Taco 00 Circulator.. thoughts?

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  #81  
Old 11-28-11, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by rbeck View Post
The only thing I see that I don't like is the auto air vents on the secondary manifold.
I don't have any. Maybe you see tees or valves? only vent in the photo is the spiro. Terrible photo, I know.

I was thinking of putting an air vent downstream of the secondary piping isolated by a ball valve. Bad idea?
 
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Old 12-03-11, 02:22 PM
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HBVs...

Got 2 HBVs.. they are ball valves without handles. Disappointed...
 
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Old 12-04-11, 04:35 PM
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better photos





ANybody ever put a vac gauge between the tigerloop and the burner? Instructions say not to put anything that would interfere with flow.
 
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Old 12-04-11, 04:41 PM
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What made your moonshine go black?
 
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Old 12-04-11, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by drooplug View Post
What made your moonshine go black?
I'm not sure what's in there.. but it ain't moonshine. Not knowing what it is.. don't know how to dispose of it.
 
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Old 12-04-11, 07:07 PM
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Did it come with the building and did you ever open it and give it a whiff?

That's the worst part about trying to comply with disposal laws. I know for where I live, I can take certain hazardous materials to the county, but they need to be in the original labeled container. Kinda makes hard for a homeowner to comply.
 
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Old 12-04-11, 07:37 PM
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did you ever open it and give it a whiff?
My wife once did that with a detergent bottle she found by my workbench... boy was she ever surprised!

Being in a glass bottle, and working with big heavy pipe and stuff, I think it wise to get that thing out of the way! We don't want you turning into the 'Toxic Avenger" !

Looks good so far Tim! What did you do, build a pedestal to mount the TL on? cool idea! Show us a bigger pic of that if you get a chance. I might steal your idea.

This is what I did with the last one I installed:



I've never put a vac gauge between a TL and the burner, not sure why one would want to? The one you've got on the inlet side is enough, non?

This is a slick way to mount 'double filters'... steel nipple, shelf bracket, u-bolt...

 
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Old 12-05-11, 03:21 AM
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Ingenius idea on the double filters.. will have to file that one away for future reference.

I used a strut base to mount the TL. I am not too keen on mounting stuff to the sheetmetal cowl of the burner.

Thoughts on the vac gauge between TL Ultra (I think I neglected to say 'Ultra' before) and burner.. to see if the spin-on filter is clogged.

 
  #89  
Old 12-05-11, 09:36 AM
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INdirect sizing

Looks like I will be replacing the indirect HW heater as well.

Possibility of 3 showers and laundry at the same time. No whirlpool tubs.

Given my 170k heating capacity, what do you guys think of the Superstor SSU-45? Will do continuous 3.95gpm with 161k.

Any advantage to oversizing the tank?

The Buderus LT-200 will do 2.42gpm continuous with 109k and holds 53 gallons. However that is also based on 209f water versus superstor at 200f. However, it holds 53 gallons.

So, smaller tank with higher continuous output, or larger tank with reduced continuous output..

Any other good tanks I should look at? I looked at the Smart 50.
 
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Old 12-05-11, 03:57 PM
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I am not too keen on mounting stuff to the sheetmetal cowl of the burner.
I wouldn't be either if I had a brandy new Budy. Although, I might think about bending out a bracket that looks like it came from the factory... and paint it blue.

neglected to say 'Ultra'
Ahhh... I see... I like the separate filter. But really, what possible obstruction to flow would a tee with a vac gauge present? I haven't changed the spin-on filter on my setup yet. I think this may be going on it's fifth year. I have to change the pre-filter every year of course, and sometimes twice depending on the quality of oil I get. With a fresh pre-filter, I'm still hanging low... hmmmm... maybe there's nothing even IN that spin-on ?

Any other good tanks I should look at?
How about that 'stone-lined' one that Burnham sells? I don't have any experience with it... just sayin'
 
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Old 12-15-11, 04:24 AM
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indirect decisions...

supply house pointed me at a "Heat Flo" indirects. At first glance they looked to good to be true.

upon further investigation they need a 14gpm flow rate! 1" tappings on the indirect.

Decided to go with a 45g superstor.

