Weil Mclaing HE3 Series boiler ***defying physics***

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Old 10-08-11, 12:44 PM
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Question Weil Mclaing HE3 Series boiler ***defying physics***

I know this thread is OLD, but did anyone ever come to an idea what was going on with this guys boiler? Mine is doing the same type of thing and it's not heating up past 140. Everything is working like it should, but the temp of the water coming out isn't going over 135. Last year I had no issues with it reaching 175, nothing changed over the summer...what gives?
 
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Old 10-08-11, 12:51 PM
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Question Weil Mclaing HE3 Series boiler ***defying physics***

Hello all,
First time poster, but hopefully there will be some knowledge out there that can help me out. I have a Weil Mclain boiler HE serise model HE-4. Last year I had a few things replaced..ie: expansion tank, fill valve, air bleed valve and a inducer motor. The boiler worked great all season and would heat the water to about 175 degrees. No, for some reason I fired it up this year and it's not going over 140. I don't have any leaks in the system, the boiler looks good from the outside (using inspection mirror to look up into it), the tubes are cleaned, circulators working. The output temp from the boiler is around 135 and the ventstack temps are around 245-250 18inches from the boiler. It just doesn't make sense why it won't go past 140....I'm at a loss for this one....anybody got any ideas? My pressure cold is around 10psi and when heating goes to around 20psi. I shut off the water feed just to make sure it's not bleeding anything out of the system and it stays rock solid at 20psi until it shuts down. Ideas??
 
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Old 10-08-11, 01:05 PM
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Well, I guess it could be a few things.

Are you not getting enough heat out of it? It's possible that the thermostat is satisfied before the boiler gets to full temp.

Gauges go bad. You should verify that your gauge is accurate.

Your aquastat could have gone bad.
 
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Old 10-08-11, 01:33 PM
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I merged the posts in the old thread with your new thread... no point in running two.

*** defying physics *** ? How so?

How are you measuring the water temperature? The gauge on the boiler? Have you verified that the gauge is accurate?

How are you checking this out? Turning the thermostat in the home all the way up?
 
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Old 10-26-11, 09:03 AM
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I'm using a fluke IR meter to read the output temperature on the pipe and its right at 139-140. I turn the aquastat down to that temp and the boiler will shut off as it's suppose to. I have the temp differential set at 5 degrees and when it hits around 134 it fires back up (as long as there is still a call for heat). I'm just at a loss as to why it hits a brick wall at 140. Any ideas?
 
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Old 10-26-11, 09:23 AM
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Here is your manual for reference.

http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multim.../he3manual.pdf

What is the aquastat set at????

If at 180f and you are only getting 140f then turn it up. Try 200f, Then see if the temp goes up. If so that will tell you its the aquastat.

The diff is set to close.

I'm just at a loss as to why it hits a brick wall at 140. Any ideas?
Do you know how an aquastat works?

Could you give us the #'s off the aquastat?


Mike NJ
 
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Old 10-26-11, 10:21 AM
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Yes, I understand how the aquastat works. I've turned it up to around 200 and let the boiler run for an hour and it won't go past 140. The only reason I have it turned down to 140 with the 5 degree difference is that I need to get some heat out of the system since it's starting to get cold and I don't want it running all night long without a break. Especially, since I don't know if there is a serious problem.
 
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Old 10-26-11, 12:01 PM
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What is the make and model aquastat????

And the pipes dont get hotter then 140F as you describe with your IR gauge??

Physically touch the pipe with your hand also. You will know the difference with 140 or 180 water. possibly the IR is reading wrong. ( Dont burn yourself)

I would say bad aquastat then, if not the gauge.

Does it shut down at 140f regardless of where you set the HI???

How does the flame look?

Mike NJ
 
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Old 10-26-11, 12:16 PM
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I'll have to get back to you on the aquastat make/model (I'm not home at the moment). I can actually hold the pipe for amount of time and I'm 99% confident in my IR gauge. The boiler will not shut down until I turn the aquastat down to around 135-140...if I turn it up to 180 or even 200 the burners will continue to run and I will watch the temp just stay at 140 on the gauge and the IR meter. That's why I say this thing is defying the laws of physics. It's like I'm putting a flame to a dollar bill and it's not catching on fire. I just don't get what could have happened. Last year it went to 180-200 no problem and worked great. The flame looked good and blue. I'm hoping that the tech I have coming out tonight can do a measurement of the gas pressure at the valve (should be around 3in H2O) and maybe has a combustion analyzer to help figure this out.
 
