I will try to explain my problem, but let me know if I leave out important details.

I have a Central Boiler Classic 4436 wood boiler with a Taco-009 pump, heating my 1500 sq ft house. Boiler/pump/Honeywell V8043E zone valve was installed 10 years ago by a contractor who I dont think had a clue what he was doing-I would never let him back out here to fix what he messed up, so that's not an option. Skipping over most of his errors, I realized last winter that my lines were flowing in the reverse direction that they were when I had my previous boiler, and then I realized
the zone valve was also installed backward. Over the last few years it started making horrendous slamming noises which I now know are because it was installed backwards. But most of those years it didn't close all the way, even when it worked. The one good thing about the noise was I knew it had really closed all the way. Eventually it stopped making the noise and stopped closing at all.

Based on what I'd read online (dangerous), I decided the head was shot. I replaced that but the valve still doesn't stop flow to the house zone. It may slow it down, but I cant tell that.

It seems to get the proper voltage from the transformer, 20-30v, though I'm no electrician. The head seems to be opening and closing the valve, but I'm starting to think the valve itself is damaged from all that slamming. So my first question (finally) is, can I tell if the innards are shot w/o removing it? is there a definitve test, or c an I remove them without removing the entire valve assembly? Its in a PIA location so I don't want to remove it until I'm 99.999% sure it will fix my problem.

Question 2) My boiler pipes were installed by a previous resident, not a contractor. The continuous loop in the garage returns up the long leg of a T, where the right arm then goes back to the boiler. The left arm has the zone valve installed a few inches from that T. That is the return line from the house (I switched the lines so they now flow the CORRECT direction). So hen it opens, the water joins the water flowing to the right arm of the T and back to the boiler. But I'm wondering if that slight pressure from the garage loop on the back side of the zone valve might keep it ope slightly?
For those not familiar with them Central Boiler systems are not pressurized, but there must be some pressure or the water wouldnt move.

I hope that isnt too confusing.

 

Yes, the wood boiler (I presume that's what you have? an outdoor wood boiler?) itself would not be pressurized, but the piping in the home should be... and in a way, almost MUST be, because the wood boiler is below the level of the piping... right?

The way this thing should be piped is into a HEAT EXCHANGER. This heat exchanger would allow the house piping to be pressurized to the proper PSI, and the loop to the boiler and back at atmospheric.

The water should move by energy transferred from the circulator pump... you do have a pump, right? In fact, there should be at least TWO pumps, one pumping the water to and from the boiler, and one circulating the water in the home.

I know this isn't addressing your questions directly, but we need to get a feel for just how messed up your system might be, so we'll get back to that once we understand the system.

We're probably going to ask for pictures... set up a free account at Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket and upload the pics there... come back here and drop a link to your PUBLIC album.

 

Just so we all understand each other, let's define some terminology regarding tee fittings.

The straight in and out ends are called the RUN of the tee.

The end coming off the side is called the BULL of the tee.

Can you rephrase what you said about the tee fitting using these terms? You can call the RUNs the LEFT and RIGHT...

 

If the zone valve is installed backwards, why on earth would you not remove it and install it correctly? When you do remove it, you can look inside and determine if it is damaged and needs replacing.

 

Thanks, sure. The return side of the continuous loop (ie always flowing) of the garage heads up the bull and returns to the boiler via the right run. The house return pipe enters the left run of the tee and exits the right run on its way to the boiler. And I'm wondering if that slight pressure from the continuous loop could possibly keep the valve slightly open even when its in the closed position.

 

I appreciate your intentions in wanting to understand the whole system, but thats a very big.. can of worms. There are many problems with it, few of which I have time, money or expertise to address, or even explain adequately online.

The pipes are not pressurized. There is a Taco 009 pump on the output line at the boiler, that circulates the hot water through the entire system, which consists of copper pipe and cast iron radiators. The only pressure in the system comes from that. When I call central Boiler and ask them how much pressure the system is under, they say, and I quote, "none". Obviously that is incorrect because the water is moving, but there is very little pressure in it. Whatever a Taco 009 generates pushing water through roughly a couple hundred feet of 3/4" pipe, that is the pressure.

To answer the other question posed, I did not reverse the valve because I wanted the water to flow in the other direction, so that it heats rooms in my preferred order, like it did with my old boiler. But its good to know I can examine the innards if I remove it, I didnt know that so thank you. Can you also examine them from the top if you take the head off? I should have paid closer attention when I changed heads to see if there is an access panel, but I didnt.