Had to show my bricklaying skills as I bricked up the existing basement window (leaving space for the concentric vent to be inserted). It looks good, but takes me way too long.

Add that I have to use lime mortar with the old bricks.. more time.

Hoping to get fired up this weekend. We'll see.
 
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Old 12-15-11, 04:39 AM
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Good move i think Tim.
Last summer over at the oil company garage acoss the way from where i live, i saw 2 brand new looking Heat-flos. They were pulled out and being sent back due to leaks.

Peter
 
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Old 02-03-12, 02:03 PM
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Hey, Hello Its Tim,
How did this job ever make out?


Peter
 
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Old 02-03-12, 02:11 PM
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The job...

Oh.. it is going.

I just got the pipe insulation and some double-pole switches.

I set the boiler pumps up on a separate relay from the burners so the control can do post-purge.

Downside is when you turn the burner off, the pump will still run.

The direct vent kit was a complete fiasco, with wrong parts, un-needed parts and so on. I *knew* the direct-vent kits were a hassle, which is why I was *extremely* specific from day 1, but it still got all screwed up.

Field controls won't send out parts; you can buy the concentric termination, or the entire kit. There were parts checked off in the packing list that weren't in the box.

I don't have the second boiler in yet. I will take some update photos.

Tim
 
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Old 02-05-12, 03:45 PM
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photos as promised

Unexpected addition to the workload:






Direct Vent from hell (and my handy brickwork)




There's a lot of freakin wires




More Electric (top boxes are line voltage, bottom boxes are sensor wiring)




Command Central



I'm reusing the Honeywell relays I have.. so that's what the 4 offsets are for. Installed a CO alarm. 5 switches to turn off the 4 zone circs and the DHW pump for servicing.
 
  #96  
Old 02-05-12, 05:31 PM
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That's nice work Tim!

I see you didn't try the Taco 00 Delta T on the system loop.

Peter
 
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Old 02-06-12, 02:43 AM
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No, not yet. The unexpected $$$ for the IDHW put the brakes on a couple of things. I wanted to use Tekmar TN4 tstats on the radiant zones, have all new pumps, a new 4 zone relay and new expansion tank.. well, none of that is happening.. for now.
 
  #98  
Old 05-04-12, 05:40 PM
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I logged in to post some photos and share my thoughts on the project. The system logged me out while drafting and I lost everything but the "auto saved" portion of the message.. which was the first 3 lines of a lengthy post.

Short version:
-still running just the one Buderus. Runs freakin great. The direct vent is impressive. No smell.
-still planning to use a Taco Delta-T as the system pump. Using an old taco on one of the zones ATM. When I replace the system pump I will move it over to the zone.
-I insulated the near-boiler piping with 1" fiberglass. First time using fiberglass and I love it! A few missing pieces to finish up.
-project grew exponentially and I ended up repiping about 75% of the hydronic pipes in the basement. Little things like a monoflo system with no monoflow tees (well, about 2 of 6 takeoffs had them)
-still need to get Tekmar stats, motors for the mixers and whatever else I need to make it work.

System was up and running just in time for the weather to get warm, so I didn't get to see how it truly performs. I manually tuned the mix temps and flows but will dfinitely have to get the motors for the mixers due to my setup.

Exchanged email with Tekmar support and am more confused then ever on the TN4 bus. Seems like it should be simple but I just scratch my head.

Wil;l be looking to instal Tekmar stats before heating season begins. No sure if I need a zone manager or what. Anybody here speak TN4?
 
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Old 05-27-12, 04:43 AM
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Hi Tim,
I think i have the tn4 thing figured out.
Stay tuned.
Been busy on the buffer install, gardening/yard work and taking care of mom.

I know exactly what you mean about exponential growth.
The stuff i've done will never pay for itself, but the comfort factor should be well worth it. Plus, being that's it sort of a hobby, i'm having fun just the same.
It's already too late to post before pictures, but "real soon now" i'll post some pics of where things stand.
I went over the edge on Tekmar toys.
There is a huge box of controllers, motors, thermostats, etc. waiting for install.
Do you have a specific question on the tn4?
I'll post some of my understanding of it in a few days or so.

Peter
 
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Old 05-27-12, 05:31 AM
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Hi Peter!

