Boiler Problems after chimney install. Boiler Service Technician stumped.


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Old 10-08-11, 03:34 PM
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Boiler Problems after chimney install. Boiler Service Technician stumped.

Hi, I know it's a DIY forum but I guess you could say I'm doing the research for troubleshooting.

Some brief history... My house has a Trianco Heatmaker boiler with a becket AFII burner. It was set up as a through-the-wall vent/intake
"Direct Vent" setup. On the side of the trianco boiler, it clearly indicates that a becket AFII is required and lists alll the readings like CO2, draft, etc.

I recently had a chimney installed. This required relocating the basement "Hydro-Air" air handler. Obviously, I had to re-route the HWS & HWR lines. Additionally, I repiped the exhaust vent to the newly installed chimney, and repiped the intake to a seperate 4" outside vent.

Yesterday was the first cold snap of the year and both the upstairs and downstairs heat was turned on. This tripped the boiler. So, I called my oil company. They told me it didn't trip the boiler but there had to be some air in the plumbing and the switch on the side of the header had to be reset. He claimed that the boiler was firing beautifully and left it at that.

Since then, I've had to reset the burner now 4 times. Everytime I do so, alot of smoke escapes through the exhaust piping. The boiler will cycle once but upon the 2nd cycle, it trips and has to be reset.

Upon speaking with the oil company again, they are a bit stumped. I was told it requires a different air intake kit as it's getting too much air. I question if the burner is even built for chimney venting?

Do I need a new burner? Do I need a new boiler? Would I still have air in the system?

thanks for any replies
 
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Old 10-08-11, 04:15 PM
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What's the model of the boiler ? ..............
 
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Old 10-08-11, 05:56 PM
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There was recent discussion in another thread about venting the exhaust through the chimney and having the intake someplace else. It seems most if not all manufacturers require both the exhaust and intake to be on the same side of the house. This is because there can be pressure diffentials between the two if they aren't from wind blowing across the house. Perhaps this is the problem.
 
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Old 10-08-11, 06:32 PM
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Hi,

thanks for the replies. As for venting, a chimney was added to the same side as the original direct vent exhaust. So, the intake is on the same side as the exhuast. Not sure how this would come into affect?

The model # for the Trianco boiler is MAX-120DV which is supposedly discontinued. Oil company says it dates to about 10 years old which would make it in line with the age of the hosue.
 
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Old 10-08-11, 08:27 PM
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I looked for a manual for your boiler to check the venting requirements and came up dry... so I don't have any advice regarding whether you can or can't chimney vent.

Upon speaking with the oil company again, they are a bit stumped. I was told it requires a different air intake kit as it's getting too much air.
With all due respect for your service guys, it sounds to me as if they are in CYA mode and doing some serious back-pedaling. BE CAREFUL, they are going to try and blame this on you and take more of your money.

Let me ask you this: Why did you have a chimney built and the previously functioning system vented into it ? Was that your idea, or someone else's ? Were you advised it was the right thing to do and that all would be well when finished?
 
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Old 10-08-11, 08:32 PM
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As for venting, a chimney was added to the same side as the original direct vent exhaust. So, the intake is on the same side as the exhuast. Not sure how this would come into affect?
It has to do with pressure differences between the intake and the exhaust.

Since the exhaust is now vented into a chimney, there is a DRAFT in the chimney that lowers the pressure at the exhaust side of the boiler relative to the intake side. In other words, the chimney will actively SUCK AIR through the boiler because of the height of the chimney.

Before, both the intake and exhaust were at the same relative pressure to each other.

This might be what the company means by 'too much air' ... but the bottom line is that you might not even be able to do what you are trying to do. Without the manufacturers information I can't say for sure...
 
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Old 10-08-11, 09:21 PM
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I think its this boiler. Larrs called it a Trianco heatmaker I believe.

http://www.gogeisel.com/geiselonline...Oil_Boiler.pdf


But even if its not the boiler,

You cant take a direct vent and pipe it in a chimney as far as I know. Thats why they call it a direct vent. It gets vented with the supplied material to vent directly to the outside. The original parts for the vent are needed. Do you still have them?

I had a guy do that with a dirct vent water heater. Decided to use his own vent because he did not want to drill a hole in the wall. The outcome was he almost killed everyone in the house. Got a call later that day. All the CO detectors were going off. People were pissed off I tell ya...

But yeah direct vent is a direct vent.

If it was induced draft, then yes, you can go in a chimney. But its not.