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Old 10-26-11, 12:20 PM
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Solder connections often fail. Corrosion of the pc board, anything really. Parts fail. Its a mechanical device. Nothing lasts forever.

It happens.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 10-26-11, 02:10 PM
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I understand that...I just want someone to tell me what is failing, or why it failed to begin with. It's just not making sense to me. You have air+fuel+spark=flame, flame=heat and it's not getting hotter then 140. I'll post if the service guy finds anything I've missed after his visit tonight. Would this be a sign of a failing boiler? I always thought a failing boiler would leak or something.
 
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Old 10-26-11, 02:26 PM
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water

Hi Car,
Any possibility there is air in the pipes instead of water?

Otherwise it would have to take an awfully sick flame not eventuall heat things up.

Or is the demand in the house using up all the heat? What are the return temperatures? What type of radiation do you have, any in slab radiant?


Peter
 
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Old 10-26-11, 07:33 PM
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Take all the guesswork out and find out where you loose the 24v. Check the flame roll-out switch. I have found tis before even though it is supposed to be once and done. There is no wiring diagram in the manual that was attached but the boiler will have a series circuit for the limit string.
 
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Old 10-27-11, 05:53 AM
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Ok, the tech came out and what he said makes sense to me. The flow control valve is stuck open and not allowing the water flow to slow down enough to get up to full heat. I take it like back in the old days when you took your thermostat out of your car to run cooler but during the winter because there was no restriction the car would never heat up. All makes sense now to me....I'm surprised nobody else had thought of it. I've scheduled for them to come out and replace the valve and we'll see what happens. Thanks everyone
 
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Old 10-27-11, 07:51 AM
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Hello Car,
I don't know a lot but i'm always trying to learn.
I never had any understanding that flow control valves worked like a thermostat for that purppose.
Intersting.

I do recall asking if the house was using up all the heat and what the return temperatures are but there waas no answer.


Peter
 
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Old 10-27-11, 08:34 AM
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I dont think thats it. IMO your wasting your money. I would probably run from that guy.

[SIZE=3]A flow control valve accomplishes two things. First the Flo-Control valve acts as a check valve, keeping the system flow from short-circuiting into places where it doesn't belong. Second, and just as important, the Flo-Control valve stops hot water from migrating into a zone that's not calling for heat. [/SIZE]

Mike NJ
 
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Old 10-27-11, 08:42 AM
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What else do you think it could be? I can cancel the install if I need too.
 
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Old 10-27-11, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by PeterNH View Post
Hello Car,
I don't know a lot but i'm always trying to learn.
I never had any understanding that flow control valves worked like a thermostat for that purppose.
Intersting.

I do recall asking if the house was using up all the heat and what the return temperatures are but there waas no answer.


Peter
Peter,
Thanks, that was just my thoughts on how it works, I can be wrong. I have radiant baseboard heat on the second floor and slab heat on the first. Last year I had no issues with the boiler getting up to 180...the prior owner actually had it around 200. This year it just doesn't want to go past 140...it's like it hits a brick wall at that point. Nothing has changed with the system...I do remember playing with the various valves and the flow controls were one of them (I have two, it's a dual zone system).
 
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Old 10-27-11, 08:49 AM
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Is there anything that slows the flow of water down? When the boiler shuts down or the call for heat is met I can see the water temp rise in the boiler...so, I know it's possible, it's like the water is moving to fast through the system.
 
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Old 10-27-11, 10:20 AM
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I have radiant baseboard heat on the second floor and slab heat on the first. Last year I had no issues with the boiler getting up to 180.
Explain exactly what type of heat emmiters are in the home?

Two zones with two circulators?

I bet you may have another limit control somewhere. There must also be a mixing valve for the radiant heat since you do not want high temps.


it's like the water is moving to fast through the system.
The water is not moving too fast...

Now we are getting somewhere..... And you know pics help greatly. We may be able to see things you dont see.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 10-27-11, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by lawrosa View Post
Explain exactly what type of heat emmiters are in the home?