 

I suppose that it could, but only if there were enough pressure difference. I guess it would depend on how the other end of the loops are connected.

 

You won't see the guts if you simply remove the power head. All you will see is the shaft of the valve sticking up. If you remove the top plate of the valve, you will be exposed to the water in the system... albeit, not under pressure, but if there is any water above it (altitude wise) then that water will drain.

 

Let's talk about this a bit...

The 'normal' way of installing one of these boilers is to have two hydronically SEPARATE piping loops. The Heat Exchanger that I mentioned previously is the device that provides this separation. The IN/OUT of the one side is separated from the IN/OUT of the other side by metal. In this way, the boiler side can remain atmospheric, and the home side can (and should) be pressurized.

The ONLY way that your system can possibly be working without this heat exchanger, and not pressurized, is if your home is a ranch style with all the heat emitter piping below the level of the overflow pipe on the boiler.

If any part of your heat emitter system were above the level of that overflow, there would be no water in it. If you tried to fill the system that high, the water would obviously flow out of the overflow on the boiler.

Imagine trying to heat a multi-story home with the boiler at ground level... not possible, there would be no water any higher than the boiler.

OK, so your installer guy was absolutely a bozo... there should have been a heat exchanger, and the piping in the home should have been a CLOSED, PRESSURIZED system.

Central was correct in saying that there is no pressure... in THEIR equipment.

Is the 009 pump in your system a BRONZE, or STAINLESS STEEL bodied pump? If it is not, it's a miracle that it's lasted ten years. I suspect that it IS. When operating OPEN, NON pressurized systems, there is a tremendous amount of O2 present in the water. This O2 will fairly quickly destroy any ferrous metals present, such as pumps and such. If the pump was supplied by Central with the boiler, it is almost certainly a bronze bodied one.

 

Just so you have an idea of what is inside those valves...

The way they work is pretty simple really. There is a round 'composition' material ball inside. This ball is pushed against the seat by a lever that is connected to the shaft that the power head connects to. It really is that simple. If it's damaged to the point where there are 'dents' in the ball... or perhaps chips out of it from the hammering (possible I guess?) then it won't seal against the seat and allow small flows when closed.

The balls are available as replacement items. As long as the solid brass is not damaged, you can replace the ball and O-rings on the cover without removing the valve body.

If it's bass-ackwards though, you might just wanna put in a new one and reverse it.

Still... it might bang yet. Reason being that you have a constant circulation. When you try to stop that flow of water with the pump still running, it may still bang. Why it didn't bang from day one is anyone's guess!

 

I don't think you can find the balls individually... here's a bag of ten:

Patriot Supply - 132184B

The O-rings:

Patriot Supply - 272756A

WRONG! Here's a rebuild kit for one valve:

Patriot Supply - 272742A

 

OK, one last bit of reading material and I'm off for a few beers

http://customer.honeywell.com/techli...it/95-6983.pdf

There's notes on page 10 that are of interest:

Also on page 10, see figure 30 which shows a cutaway of the valve so you can see what's inside.

When the valve is installed backward, you can see that the ball would 'slam' against the seat, whereas installed properly, the ball would pinch off against the flow as it was closing, much more quietly!

 

Another thing that will rust are those cast iron radiators. I don't know how long to expect them to last in this system, but making the system inside the home separate from the boiler system will be well worth the money in saving those rads.

 

I'm not sure what the pump is made of. I've only had it open once and that was many years ago.

I understand your reasoning here about the pressure, though I don't fully understand the part about the heat exchanger. Let me preface this by saying 2 things-the pipes in the house were pre-existing, and were there from my older, closed, pressurized boiler system. Second, when they first installed the new boiler, they walked away and the water did not circulate. I had to complain and complain to get them to install the larger 009 pump instead of the smaller one they originally used, which the contractor swore would work fine. He kept saying my pipes were clogged, and I needed to clean them out. So I spent days flushing and flushing it (it was never clogged, he was an idiot) before he finally installed the 009. Finally I had heat. Even after the 009 I had trouble getting water to my upstairs radiator, when I had no such trouble with the pressurized system. I get it now, since I reversed the flow to the direction it was before, because of the way the pipes are laid out (which I'm sure is FAR from optimal). But I think even my first floor radiators are at or above the boiler. Have to wait till daylight to make sure but I think they are.