My thinking has changed, so I think my question at this point is.. what's the cheapest way to accomplish what I need to do.

I already have the controller as noted in this thread; I need to add 4 zones, two of which are CI radiator and two of which are radiant and require motorized mixer control.

I will be installing Tekmar thermostats in each zone.

I was looking at the 441 for each of the two radiant zones, but wonder if there is a better way to do it. Perhaps the 440 or 444 with the 741 mixing motor (appears more expensive).

However, I think I need to start with a 336 zone manager?

For the little bit of the winter that the boiler was in use I ended up making it warm start and manually setting the mix temps. I definitely need to change that for next season.

Lastly........ I am strongly considering making the second boiler gas fired. Looking for thoughts on what boilers should be under consideration. I'm digging the Lochinvar, but unsure how the modulation will work in conjunction with the Tekmar boiler control.
Tim
 
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Old 05-27-12, 11:36 AM
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Hi Tim,
As far as i understand it, a 336 or similar can not control mixing valves.
To do so, i think you would need a tn4 reset control, ie 400, 420 series.
It is conceivable that one of the high tech tn4 thermostats could control a mixing valve.
Did Tekmar tell that such a direct connection was possible?

I wish you hadn't spent the $$ on the 274.
A 423 or similar could control both type of boilers itself and send the tn4 info to mixing vale controllers.


Tim you're gonna hate me 'cause i think it gets worse.
The 274 is not directly compatible with tn4 400 series reset controls.
Although it can work independently to set the boiler water temps based on
ODR.


Peter
 
  #102  
Old 05-27-12, 12:23 PM
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Tekmar said the stats could connect directly to the 274 and control the mix temp. I didn't get more detail then that.

The problem is controlling the circulators in that scenario.

I have to dig out the wiring schematics and see what they have to say.

EDIT: Their wiring diagram does show the 274 connected to a 335 *phew* That would get me the two CI zones, which would operate on outdoor reset per the 274.

Now is just a question of getting the tstats, motor and 274 talking, which I think is possible. IIRC they have tstats in which you set the design parameters, the stats communicate with the 274 and the mixers.. I think.

Tim
 
  #103  
Old 05-27-12, 12:32 PM
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Here is what Tekmar told me:

Upgrading to a communicating thermostat would give you the benefit of Indoor Temperature Feedback, which would allow the zones to tell the boiler the lowest required temperature and improve on the outdoor reset curve.

I would recommend the tekmarNet Thermostat 552, which is a 2 wire tN4 thermostat (you currently only have 2 wires from your Honeywell thermostat). Details on the 552 can be found on our website at: tekmarNet Thermostat 552 .
Tim
 
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Old 05-27-12, 04:47 PM
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Opps,
I stand corrected Tim,

Having a closer look at at the 274 shows the tn4 connection on pin 1.
You have all zone pumpos and no zone valves correct?
If so, then you want a 336 not a 336.

When i priced it out, a 441 moto with integral control, was cheaper than a 440 control and a 741 motor.

But i still don't understand how to get two separate mixing temperatures.
As far as i understand it, each mix temperature requires a separate tn4 bus.
But the 274 and the 335/336 only have one tn4 bus connection.
The 337 has two separate tn4 buses, but again, unless the thermostat can control the 441 directly, i don't understand how it would work.

Beyond all that, i'm not sure you even need a 335/6 because the 441 can run the zone pump directly.
But again, a 441 needs what they call a "System Control" to tell it what the temperature should be. afaik. and hopefully i'm wrong.


Peter
 
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Old 05-27-12, 05:14 PM
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Tekmar said the stats could connect directly to the 274 and control the mix temp. I didn't get more detail then that.
"the mix temp."
They did not say two separate mix temperatures.

hmm....


Peter
 
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Old 05-27-12, 05:43 PM
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Yes, it is confusing. For all of the wonderful wiring diagrams they have, Tekmar is very light on the basics.

If I read the instructions correctly, you can assign the tstats to a specific bus when you configure the tstat. I think ultimately you need the 337 to create an additional bus so you can have 2 mix temps.

You could connect a 441 to the TN4 "B" bus at the 337 (pin 1). Not sure where the "A" bus is?

Wonder if you can connect the 441 to the same terminals as the thermostat?