So I would say your oil company has a lot of young guys that cant tell the difference with direct vents, powervents, induced draft, etc... Probably because they never installed or worked on different products and dont understand. ( I would zing em' if they had something to do with it )



Mike NJ
 

Last edited by lawrosa; 10-08-11 at 10:14 PM.
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Old 10-09-11, 07:34 AM
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Mike I think yer right that's the manual... and here's a few paragraphs from it to illustrate a few points:

3I. Direct Vent Balanced Flue System

With this system flue gases are vented directly through the wall and fresh air for ombustion is drawn in through the same terminal, thus ensuring wind pressures are equal to the intake and flue gas discharge to create a balanced flue condition.
This illustrates what I had said earlier about having to have equal pressures existing at the intake and the exhaust. The pressure at the top of a chimney is way different than the pressure on the down low on a wall surface where the intake is.

8. As the balanced flue vent system operates under a slight positive pressure it is essential to seal all flue joints to prevent leakage of flue gases into the building. Vent exhaust piping must be certified pressure venting.
And this is probably why you are getting smoke out of the flue pipe joints.
 
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Old 10-09-11, 01:24 PM
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Wow, great find. I searched and searched for the owners manual to that boiler. It is exactly the boiler I have. After reading, it appears the AFII CAN be vented through a chimney and have the outside air connected. reading further, the controller must be wired differently, have a different aquastat installed, different controller and the air control has to be adjusted to obtain 11-12% CO2.

I'll pass this along. Thanks!
 

Last edited by sierradmax; 10-09-11 at 02:25 PM.
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Old 10-09-11, 02:27 PM
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If you read the comment I just edited out, order the jury to strike, it may not be true...

I'm gonna read the whole manual to make sure I understand...

the controller must be wired differently, have a different aquastat installed, different controller
You don't need to change the controls. The direct vent controls will work just fine with the chimney vent... that's not an issue. Those are extra safety items on the DV models and will not hurt a CV boiler at all. I've got them on my old boiler, as do lots of other folks.

The differences amount to a 'secondary high limit safety', and a primary control on the burner that allows for a 'post purge'. These are both GOOD things to have on ANY boiler.

A manual reset high limit aquastat (set at 220 F)
(104C) is provided on Direct Vent Boilers to shut off
the burner in the event of a failure of the high limit
control.

The burner features a post purge timer on Direct
Vent Boilers which provides a timed overrun of the
fan to clear residual flue gases from the boiler and flue
system after combustion is shut off.
BUT, I see that the AF II burner for the DV has a DIFFERENT PART NUMBER than for the Chim Vent model...

Part Number Description

70-184 Beckett AF2 (for direct vent D-MAX)
72-184 Beckett AF2 (for chimney vent MAX only
This MIGHT only have to do with the different control on the burner, and if so, not an issue. But if there is a different HEAD on the burner tube then you might have to change that. I can't see where we can determine the difference from this manual though...

Important points:

Install balanced damper on chimneys higher than
20 feet (6.1m).

IMPORTANT: Max 75-140 may condense
when vented into an outside chimney. To minimize
potential for condensing, install either thermostatic
union or recirc bypass, shown in Figures 15 and 16.

As the boiler and flue pipe are under slight
positive pressure on start-up, it is necessary to seal all
pipe joints with high temperature tape or silicone
sealant to avoid any flue gas leakage into room.
I'm not sure what they mean by 'balanced damper' above.
This MAY be a typo ... they may have meant BAROMETRIC DAMPER, which would make sense... because taller chimneys have progressively more DRAFT, and the BAROMETRIC DAMPER would control that excess draft.

Here's what looks to be a pretty good discussion on baro dampers.

Draft Regulators - Barometric Dampers: A Guide to Barometric Dampers on Oil Fired Boilers, Furnaces, Water Heaters: inspection, adjustment, cleaning, troubleshooting

Use high temp silicone, the red stuff, not tape.
 

Last edited by NJT; 10-09-11 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 10-09-11, 03:19 PM
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So, bottom line time:

How tall IS your chimney?

If a baro damper was not installed, I believe you should install one.

The burner needs to be adjusted properly for the new conditions of chimney venting.

There may be no other problem.

By the way, when was the last time the boiler was cleaned and the burner tuned up?
 
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Old 10-09-11, 06:53 PM
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The new chimney is 32' +/- and the boiler was serviced in April.

I hope its that simple. I'll install a damper and get the oil company back out here to retune.
 
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Old 10-09-11, 07:07 PM
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If the chimney was installed because of direct vent problems, the problem may not be entirely related to the vent. It seems many AFII burners start to have problems as they age. I have encountered this numerous times & usually end up replacing the AFII with a Riello.

Once you get the barometric installed & the burner reset for chimney venting, the problem may or may not go away. If it does not, I wouldn't hesitate a minute to pull the AFII & install a Riello.
 
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Old 10-10-11, 04:49 AM
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I wanted the chimney installed for a number of reasons. I installed a 3 flue chimney for a wood boiler, wood stove and I figured while it was going up, add an 8x8 for the boiler. It appeared that the previous owners rarely serviced the boiler and the side of the house was black.

Additionally, we can often smell fumes on the 2nd floor bedroom when the windows are open. Finally, the house didn't have a chimney to begin with. A 3300 sf colonial in my opinion, for asthetics and resale, looks better with a brick chimney.
 