 

I don't think you are getting it. Your system is an open system. You won't be able to have water in a second floor radiator if the boiler is below it.

The heat exchanger allows you to have a pressurized system in the house and an open system outside. The water from both enter the heat exchanger with separate piping. The water does not mix inside the exchanger. They are separated by metal. The metal conducts heat from the open system to the closed system.

 

Wayne, look around your system pipework. Is there something that looks like this?:


image courtesy e-comfortusa.com

If your boiler is well below the upper heating emitters (baseboards), and you have heat in them, and there is no water spewing out the overflow on the Central, then you MUST have something that looks like this.

Inside a heat exchanger are two separate paths for water to take. They don't mix. Only HEAT is transferred. The water in the two loops is totally separate.

Look again... is there something that looks like this? (it could be a different color):


image courtesy e-comfortusa.com

That's an expansion tank, and if you have one of those, it's a sure bet that you have a PRESSURIZED loop in the home, and if you DO have a pressurized loop in the home, it's a sure bet you will find a heat exchanger if you look hard enough.

Here's the bottom line:

Gravity never sleeps. If you have heat (meaning you have water) in any pipe that is above the altitude of the top of the overflow on the Central, then you absolutely MUST have a pressurized system in the home. You can't beat gravity!

Wanna do a science experiment that proves this?

Take a garden hose and fill it with water while holding both ends of the hose at the same level. Now lower one end of the hose below the other. Does water come out? You bet it does! It's the same thing with the piping in your home. There is no way that you can have water higher than the level of the overflow on the boiler.

 

Ok, but...I DO have water in it and its WAY above the boiler. I'm not arguing with you, but the radiator is full of water, now that I reversed the flow, (because now its near the beginning of the loop instead of the end. At least thats my theory).

I don't have an expansion tank on it, Trooper. The old system did have one.

Ok, that makes perfect sense now thanks. I don't have one. The water in the boiler is the water in the pipes and radiators, unless there is some magic going on that I dont understand. I drain the boiler, the pipes drain. I fill the boiler, the pipes fill, as soon as I turn the pump on anyway. There is no separate "add" point for the pipes because they are hooked up directly to the boiler reservoir.

And now please pardon this bit of extreme ignorance-why MUST I have these things....I understand what you both saying but....cant the PUMP move the water against gravity? I can make water move against gravity using a hand pump...

 

Well if there is no heat exchanger as Trooper decribed, and there is not one on a water heater like page 12 her, then it must be pipe like a radiant system on page 15. I guess just ignore the HWH and air handler they show. Is that like something you have?


http://www.centralboiler.com/media/CBBrochure.pdf

Here is a radiator diagram.

http://www.centralboiler.com/Tech/C382.pdf

Three way zone valves?

Central Boiler - Outdoor Wood Furnaces

I cant get other diagrams to display. But I think you are right. No heat exchanger needed.


Need to read more to help any, but possibly this info will help the others help you better.

Mike NJ

 

For the radiators to give off heat, the system needs to be completely full of water. For arguments sake, let's say your pump was pushing water up to the second floor. Once the pump stops pumping, all the water will drop down to the level of the boiler. Water would come out of your system. Can you take pictures of your system on post them online?

 

My system is similar to the one shown at the lower link, Central Boiler - Outdoor Wood Furnaces

except I dont have the heat exchanger on the water tank currently (my next problem to attack), I have cast iron radiators, and there is no bypass like they show because I have a straight, two-way valve. If you imagine my continuous loop returning to the green line just left of that 3 way zone valve (and pretend its a straight valve), that's what I was trying to describe.

Based on the diagrams of the ZV innards, if I understand them correctly, it seems like that back pressure I was worried about might actually help keep the valve closed by pressing on the ball.

Anyway I should be able to turn off and drain a little water from the system and examine the innards of the ZV pretty easily because the only thing above it is the upstairs radiator.

 

The pump never stops. It is designed to run 24/7, that's why you need a continuous loop somewhere so it is always circulating. That loop is in my attached garage. When the house calls for heat the ZV on the house loop return line opens, allowing water to flow through the house supply lines. I'll try to post a drawing or picture later if this is still not clear.

 

OK, I see what y'all are thinking on this... and I will agree that it is possible to run this as a completely open system, with the following caveats:

All ferrous components in the system must be protected from corrosion due to the fact that this is an open system. A note in one of the links from the manufacturer which Mike posted indicate that chemicals must be used in the water to prevent this corrosion. The chemistry of the water should be checked periodically and levels of chemicals adjusted as necessary to maintain the protection.

