Circulator Pump runs 24/7

Reply

  #1  
Old 11-19-11, 07:29 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 8
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Circulator Pump runs 24/7

Hi everyone,

First time poster, but I've found the info on this site to be very helpful - thank you.

I have a gas-fired Weil-McLain CGa boiler with four zones, each with a White-Rodgers 1361 zone valve and each with its own thermostat.

I replaced my Taco circulator pump yesterday and I'm now noticing that the wiring -- from an external 24V transformer across the zone valves and back into the boiler control panel -- is causing the circulator pump to run all the time, even when there is no call for heat.

First of all, is this an issue that I need to be concerned about. I worry that if the zone valves are closed, that the pump is not moving any water and could potentially overheat. Maybe it's not a concern as we're dealing with 200 degree water anyway.

If it is an issue though, is there a way to rewire the zone valves so that the circulator pump only runs when a zone calls for it? Do I need a relay to make that happen, or can the board in the boiler handle that.

Any advice is appreciated.

Thanks,
Siamese
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 11-19-11, 09:51 PM
Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 1,819
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
the circulator should cut out when ALL the Zvalves are not calling. If this just started when you replaced the valve, then you likely miswired something
 
  #3  
Old 11-19-11, 10:31 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 8
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Thanks for the reply.

It wasn't a zvalve that I replaced, it was the circulator pump, so the wiring is still the original. I hadn't noticed it before, because the original pump wasn't working.

I assumed the pump should cut out, but the wiring instructions for the zvalve don't seem to show my case where I have an external transformer and no relay. I guess my question is, can it be wired correctly without a relay? Are there some wiring instructions/diagrams that anyone can share?

Thanks Again.
 
  #4  
Old 11-20-11, 12:42 AM
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 2,446
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I really wouldn't even think of repairing my own boiler as there are too many things that can go wrong. I did look at a website that was designed by a plumber and he said the same thing that there are just too many things that can go wrong. I own a house with a boiler that I rent out and I have told my tenants to leave things alone as that is what I was always told to do by the professionals.
That being said though there is one thing you might be able to do safely and that is get a new thermostat. The plumber on the website I mentioned talked about how the thermostat sends instructions to the pump in getting it to work. If your thermostat was recently replaced it could be defective or even the wrong kind. Sometimes you need a single stage thermostat or a two stage thermostat which is what my rental house needs it need a two stage thermostat. How to tell you ask? I will tell you what they told me if you have an air conditioner system in the attic and a boiler downstairs in your basement and it is run off of the same thermostat then you need a two stage thermostat if not then a single stage will work. Other than changing the thermostat once I haven't done anything with our system with the boiler it just isn't worth the few dollars I might save as I want that safe. Please call a professional in this is not a do it yourself job.
 
  #5  
Old 11-20-11, 05:24 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 8
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Thanks for the reply, Hedgeclippers.

The thermostats are fine. They call when they are supposed to.

The issue is that the zone valves are miswired (probably done by a pro), causing the pump to never shut off.

For what it's worth, I'm not big on the "leave it to pros" argument. Using websites like these, anyone can amass the knowledge needed to do what the pros do. Obviously caution is needed when working with machinery that uses natural gas and creates carbon monoxide, but I've seen many a "pro" in my day that didn't know very much either. I attempt to learn as much as I can about how something works so that I can do myself - saving money and making sure it's done correctly at the same time.

Thanks again.
 
  #6  
Old 11-20-11, 06:00 AM
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 4,947
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
There are certain things in the boiler that would require a pro. However, most issues like the one being discussed can be fixed by a DIY'er. Siamese will probably learn a lot about how their boiler operates in the process of fixing this problem as well.

You circulator should be turned on and off by the boiler controls. A bad thermostat is not going to cause this problem. Is your system still heating and it just won't turn off the circulator when the zones are satisfied?
 
  #7  
Old 11-20-11, 06:18 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 8
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Yes - system runs fine. Pump just won't turn off.

The wiring as it's currently done doesn't make sense to me. The wiring across the zones is all daisy chained. Let me describe it as best as I can.

