the system is tight, don't sweat it.

The install manual is very complete.

http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multim...ler_manual.pdf

Have them install it like it looks in the book. Figure 5 is great. Sit around and make them go over the layout with you. Leave plenty of room for access, cleaning, and a future indirect. Suggest zoning the space heating with valves like Taco Zone Sentry, and using a Grundfos Alpha for the distribution circulator. Costs more up front but will save in high NJ electricity prices in just a couple years over a standard circ.

 

Thanks xiphias.

I wonder if my current boiler is still around because of the return loop I have. Instead of the return going right into the bottom port, it comes up off the floor above the boiler to about 5 ft then loops back down to input. There is a air vent at the top of this loop.

I am wondering if I should leave that loop there with that air vent? The scrubber is going on the feed and who knows what they use. Probably a taco. I would prefer a spirovent probably.

And I probably have to flush my own lines I am sure. I wonder if a strainer would be wise?

After the boiler is out I am going to hose bibs on the feed and reurn and run a hose to flush. Then reverse and flush again.

Thats all I can think of for the moment. I am losing sleep over this $#^%. As you know I worry too much.

OK we will see. Waiting for the phone call.

Mike NJ