Honeywell specifically states as noted earlier that their zone valves are not to be used in an open system.

Pumps, as also stated earlier, must be of corrosion proof design. Perhaps they can also be properly protected with chemical additives.

As long as you have a pump that is sized large enough and wasting enough electricity that you are able to pump water up to the second floor, fine... it will work...

Yeah, I said wasting enough electricity... because if you were using the 'closed' system approach with a heat exchanger, you could get by with a much smaller pump.

Water level inside the boiler must be maintained properly... when you fill the boiler and the pump turns on for the first time, that water level will drop because you will need to fill the pipes with water. Whether or not the water level drops enough to be a problem for the boiler is unknown. You may need to add some water to the boiler after the air is purged from the pipes.

 

The diagram which Wayne said is closest to his system, without the water heater, shows a 3-way zone valve, versus his two way... the bypass in that diagram is actually the garage loop, off a tee ahead of the zone valve.

So, mentally picture that 3 way as a 2 way, and on the boiler side of the valve picture a tee with the garage loop on it.

 

Wayne, do you hear the water flowing in the baseboards when the system is running? In other words, does it sound as though air is being pushed through along with the water?

 

Correct. I don't have baseboard heaters but I can hear the system flowing when its open-I don't know if its water moving or if its just a slight hum being transmitted from the pump through the lines. I have bleeders on each radiator so there is no air in the system.

Yes you have to use additives in the system to control corrosion. I wonder if the additives negate Honeywells comment about open systems-Central Boiler is pretty well established in the midwest and AFAIK they've been using Honeywells for at least a decade.

I dont kno how much power the Taco 009 draws, but I've been told its not much.

 

Look at it this way... you've been using the system for like ten years now... and the stuff is still working... so that must mean that something is protecting the ferrous parts of the components, zone valve included.

Air/water moving would certainly not sound like a 'hum'. It would be a 'sloshing' sound... and if there were air in the system it might contribute to the water hammer banging when the ZV closes...

"Not much" is a relative term. If that pump were running 24/7 for a month, and your electric rate is about .12 per KwH, it probably costs you about $15 a month to run. So, I guess what you save on fuel by burning wood, you more than make up for the pump running.

The 009 pump is what they call a 'high head' pump, and it would have the ability to raise the water at least one floor up. Not a large VOLUME of water, but should be enough to suit the purpose... as before, it is heating, so I guess it's working.

 

There is no air in the system now, although there probably was in the upstairs radiator over these years. I have always kept the additives in the system to prevent corrosion-of course it only works where there is solution. But its still holding water.

I took the valve apart and found the ball sitting in the bottom of the valve body. It apparently got slammed one too many times and separated from its pin. Problem diagnosed. ;-) Guess I'll get the rebuild kit now...I'll need to talk to Patriot though, the pin might be damaged too.

Thanks for the help. If I ever feel like attacking the other problems in this system, I'll come back.

 

You could buy another complete valve... and use the guts from it. You would then also have a spare powerhead on hand.

 

I have now replaced the motor head and the ball. I've tried it with and without the teflon sleeve they provide for putting inside the ball sleeve. It still doesn't shut the water off all the way. I've inspected the inside of the valve body here the ball seats for damage and found nothing. I've now spent more than it would have cost to replace the whole valve, I can't return most of it, and it still doesn't work. GRRRRRRRR!!!

 

Just throwing this out there, and did not read the thread over, but is the body the correct orientation in regards to flow?

Mike NJ

 

No... or at least it wasn't... I'm not sure if it was turned around or not.

 

I turned the flow of the whole system around, so it now flows the way I want it to through my house (and the way it did before I got the most recent boiler, when they reversed it) , and it now flows the proper way through the zone valve body also.

Even though it isnt pressurized, there must be too much pressure for the valve. I don't get their design. When it closes, the motor closes the ball against the incoming run, so the water is pushing against it trying to open it. Why wouldn't they use the motor to open it, and let the water pressure help keep the ball pushed closed against the outgoing run otherwise? I'm no engineer but that seems weird to me. I'm sure they must have a good reason though.

 

Because it would slam shut and make a lot of noise.

 

Like it did when flow was reversed. Makes perfect sense now.

I still wonder if there is some hidden damage from all that slamming.