There are five terminals on each Zvalve. Let's call the ones on top 1,2,3 and the ones on the bottom 4 & 5. Power from the transformer goes to 1 & 4 of the first Zvalve. That is daisy chained to 1&4 of all the other Zvalves. The thermostat for each zone goes to 2&3. There is a green wire daisy chained between #5 on each Zvalve. The wire back to the boiler control panel is coming from the last Zvalve and is across 1 and 2 - this is the part that doesn't make sense to me.

Please let me know if you have any ideas. Thanks.
 
  #8  
Old 11-20-11, 06:50 AM
Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: upstate New York
Posts: 397
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
circulator

Certainly no pro here, but the systems I'm familiar with have the thermostat controlling the zone valve motor, the zone valve end switch signalling the aquastat, and the aquastat controlling the boiler operation and the circulator. If your system works like this,
(and it may be set up differently) it sounds like a problem with the aquastat. Pros will be along soon I'm sure. Good luck, Steve
 
  #9  
Old 11-20-11, 07:49 AM
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 4,947
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Here is the manual for your zone valve:

http://www.emersonclimate.com/en-US/.../0037-5422.pdf

[edit NJT: also found this 'supplement']

http://www.emersonclimate.com/en-US/.../0037-2304.pdf

Take a look at that and see if it will help you. I'm not familiar with your zone valve and how it operates. I did take a peak at the manual to see if I could weigh in on how your system is wired. It seems like it might be wrong though I am unsure.

My question is did the circulator always run? Is this something that perhaps you didn't notice?
 

Last edited by NJT; 11-20-11 at 09:05 AM. Reason: I have my reasons...
  #10  
Old 11-20-11, 09:34 AM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
Siam, what is the circulator wired to?

What control is on the boiler ? (aquastat make/model) ?

To what terminals on this boiler control do the two wires from the valves connect?

Does the green wire that's daisy-chained between the valves go anywhere else? or is it just between the valves and that's it?

One important thing to note when dealing with these valves is that terminals (real terminal numbers from the install sheet) 2 and 5 are internally connected inside the valve and may be used interchangeably, so don't get confused by that fact.

Please refer to the attached PDF and use the terminal numbers in there so we can figure this out...
 
  #11  
Old 11-20-11, 11:31 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 8
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Siam, what is the circulator wired to?
There's a board in the boiler that has a connector for the circulator. The board is called an "Integrated Boiler Control, Model 1107-2"

What control is on the boiler ? (aquastat make/model) ?
Not sure. I don't see a make/model. It looks like the aquastat has one wire that goes to the hood (to make sure the damper is open?) and another that runs down near the plenum

To what terminals on this boiler control do the two wires from the valves connect?
They connect to a wire coming out of the boiler marked "Thermostat"

Does the green wire that's daisy-chained between the valves go anywhere else? or is it just between the valves and that's it? No, it's just between the 4 valves. It's on terminal #3 (the real one)

One important thing to note when dealing with these valves is that terminals (real terminal numbers from the install sheet) 2 and 5 are internally connected inside the valve and may be used interchangeably, so don't get confused by that fact.
It looks like the wire that goes to the thermostat wire is connected to terminals 2 and 5. If these terminals are internally connected, no wonder my circuit is always closed and the boiler thinks there's a thermostat calling.

Please refer to the attached PDF and use the terminal numbers in there so we can figure this out...[/QUOTE]

I'm thinking that the solution is to hook up the wire from the last valve to terminals 1 and 3, therefore completing the circuit only when a thermostat is calling. It seems like this would work based on what my meter is telling me. I'm getting 24V across these terminals when a zone is open and 1.5V when it's closed.

Should I give it a shot?

Thanks for your help!
 
  #12  
Old 11-20-11, 02:58 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
Let me take a quick look at your boiler manual...

I believe that if it is mis-wired the way I believe it is would mean that the burner itself would fire all the time also... standby...
 
  #13  
Old 11-20-11, 03:21 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 8
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Thanks for doing the research. The burner is not firing all the time; it comes on as expected/necessary. It's just the pump that runs all the time.
 
  #14  
Old 11-20-11, 03:31 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
In the following clip from your previous post, I'm going to replace your numbers with the actual terminal numbers on the valve. I'd like you to look at it and confirm that the substitutions I've made are correct.