Two zones with two circulators?

I bet you may have another limit control somewhere. There must also be a mixing valve for the radiant heat since you do not want high temps.


The water is not moving too fast...

Now we are getting somewhere..... And you know pics help greatly. We may be able to see things you dont see.

Mike NJ
I have your regular baseboard heat in my upstairs and slab heat downstairs. Yes, two circulator pumps, one for downstairs and one for upstairs. There are no other limit switches on this boiler that I can see (besides aquastat). I've gone through the maintenance manual and everything. It's a standard Weil Mclain HE3 series boiler rated at 100,000 btu's.
 
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Old 10-27-11, 11:19 AM
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I would post the make and model of the aquastat. We can do a test onece we find the model to bypass it temperarly to prove its faulty.

This would only be a test and by no means run the boiler in this mode.

Also something with the radiant in floor heat usually requires low temps, so something is amiss.

Like I said post pics.



Mike NJ
 
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Old 10-27-11, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by lawrosa View Post
I would post the make and model of the aquastat. We can do a test onece we find the model to bypass it temperarly to prove its faulty.

This would only be a test and by no means run the boiler in this mode.

Also something with the radiant in floor heat usually requires low temps, so something is amiss.

Like I said post pics.



Mike NJ
I work on getting that tonight, but I don't think that is the issue. It shuts off at 140 when I turn the dial down to 140 and will come back on when I turn it back up to 180, it just runs and runs and never gets hotter then 140.
 
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Old 10-27-11, 12:20 PM
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playing the valves

Hello CarBuff,
I do remember playing with the various valves
As Mike is trying to tell you, there must be some kind of temperature valve or bypass for the radiant part of the system.
Perhaps when you were "experimenting" with the valves, perhaps something didn't quite get restored to it's starting point?
Endless amounts 0f cold water, returning from a floor slab can easily overload a 100000 btu boiler
Picture, Pictures Pictures.
Then the folks here that understand these things can help you out.

Peter
 
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Old 10-27-11, 12:55 PM
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Endless amounts 0f cold water, returning from a floor slab can easily overload a 100000 btu boiler
But you would think eventually the boiler temp would rise above 140F??? Especially if there is some bypass, no??

Mike NJ
 
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Old 10-27-11, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterNH View Post
Hello CarBuff,

As Mike is trying to tell you, there must be some kind of temperature valve or bypass for the radiant part of the system.
Perhaps when you were "experimenting" with the valves, perhaps something didn't quite get restored to it's starting point?
Endless amounts 0f cold water, returning from a floor slab can easily overload a 100000 btu boiler
Picture, Pictures Pictures.
Then the folks here that understand these things can help you out.

Peter
I'll work on some pics tonight.
 
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Old 10-27-11, 01:03 PM
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Ya

Originally Posted by lawrosa View Post
But you would think eventually the boiler temp would rise above 140F??? Especially if there is some bypass, no??

Mike NJ
Well ya eventually, sure, but i'd think the concrete and floor would have to get pretty damm hot too.
I'm guessing it would take quite a while.
Depends on how much flow how long the pipes are in the slab how much volumje there is, the room temperature, how much insulation there is under the slab et all. etc.

Peter
 
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Old 10-27-11, 05:13 PM
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With a concrete slab, I think it is possible for it never to get above 140. Just like if you had a zone with 200' of fin tube baseboard. If the water keeps returning to the boiler at room temp, the heat will never build.
 
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Old 10-28-11, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by drooplug View Post
With a concrete slab, I think it is possible for it never to get above 140. Just like if you had a zone with 200' of fin tube baseboard. If the water keeps returning to the boiler at room temp, the heat will never build.
You know, I had it running last night and I'm actually seeing the temps coming from the boiler getting up to about 150 now, so it takes awhile, but it looks like it eventually heats. What I'm thinking is last year there may have been something blocking things and causing the temps to spike up to 180, but now, something may have shifted or changed (we did have a small earthquake in august) and now it's working more like it should. I have the house set at 67 downstairs and 67 upstairs (dual zone w/two circulators) and it's keeping the slab nice and toasty warm. The upstairs only has baseboard and when I checked this morning was around 65 degrees (cape cod style home). Outside temps were around 40F this morning.
 
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