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Old 10-10-11, 02:49 PM
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All good reasons for a chimney!

Let us know what happens next...
 
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Old 10-12-11, 02:47 PM
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I'd like to thank everyone who helped. You probably saved me thousands. Yesterday, the oil companies distributor was telling us I needed a new boiler.

It required a barometric damper and a little bit of adjusting the air and it seems to be wokring fine. In the past 24 hours, it has probably gone through a dozen cycles without a glitch.
 
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Old 10-12-11, 03:20 PM
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Ain't that always the way? "Oh, your boiler is shot, we'll sell you a new one..."

Then of course they would install the damper with the new one and it would work great and everyone would be none the wiser, but some richer, and some poorer.

Glad it worked out for ya! Happy Heating!
 
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Old 10-12-11, 03:46 PM
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After the barometric installation & air adjustment, has anyone done a combustion analysis? If not, one should be done.
 
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Old 10-12-11, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by sierradmax View Post
Yesterday, the oil companies distributor was telling us I needed a new boiler.
It required a barometric damper and a little bit of adjusting the air and it seems to be wokring fine.
Boiler salesmen operate on a commission, I would presume. Natural gas companies, decades ago, sold gas appliances. Many have stopped, possibly due to state regulatory issues. Oil companies aren't regulated. Personally, I would prefer to find a reputable contractor for boiler service and sales - not sure what the advantage would be for using the fuel supplier. Kind of like buying cars from Exxon or BP?
 
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Old 10-12-11, 04:34 PM
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You'd think the guys that install them would RTFM.
 
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Old 10-12-11, 05:09 PM
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LOL, humm I wonder what kinda cars Exxon might sell me.
It would be oversized, of course.
Have a big engine...
And not be tuned up very well.

All making them richer
 
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Old 10-15-11, 11:43 AM
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i enjoid lisinig in on your conversation....i'm getting ready to replace the power vent with a chimny and wasint sure what i would have to do diffrent as far as the boiler gose i am so glad to have stumbled onto you conversation.....thanks!
 
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Old 10-15-11, 02:13 PM
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Hi Knokin, welcome to the forums! Just check the specs on your boiler and make sure before you start. Glad this helped you!
 
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Old 11-25-13, 12:21 PM
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Reviving an old thread... I'm having trouble interfacing an installed wood boiler with this oil boiler. Basically, everything is operating fine with regards to the wood boiler. I have an aquastat on the wood boiler supply line controling TT signal to the oil boiler. When the wood boiler reaches 140degF setpoint, it breaks TT going to the oil boiler. At or just slightly below this temp, the oil boiler still fires and is tripping the manual reset high limit aquastat on the supply header to the oil boiler (set to 230degF), thus rendering the oil boiler inoperable.

As this topic indicated, I switched from a direct vent application to chimney vent. Oil Boiler manual says "L4006E High Limit manual reset is for direct vent boilers only". What's the purpose of the manual reset aquastat and is it still needed? Currently, the oil boiler has a 8148 aquastat relay as well.
 
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Old 11-25-13, 01:05 PM
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Hopefully the wiring you did is not somehow bypassing the high limit control in the 8148 aquastat. That's really the only way that the AUX HIGH LIMIT could go that far above and trip.

for direct vent boilers only
They are just saying that they only supply it with direct vent boilers. ANY boiler can be fitted with an aux high limit control.

You don't need to remove that AUX HIGH LIMIT... and in fact, don't want to, it's an extra safety... in case the one in the 8148 fails.

But, I'm making some presumptions here I think... that the oil burner keeps firing above 180 and I don't think that's what you are telling us is happening.

Try to explain the scenario and events that lead up to the aux high limit control tripping.
 
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Old 11-26-13, 05:53 AM
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OK. Here's how it trips.

Turn on Wood boiler. It has a near boiler loop with a thermostatic mixing valve (boiler protection) set to 142 degF and a dedicated circulator. After circulating, water reaches that temperature, hot water is then differed through the primary system loop. About 12" downstream from the supply side of the primary loop is the L6006C aquastat to control operation of the oil boiler. Set to break on rise at 140 degF.

Off the primary loop, I have individual zones controlled by circulators and the oil boiler is plumbed in parallel with the wood boiler. (no near boiler circ on the oil boiler). Whenever a zone calls for heat, that zone pumps HW through the oil boiler.



Up until the primary loops starts seeing 140 degF water, the oil boiler is still in operation. Once HW starts flowing from the wood boiler, there must be a small window where the aquastat hasn't cut TT signal to the oil boiler and this is when it trips the manual reset. After I reset it manually, the system does as it should.

However, the same occurrence happens on the tail end of the wood boiler operation. When the wood boiler water temp ramps down in the 140 degF range, the same things happens, often coming home to or waking up to a cold house.
 
 

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