There are five terminals on each Zvalve. Let's call the ones on top 2,5,4 and the ones on the bottom 1 & 3. Power from the transformer goes to 2 & 1 of the first Zvalve. That is daisy chained to 2 & 1 of all the other Zvalves. The thermostat for each zone goes to 5 & 4. There is a green wire daisy chained between #3 on each Zvalve. The wire back to the boiler control panel is coming from the last Zvalve and is across 2 & 5- this is the part that doesn't make sense to me.
You said:

It looks like the wire that goes to the thermostat wire is connected to terminals 2 and 5. If these terminals are internally connected, no wonder my circuit is always closed and the boiler thinks there's a thermostat calling.
Absolutely. But this would also cause the burner to fire if the water temp limit switch was not satisfied... and you seem to be saying that you don't notice the burner firing at unexpected times. Hmmmmm...

What is the temp setting of the limit switch?

I mean, a heat call is a heat call... and wiring the t'stat wires from the CGa to terminals 2 & 5 results in what is basically a CONSTANT call for heat!

I hope that there's nothing else wrong... did you say how long have you been living with this system?

You said:

I'm thinking that the solution is to hook up the wire from the last valve to terminals 1 and 3, therefore completing the circuit only when a thermostat is calling. It seems like this would work based on what my meter is telling me. I'm getting 24V across these terminals when a zone is open and 1.5V when it's closed.
NO... refer to figure 9 in the PDF... The terminals T1 and T2 in that drawing are analogous to the black wires coming from your boiler for the thermostat connection.

The wires to the thermostat circuit on the CGa should be wired to ( 2 OR 5 ) AND 3 on the zone valves. In other words, leave one of the wires from the boiler on (2 or 5), and move the other wire on (2 or 5) to 3. You should only have to move one wire to correct this.

HedgeClippers, ya see why this IS a DIY solution? How much a pro would have charged for this?

If the terminal number substitutions I've made above are correct, everything else with the wiring of the valves appears correct.
 

Last edited by NJT; 11-20-11 at 04:10 PM.
  #15  
Old 11-20-11, 03:48 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 8
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
The replacements you made to the terminal numbers are correct.

The temp setting on the limit switch is 190 degrees.

I think I misunderstood your question. Yes, the boiler fires all the time to keep the water at heating temp. It cuts out when the limit is reached. It's worked that way since we moved in last December - I thought that's way it was supposed to work. I think you're telling me that it's only supposed to fire when there's a call for heat AND the water temp is low. That makes more sense and sounds much more energy efficient.

I'll try hooking up the thermostat to 2 and 3 and see what happens. I'll let you know.
 
  #16  
Old 11-20-11, 04:05 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
I'll try hooking up the thermostat to 2 and 3 and see what happens. I'll let you know.
NONONONO!

The thermostats stay on 4 and 5... the wires that go to the boiler go on (2 OR 5) AND 3.

I think that's what you meant, but just in case something was misunderstood!

The temp setting on the limit switch is 190 degrees.
Turn it down to 180F

It's worked that way since we moved in last December - I thought that's way it was supposed to work. I think you're telling me that it's only supposed to fire when there's a call for heat AND the water temp is low. That makes more sense and sounds much more energy efficient.
Yes... if there is no heat call, that boiler would and should go stone cold.

So you had to turn the boiler off during the summer then?

OMG, you are gonna wanna buy me a truck load of beer when you see how much money you save on fuel this winter!

What is the source of your domestic hot water? Separate water heater?
 
  #17  
Old 11-20-11, 04:06 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 8
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
IT WORKS!!!! :HF2:

Thanks a million, NJ Trooper. I really appreciate your help. If you ever make it to Chicago, I owe you a cold one.

To close out your questions:

I misposted - I hooked up the wire to the boiler to #2 and #3.

I'll turn down the limit to 180.

Yes - I turned off the boiler over the summer and any time there was a warm spell in fall or spring.

Yes - separate hot water heater for domestic use (and a gas heater for the pool as well). I'm heating water all over the place!!

Thanks Again.
 
  #18  
Old 11-20-11, 04:13 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
YEAH! That's what I'm talking about!

I'll give ya a yell next time I'm out your way... but be prepared, I like beer!

You shouldn't have to mess with turning the boiler on/off anymore.

Good Luck!
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: