Boiler will not turn off...Please help a n00b.

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Old 10-30-11, 07:41 PM
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Boiler will not turn off...Please help a n00b.

Hello everyone,
Well I tried to be a nice guy and everyone knows how that turns out.
My father in-law asked me to install a new thermostat so I kindly said sure....big mistake. I'm not sure of the name of the boiler but I think it maybe a Weil? My problem is that I took the old Honeywell mercury type thermo off and tried to replace it with a new programmable one. It's a 3-wire system(Red,White,Blue). The system also has has 2-Honeywell globe valves(V5011N2097) with ML7984 actuators. The boiler don't seem to have any circuit board just looks like a R8285 transformer/relay(to be honest I didn't see the relay part and I'm not around the boiler at the moment). The 1 actuator in the circuit with the thermostat I'm having an issue with will not close all the way but if I turn the main off and turn it back on it will be 3/4 the way down to start, and close all the way then open back to the 3/4 position. The actuator functions but opens when the thermostat is off and closes when on. I even tried installing a similar to the old style thermostat newer Honeywell heat only round style with the red wire to the "R" and white to "W" and blue to "Y"(I do know that "Y" is usually for A/C" but this is an heat only thermo, I think they just use the same back plate that the wires connect to for both heat only and thermo's with A/C function)

I don't know if the system was malfunctioning before I started because the system wasn't run this year.

The valve was closing all the way in the beginning but now is not. I would understand all of this if I shorted something(I have some electronics experience in Low/High voltages and building my own PCB's) but the only wires I touched were the ones up at the thermostat but I would think that its just power going up and then threw the thermostat when heat was called for and back down 1(W wire) to the boiler and 1("Blue" wire) to the valve.

I took the acctuator top off and didn't notice any limit switches but they could be in the gear box? I did read the manual for the actuator and did notice you could screw the auger screw down but haven't tried. (I thought it was able to auto-set itself)

Sorry for the long drawn out explanation, any help would be much appreciated as I'm out of work ATM and money is super tight and I'm sure I could figure it out with some help.

Thanks in advance
Chris
 
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Old 10-30-11, 08:00 PM
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a certain thermostat is required for those actuators to work properly or you must use a SPDT relay. When not heating the actuators must receive a signal on the B terminal in the actuator (y terminal on the thermostat) to close.
 
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Old 10-30-11, 08:04 PM
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Also like to throw out there that I took the thermostat off the wall and disconnected the wires up on the actuator but its still getting the call. Like I said I haven't notice any controller on the boiler so I guess if the is a relay under the transformer which I would imagine there is it must be stuck on. That I could deal with its only a $20 part but I tried sourcing a new PCB for the actuator but am not able to do so and its a $450 part.
I have to get a volt meter on it and try to figure some stuff out, only reason I think the pcb needs to be replaced would be because of it not closing all the way.?

I would imagine since I disconnected the wires on top of the actuator and the thermo that the relay is causing the boiler to continue to run?

Sorry about my rambling I'm just thinking of the money this is going to cost.

Thanks again
 
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Old 10-30-11, 08:12 PM
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I think its a CT87K1004 style thermostat..would that not work it was just an old Honeywell mercury style with "R" "W" "B" on the contacts?

How could this have started? I thought that power came up in the red wire and when the thermo called for heat the mercury just sent it back down in the other 2 wires or does the blue wire not get a full 24v?

Thanks for the quick response.
 
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Old 10-30-11, 08:29 PM
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power comes from R sent out for call for heat on W (open)
power comes from R sent out when not calling for heat on B (close)
 
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Old 10-30-11, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by hvactechfw View Post
power comes from R sent out for call for heat on W (open)
power comes from R sent out when not calling for heat on B (close)
Is it possible that the PCB and relay shorted out if all three were connected at the same time?

What thermostat should I look to buy lowes was no help and I just figured the CT87K would be my best bet.
 
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Old 10-30-11, 08:46 PM
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I would put the old thermostat back on and call a pro. This is a complicated system and not one that a box store programmable thermostat will do most likely.
 
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Old 10-30-11, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by hvactechfw View Post
I would put the old thermostat back on and call a pro. This is a complicated system and not one that a box store programmable thermostat will do most likely.
The old thermostat is already recycled and the one I'm using isn't programmable it's this one here:

Shop Honeywell Heat-Only Round Non-Programmable Thermostat at Lowes.com

To be honest a pro at this point isn't possible I didn't even have the $25 for the new thermostat. A service call is $75 plus. I'm sure I'm capable of doing the rest once I'm pointed to a usable thermostat, plus I only looked at the system for about 2 hours.
I'm hoping I could replace the R8222U relay, a usable thermostat(whats the equivalent of the old mercury ones today?) and go from there with the actuator if its still getting the call hopefully call Honeywell and get a new PCB.
It said in the manual that you could screw down the auger but it also said it would auto-set itself.(also found it weird that it would close all the way from the 3/4 position when the main was turned back on but returned back to the 3/4 on the way back down.)
 