Seems expensive all around.
 

Last edited by ItsTim; 05-27-12 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 05-28-12, 03:54 AM
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Expensive for sure!

If you want to save money, you could opt for a fixed- 120-130? water temp for the radiant and control the room temp the old fashion way by on-off thermostat action.

A 337 doesn't help you much because it's made for zone valves.
The 552 is the most expensive T stat they make.
Great to have, but not mandatory.


If i understand correctly, you want a 3 temperature system?
Yes, top shelf expensive.

1 for each floor radiant and 1 for the rest?

I believe the 274 control does outdoor reset based on the outdoor sensor.
This temperature may or may not be hot enough to heat the space.
If there is something connected to the 274 tn4 input, then that tn4 bus can tell the 274 exactly what water temperature it needs. ie Indoor feedback added to the 274. A more perfect/precise control.

The problem is only one tn4 bus can connect to the 274.
In a three temp system, there are 3 separate tn4 buses.
This is called a tn4 network.

What's needed is a 42x control to aggregate the 3 different bus temps, but as far as i can tell, these controls can not quite connect to a 274 in a pure manner.

More later, but first a,
Question:
Does the non radiant zone(s) always need hotter water then the radiant?

Peter
 
  #108  
Old 05-28-12, 04:59 AM
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Admittedly I never figured the EDR of the CI rads, so the question of water temps for the CI zone is unknown. CI rads are flying on ODR right now.

I wonder if you can connect a TN4 thermostat directly to the 441 or a 444 as an independent solution (x2) and use a relay to create a boiler demand.

If a Zone Manager is not used:
Connect tN4 on the 444 to tN4 on another tN4 device
on the same mix tN4 bus.
Connect C on the 444 to C on another tN4 device on
the same mix tN4 bus.
In that manner the boiler would be operating on ODR and the radiant would be operating on IDR.

The CI zones would remain simple on-off and fire the boiler to whatever the ODR curve determines.

Tim
 
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Old 05-28-12, 11:13 AM
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Hey Tim,
I have a pile of tn4 thermostats and one 441.
Sorry i can't promise when i'll get the time to try and test it out for you.
But certainly before fall.

A zone manager is not required, but it makes the wiring easy, sort of like using a zvc50x, but not quite the same.

There are numerous references in the literature where they state a "system control" is required to operate mixing valves.

Peter
 
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Old 05-28-12, 01:32 PM
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Yeah, there is more research to be done. I should just contact Tekmar and ask. I almost went and took their training seminar.. Guess I should have.

Worst case I'll just go old school with independent mixing controls.
 
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Old 06-06-12, 05:29 PM
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Tekmar says 423, 336 and two 441. Expensive..

Could use 336 with two tn4 stats for the CI zones. Two 360's with indoor sensors for indoor feedback. 360's wired to 336 as simple close contact. Saves about 100 bucks. Still expensive..

Cheapest way out is two 360's with motorized valves and forget the whole tn4 thing. I would probably still add the remote sensors for indoor feedback.

With so many mix temps and a non-modulating boiler, the tn4 begins to lose appeal at the pricepoint.

Lets say the system needs a 110 mix temp and I had all the bells and whistles to communicate via tn4. The boiler still needs a return temp of 130 (boiler min), so it is gonna fire to boiler target, which I guess would be 130. Sounds like a short cycle nightmare.

One could set boiler diff manually and at least get it to fire to 150 or so.

Point being the expense of communicating that a zone needs 110 water really isn't worth it with a bang bang boiler.. imho.
 
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Old 03-04-13, 02:46 PM
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Back from the dead...

Hey guys,

A 1-year-ish update for you.

Boiler has been running terrific. Servicing is same as any other boiler. Nozzle, filter, check the combustion.

Burns cleaner that you would think, even a year after the service. No oil smell.

Just checked the oil consumption. Over the course of 1 year we saved 1050 gallons of oil by installing the new boiler!

Things I would do different.. pipe the supplies and returns on different headers.

Should have gone with the Tekmar 423 et al.. and it is being considered as the next upgrade. Replacing the existing controller and going to indoor feedback. It's easy to start considering that when you just saved over $4k in a year on oil.

Tim
 
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