 

I know that there is a spec on how much pressure they can hold closed against... and normally it's not a problem, but apparently the way your system is piped, and with the constant circ, it's not holding.

I wonder if there's some way that you can use a 'differential bypass valve' in order to relieve the pressure from the zone valve...

Taco Differential Bypass Valve. Honeywell Differential Bypass Valve. Caleffi Differential Pressure By-Pass Valve. Taco 3196-1. Honeywell D146M1032 D146M1040

 

I think I've figured out the most likely cause-the moron who installed the system in the first place! And why not add another item to the list of things he did wrong?

I talked to Taco and the pump generates 16psi differential pressure. I talked to Honeywell and they make 2 versions of the V8043 in a 3/4 inch sweat. One has a close pressure (I may not be using the right terms but you understand) of 8 psi and the other is 20psi. So I have a 50% chance of having a valve that can't stay closed with 16psi working on it. Unfortunately Honeywell was 100% useless in helping me determine which one I have. Apparently all they put on the valves is a sticker, which is long long gone if it was ever there at all.

So I called up the guy who installed the system and asked if he knew what valve he installed 10 years ago and he said just a zone valve. I told him there were two types according to Honeywell, one 8 and one 20 lb close pressure. He said with certainty in his voice that he would have installed the 8. I explained what Taco told me about their pump generating 16psi, and he gravely doubted that. He said no, they must mean 16 feet of head, but they clearly said 16 psi/ 35 feet. Then I asked him again what zone valve he installed, and he backed off and said he didn't know, probably because he realized I had him trapped. First he installed a pump that was too small for my house, then when I complained for a week he finally switched it out for the larger pump but he didn't switch out the zone valve that was now inadequate for the increased pressure of the larger pump. This fits the pattern perfectly, the pattern of his f-ups that I've been fixing for almost 10 years.

I like this answer but its troubling that I cant prove it without buying another zone valve that I can't afford. Its pretty unbelievable that they don't stamp their zone valves so I can ID it with certainty.

 

Or you could use a diff pressure bypass valve...

On the inside of the valve cover... there's no 4 digit number stamped ? Look on every surface you can see.

 

Wouldnt that have two repair kits then?

The specs for your zone say this:

Maximum Close-off Rating (@ Flow
Capacity Rating) :
20 psi (@ 3.5 Cv)
8 psi (@ 8 Cv)

Im not sure there are two different valves.


Mike NJ

 

There is no number on the valve. It should be on the power head. Honeywell insists. The original power head said "replacement head for V8043E", and thats all. That's all my new replacement power head says. I've looked at pictures of new valves and their power heads DO have the model stamped on them. All of which leads me toward another indictment of the contractor: He apparently installed a used valve with a replacement power head. There's no other explanation for it not having the model # on it.

There are (according to Honeywelll) only 2 models of 3/4" sweat V8043E in the 1000 series (there is also a 5000 series-I'm not sure what the difference is except burst pressure is higher in the latter, and presumably they would not have used one of those). One is the 1012, with 20 psi max close off and the other is the 1061 with 8 psi maximum close off pressure. But because mine came with a replacement head already on it, there is no way to know which of the two I have. The replacement power heads are apparently interchangeable.

Patriot Supply - V8043E1061

here are the specs

Product

Can someone explain what Cv/Capacity means in those specs? They vary between those two, but everything else except close off pressure looks pretty similar. I want to make sure I'm not setting myself up for new problems if I decide to try a 1061.

But I'm leaning toward getting a different brand of zone valve altogether, as I've had enough of this headache. The advantage of the 1061 is it will wire up easily and different kind might be beyond my very limited electrical abilities.

 

Hello,
The Cv Rating would be how much water, in gallons per minute, flows across a valve, at a pressure drop of 1 psi, at 60'F.
Hotter water has significantly higher flow rates.

In other words, at 60'F;
the valve that has the Cv rating of 3.5 will only flow 3.5 gallon of water a minute thru it with a 1psi pressure drop across the valve.
- and evidently will close if there is no more than 20psi pushing on it.

My speculation is the lower flow rate might be due to beefier guts, that get in the way of the flow.


the valve that has the Cv rating of 8
will allow 8 gallons of 60' water per minute to flow thru it
and evidently can close if there is no more than 8lbs of pressure at that flow rate.

My speculation is the 009 pushing against 100+ feet of 3/4" copper and then upstairs 10-15 feet will be pushing well over 8psi at the valve, depending on exactly how long the house and garage zones are.


Peter