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Old 10-30-11, 09:29 PM
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Cheapest would be a TH5110D honeywell focus pro non programmable. otherwise a programmable would be a TH6110D Honeywell programmable. Either thermostat must be setup in the installer settings for heat only and wired as follows.

Wiring to C on stat is optional, but lack of wiring to the C terminal requires the use of batteries in the stat.
 

Last edited by hvactechfw; 10-30-11 at 09:52 PM.
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Old 10-30-11, 09:38 PM
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Thanks HVACtech,
I'm going to go up tomorrow and try to figure it out.
Hoping grainger or a local plumbing supply store has that thermostat.
Thanks again for all the help
I'm sure I'll be back tomorrow.
Have a good night.
 
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Old 10-31-11, 05:36 AM
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That is an odd zone valve actuator to be putting on with just a thermostat.
If you model # is right that is a liner motorized actuator more meant for a mix application, not an one - off application such as we would expect this to be.
Can you take some pictures of the boiler system for us ?
This zone valve controller does not seem to have the required output to call the boiler on and off, I suspect there is another device used to operate the boiler temperature.
I think we need more info on this one.
 
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Old 10-31-11, 10:18 AM
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Hi TOHEATING,
I just wrote a full page describing everything but I guess I took to long to write and I lost everything when it asked me to sign in again...
I'm 99.9% sure there are no other controllers besides the circuit board built in on top of the actuators.

I think I narrowed it down to 3 issues and each is it's own separate problem??..

1- The thermostat, I'm going to try and source the thermo HVACTECH mentioned, I wonder if the programmable I tried to use in the first place would work? I don't have a part # ATM but it does have the same contacts as the ones on the one hes mentioned. When I tried to use that that one I had the red wire to "R" the white to "W" and the blue to "G"(Fan-the tech service guy said it wouldn't hurt:NO NO NO The boiler was responding fine but the actuator was reversed as in when off it opened and when on it closed. (I wonder if I try hooking it up the way he discribed would work?)

2- The R8222 relay(assuming there is one)I didn't look to hard I was really looking for circuit boards. All that was in the boiler panel was a junction box with the transformer on top and wires going to the gas valve, There is a low water shut off on the side of the boiler but I don't think that's playing any role? Only reason I believe the relay is bad because I disconnected the actuator (all 5 wires, the white&black(assuming 24v power in for motor and a red,white,green) the green I believe connected to the blue thermostat wire in another junction on the ceiling. It maybe possible that the actuator is sending a call for heat but I cant narrow that down until I replace the relay or get a voltmeter on it.

3- The actuator circuit board, I'm hoping it don't need to be replaced because I cant source one, hopefully a call to Honeywell will fix that but there web page didn't show the correct board when I looked up parts for the actuator. I know it's self-setting so I don't know if messing with the auger screw trying to set ti that way will do any good. The manual says you could mess with the pot but didn't get that far yet.


I'm going to draw a map and take some photos of the setup when I get up there. I gotta take the kiddie trick or treating but hopefully I could talk the ol'lady into it.

I really appreciate any help please feel free to throw anything out there that may help...or even ways to test or something to look for..
I think I have the general idea but many minds are better than my pea brain...

Thanks again for taking the time to look..


(PS..Thats the second time I wrote this out and when I tried to submit it it has me sign in and I loose everything...whats up with that?GI2)
 
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Old 10-31-11, 12:13 PM
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still -

Originally Posted by SeaWeed89 View Post
(PS..Thats the second time I wrote this out and when I tried to submit it it has me sign in and I loose everything...whats up with that?GI2)
Hello, If you are using Windows, this might help:
While in the midst of composing a reply do the following
Control+A(select all,) then Control+C(copy,) every few minutes.
Control+A selects everything in the reply window, Control+C saves it to the clipboard. If you get timed out, just sign in again open a new reply and
Control+V(paste) to paste the contents of the clipboard and your back.
Remember to repeat the process until the reply posts successfully.

Peter
 
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Old 10-31-11, 12:30 PM
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Hi Peter,
Yes, I do usually copy what I wrote but I figured since I just signed in again I'd just submit it...
I thought maybe there was something I was missing on this forum but it's the same as a saltwater reef forum I'm usually on.
Thanks for the tip though. Wont let it happen again as my first post was detailed and didn't have the nerve to do it again.
:repostit:
 
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Old 10-31-11, 02:59 PM
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I elected to stay logged in so I have never had that problem.
 
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Old 11-01-11, 09:48 AM
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Hi Everyone,

I didn't get to go up to the boiler last night but hoping to do so today and get some photos.

I was hoping someone could tell me if a Hunter model# 44155C thermo
would work?

The manual is here: http://www.hunterfanhq.com/tools/sal...ners/41778.pdf

Any direction would be very helpful...
Thank you
 
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Old 11-01-11, 09:59 AM
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No. It will not work. When not heating it must send a signal through Y. This is required for proper operation. You need one of the stats I mentioned before.
 
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Old 11-01-11, 10:05 AM
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Thanks HVAC
Figured I had to ask.
 
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Old 11-01-11, 08:33 PM
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I found a yoyo stat that will work for you T87K1007
 
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